What's new

Iranian Air Defense Systems

VEVAK

SENIOR MEMBER
Oct 24, 2013
2,391
1
3,514
What has Iran contributed to military aviation regarding strategic and tactical doctrines to emboldened you to criticize US in those arenas?


Here is what I said again...

- In a fight, you win not by fighting under your opponent's rules, but by forcing him to fight under yours. And cheating is allowed.

The advice was meant for air combat, not for inter-state relations.

In air combat, any advantage you have is a rule. Simply put, no fighter is perfect. Each fighter have strengths and weaknesses. If you have a longer radar range, keep the fight, and the kills, under that advantage. If you can out turn under a certain altitude, take the fight to that altitude. If you have superior acceleration, do not engage in a turning fight. This goes back to WW I, refined in tactics in WW II, and we tries to embed some of that logic and algorithm into the hardware today. An area that your Iran do not have expertise in.

The 'cheating' I was referring to was in trickery, deception, mislead, seduction, enhancement, basically, anything an air force can do outside of the individual fighters to put the enemy fighters into inferior postures. AWACS is cheating because the AWACS platform extends the battlespace vision and gives its fighters 'unnatural' advantage. The word 'unnatural' does not mean Mother Nature but in reference to the jet's designed-in features and capabilities. In-flight refueling is another form of 'cheating' because it extends the fighter's fuel capacity in another 'unnatural' way. These two capabilities enhanced US airpower to the point that we are essentially unchallenged anywhere we fly. Another form of 'cheating' is data links and sharing, not just between manned but also with unmanned platforms. People mocks US pilots for not wanting to fight without these assets but they are wrong. Foolishly wrong. Whatever you have you must take to the fight because this is war, not a boxing match with a trophy at the end.

What you said about 'cheating' revealed your ignorance and I do not blame you for that ignorance. You may have served but I doubt you served in any meaningful way beyond your two-yrs commitment. I already knew how to fly before I joined the USAF. Instead of spending my money on cars, I spent on flight lessons after school. You did not understand the context of what I posted because you have no relevant experience in military aviation.


You do not know what you are talking about. When I said this...

- Low and slow, you go. Fast and high, you die.

It does not specify exact altitude/airspeed combination for every situation. When I was on the F-111, we trained for low altitude terrain following (TF) flights at near Mach. But even so, flight planning often have the F-111 at above 10k in some situations and lower in others. The advice is meant for keeping a low flight profile after the lessons learned from the XB-70 program and the U-2 shoot down incident.

Again...You have no relevant military aviation experience and your Iran do not contribute to the arts and crafts of air warfare since the beginning of aviation in general, but here you are making pronouncements against a potential opponent who have been in the lead in aviation since the first flight.


I have been reserved about the Q-313 out of respect for my fellow airmen, even for Iran, but now I will opine: The Q-313 is a fake.

Just about everything of the jet seems wrong for a manned platform. If I am proven wrong in the coming days, I have no problems with it. But I doubt Iran will be able to pull it off. In Iran, maybe for public consumption. But for experienced professionals, the Q-313 is a fraud. I wait for the day when I am proven wrong.


And it is really sad for you that you think that just because you lifted that quote somewhere in the Internet, it make valid your criticism of the F-35. I know what 9g feels like. You do not.

https://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/f-35-faces-most-critical-test-180971734/

The F-35 have been flown by experienced pilots from partner countries and your maneuvering capabilities criticism are done for, as in no longer valid. It is sad for your critical thinking skills, or lack thereof, that you do not recognize how far behind you really are. If the F-35 is as inferior as you believes, the chorus of objections from our partners' pilots would have been obvious by now, instead, the jet increasingly received affirmation even over inevitable birthing pains of a new platform. And who has not experienced such?


I will go out on a limb and say this: The F-35s on the USS America WILL decimate Iran's F-14s without the F-35 pilots breaking 6gs.


Like I said earlier -- When your Iran contribute to military aviation, you can criticize what we do on our jets. When your F-14s starts dropping out of the sky from directions unknown you will realize how revolutionary the F-35 really is. :enjoy:


So what is up with it? What did I said that was wrong? If it is so easy to filter out 'stealth' then why are the Russians and Chinese investing in something that is supposedly figured out?

Your statement is complete ignorance. And I say that kindly.

If the distance is close enough, any radar will pick up the F-117 or F-22. The US never made any claim about being 'invisible'. The word 'invisible' is largely a media hype word. The technically correct phrase that the USAF used is 'low radar observable'. The operative word is 'observable'. Not 'invisible'. It means the seeking radar can 'see' the F-117 but only at very short distance. It was not 'today' like you absurdly stated but have ALWAYS been that way. I have used the phrase 'low radar observable' on this forum since '09. Your continuing mischaracterization of the concept is why I have no problems saying I understand the concept better than you do.
It's funny when faced with facts you either revert back to brining Iran in to a conversation about the F-35 or much like Trump you fall into a rather predictable narcissistic mentality of me, me, me, I know better than you......

As for the Q-313 I wouldn't disagree that the project started out as a fraud however in a sense that it was a fraudulent attempt to steal money from Iran's military budget and NOT some absurd fake project meant for public consumption. If the Iranian government wanted to build a large mockup of a fighter they never intended to produce they would have done a far better job because if the goal was a fake project for public consumption they would have simply built a fake mockup of a supersonic fighter with fake slats and all with 2 larger jet engines (~the size of J79's or larger) and if the attempt was the Iranian governments attempt to fool the public they would have grabbed an F-5 HUD from storage they would have placed one larger screen in the middle with 2 MFD on either side all of which Iran has at it's disposal. Point is if it was a fake attempt by the Iranian government to fool the public they would have done far better job then that absurd design.

And NO they haven't always been that way because back in the 80's & 90's most radars in the world depending on the country would have simply filtered out anything about the size of a bird since by the most part they lacked the processing power and software to be equipped with proper filters that could differentiate. And when you say short ranges it really depends on what you mean by short! And stealth or low rcs back then had far more value then it does today.

As for F-14's and even Iranian built F-5's going up against the F-35's it really depends on what type of Radar and missile they have been upgraded with and in whos air space this fictional battle is to take place. However if your simply talking 1 on 1 with each aircrafts standard radar and missiles then of course the F-35 would not only win but could easily achieve a far greater than 10-1 kill ratio because it be pretty sad if the F-35 couldn't even match up against America's own 70's era technology. However equip each aircraft with the same sensors, weapons system and missiles and those advantages start to go away for that is the true test of a platforms capability and NOT it's ability to be equipped with more advanced sensors then America's own 70's era technology.

As for knowing what an Aircrafts Max G means I'm pretty sure I've known that since high school which was decades ago! LOL! However It's becoming more clear to me that you obviously had to look that up after I schooled you....
 

gambit

PROFESSIONAL
Apr 28, 2009
25,435
138
23,387
Country
United States
Location
United States
It's funny when faced with facts you either revert back to brining Iran in to a conversation about the F-35 or much like Trump you fall into a rather predictable narcissistic mentality of me, me, me, I know better than you......
The facts you presented are old and gone. A rehash of the discredited Pierre Sprey and Air Power Australia.

As for Iran and/or her agents criticizing US...

In military history, there are points where there is no return to the old ways. The bow and arrow, mobile armor, the machine gun, the airplane, etc. These are technology points. Then there are points where an army developed tactics that gave battlefield advantages for as long as it can exploit those tactics. The Roman phalanx is one example.

The US military have done more than all -- in terms of technology -- create those non-returnable points. An army that has only single shot rifles cannot conceptualize what possible combat tactics that a machine gun can create. Same with airpower. A country that is landlocked cannot imagine what it is like to fight at sea.

The Iranian Air Force is like that army with single shot rifles going up against the USAF with machine guns. Not only are you outgunned but also outnumbered and a long list of technology superiority that no amount of screaming 'Iran is not Iraq' can help. What I said you can call it narcissism if you like, but I call it as I see it -- reality. A cold bucket of cold reality to the face. With Desert Storm, I know what we can do in actual battles where people die. With two Red Flags, I know what we can do for the future. And that is a bleak future for any opposition air.

And NO they haven't always been that way because back in the 80's & 90's most radars in the world depending on the country would have simply filtered out anything about the size of a bird since by the most part they lacked the processing power and software to be equipped with proper filters that could differentiate. And when you say short ranges it really depends on what you mean by short! And stealth or low rcs back then had far more value then it does today.
What you said revealed your ignorance about radar detection in general, let alone of 'stealth'.

The concept of the radar cross section (RCS) have been known since the invention of radar itself. An RCS is not a fixed value. It is called a 'fictitious' value. It is 'fictitious' not because we make it as we go along, but 'fictitious' in the sense that a body's RCS changes with distance. It does not matter if the body is shaped for 'stealth' or not. Close enough and the F-117 will be as large as a 747. And that is the point -- WHERE will the F-117 be as large as the 747?

Simply put -- you do not know what you are talking about. And I say that kindly.

As for knowing what an Aircrafts Max G means I'm pretty sure I've known that since high school which was decades ago! LOL! However It's becoming more clear to me that you obviously had to look that up after I schooled you....
:lol:

I explained the 'g' in relation to airframe, avionics, flight control concepts, and the human body long before you got on this forum, pal. You 'schooled' me? But if that make you feel good about yourself, go right ahead. You have everything to prove while I -- none.
 
Last edited:

Draco.IMF

FULL MEMBER
Jan 17, 2015
1,276
0
3,143
Country
Germany
Location
Germany
Iran Army air defense downs intruding foreign drone ( UAV) over southern port city of Mahshahr
https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2019/11/08/610687/drone-Iran-Army-Mahshahr

launch of the system


look how the mersad missile starts, its not going high but starts very low

@yavar

I remember some years ago in the old forum u mentioned this, there are 2 kinds of missile in development for mersad, one mersad missile is starting very low and one missile is going normally high

The drone allegeldy flow very low, under 100m

"Update The UAV has been shot down before reaching sensitive petrochemical facilities. When targeted the drone was flying on altitude < 100 meters."
 

VEVAK

SENIOR MEMBER
Oct 24, 2013
2,391
1
3,514
.


What you said revealed your ignorance about radar detection in general, let alone of 'stealth'.

The concept of the radar cross section (RCS) have been known since the invention of radar itself. An RCS is not a fixed value. It is called a 'fictitious' value. It is 'fictitious' not because we make it as we go along, but 'fictitious' in the sense that a body's RCS changes with distance. It does not matter if the body is shaped for 'stealth' or not. Close enough and the F-117 will be as large as a 747. And that is the point -- WHERE will the F-117 be as large as the 747?

Simply put -- you do not know what you are talking about. And I say that kindly.


:lol:

I explained the 'g' in relation to airframe, avionics, flight control concepts, and the human body long before you got on this forum, pal. You 'schooled' me? But if that make you feel good about yourself, go right ahead. You have everything to prove while I -- none.
I never claimed RCS was a fixed value in fact you and me have had this discussion in the past and I quite clearly remember telling YOU that RCS is not fix value! LOL! Do you honestly not remember that?
It still doesn't change the fact that in the 80's & 90's most radars being operated across various countries in the world filtered out anything showing up smaller than a bird and that allowed low RCS aircraft aka Stealth to fly a preplanned rout (F-117 had to use a computer to practically fly that rout for them) flying at the right angel towards the radar that allowed them to remain undetected (filtered) to a point where they could get close enough to release their missiles or glide bomb PGM's from 20km out and get out without ever getting locked on.

HOWEVER those day's are LONG GONE! And I'm sticking to my original statement....


As for Iran's Air Force let me make this very CLEAR! Iran is a country that hasn't purchased a single BVR equipped Air Superiority fighter in well over 4 decades and has made no real attempt to upgrade it's outdated fleet.
Now do know why?
Because Iran more than any other country on the planet knows that going up against the U.S. Air Force in the Air is a futile exercise and even if Iran was to equip it's self with a fleet of over 300 Su-30's tomorrow that fact WOULD NOT CHANGE and it would simply give the U.S. more targets to take down. And that's is why most of Iran's budget for weapons acquisition goes towards it's Missile program because by Iran's calculation the ONLY way Iran could possibly stand up to U.S. supremacy in the skies is by going after those fighters while they are on the ground using missiles
 

mohsen

SENIOR MEMBER
Feb 26, 2012
5,657
-1
12,651
Country
Iran, Islamic Republic Of
Location
Iran, Islamic Republic Of
Damascus gave Iran advanced Israeli missile captured in Syria: Russian media


BEIRUT, LEBANON (9:10 A.M.) – The Syrian military did not give Russia the advanced Israeli surface-to-air missile that landed inside Syria in July 2018, the Russian aviation publication Avia.Pro reported on Thursday.

Instead, the Russian publication claims that Damascus transferred the Israeli missile to Iran, who, in turn, plans to reverse engineer the projectile.


“As it turned out, the missile did not go to Moscow, but to Iran, which means serious problems for Israel against the backdrop of an escalation of the situation with the Islamic Republic,” Avia.Pro reported.

“In fact, the missile did not go to Russia at all, but to Iran. <…> On this day, the Iranian cargo Il-76 was at Damascus International Airport, and could very well have delivered the Israeli missile defense system to Iran to study its capabilities,” they said, citing a military expert.

“Russia’s interest in foreign military technology is quite obvious, but for Iran, this missile allows reveals features of the Israeli missile defense system. If Tehran really took possession of such a missile, then the reliability of Israeli air defense systems is in question, even if the missile defense has been seriously damaged,” they added.

The news about Syria first capturing this Israeli missile and transferring it to the Russian military was first reported by the Chinese news service Sina.
 

zectech

SENIOR MEMBER
Aug 12, 2018
3,393
-3
4,064
Country
Italy
Location
Netherlands
Because Iran more than any other country on the planet knows that going up against the U.S. Air Force in the Air is a futile exercise and even if Iran was to equip it's self with a fleet of over 300 Su-30's tomorrow that fact WOULD NOT CHANGE and it would simply give the U.S. more targets to take down.
Putin's role is to sell overpriced Russian second rate junk to Iran. Iran has refused to buy target practice equipment from Russia. Iraq had second rate Russian/Soviet junk in 1990 and was defeated. Air defense is vital for survival. SU-30s do not provide enough air superiority against F-22s and F-35s. Better to have ADS.
 

VEVAK

SENIOR MEMBER
Oct 24, 2013
2,391
1
3,514
Putin's role is to sell overpriced Russian second rate junk to Iran. Iran has refused to buy target practice equipment from Russia. Iraq had second rate Russian/Soviet junk in 1990 and was defeated. Air defense is vital for survival. SU-30s do not provide enough air superiority against F-22s and F-35s. Better to have ADS.
Every country at the end of the day tries to do what is in their own self interest. The American's sell $100 Billion USD in junk to Arab states on a yearly bases so it's not surprising that others would wanna do the same and under normal conditions and in a relatively stable region a modernized Su-30 wouldn't necessarily be a bad platform to stock on however for Iran for as long as U.S. has this absurd obsession with Iran then the platform falls well short of being worth the cost.
 

skyshadow

SENIOR MEMBER
Sep 12, 2017
4,847
3
13,064
Country
Iran, Islamic Republic Of
Location
Iran, Islamic Republic Of
Any news on what type of UAV it was that we shot down?
now Iran giving a hint that it was Israeli drone took off from Bahrain


Former Iranian diplomat AmirMousawi7 to Mayadeen reports preliminary indications are that the drone (shot down by Iranian air defences earlier) was an Israeli drone that took off from Bahrain. This is still unconfirmed.

انهدام پهپاد متجاوز با سامانه‌‌ای که به هواپیمای «U2» اخطار داده بود


این پهپاد که برای شناسایی مراکز حساس وارد مناطقی از جنوب کشور شده و با استفاده از ترفندهای پنهان‌کاری ازجمله پرواز در ارتفاع پست در حال ادامه مسیر به سمت اهداف مورد نظر بود، توسط سامانه پدافندی مرصاد شناسایی، رهگیری شد و مورد اصابت قرار گرفت.

سامانه مرصاد پیش از این توانسته بود هواپیمای جاسوسی آمریکا موسوم به U2 را که از بالاترین سطح تکنولوژی بهره می برد، در ارتفاع 60 هزارپایی رهگیری کند و با اخطار آنرا از حریم هوایی کشور دور کند.






https://defapress.ir/fa/news/369304...ا-سامانه‌‌ای-که-به-هواپیمای-u2-اخطار-داده-بود
 

TheImmortal

SENIOR MEMBER
Mar 11, 2017
3,795
-10
6,271
Country
United States
Location
United States
Putin's role is to sell overpriced Russian second rate junk to Iran. Iran has refused to buy target practice equipment from Russia. Iraq had second rate Russian/Soviet junk in 1990 and was defeated. Air defense is vital for survival. SU-30s do not provide enough air superiority against F-22s and F-35s. Better to have ADS.
Calling a SU-30 “second rate junk” is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

SU-30 and it’s upgraded brother SU-35 form the backbone of the Russian air fleet.

Iran could be only so lucky to have SU-30 in its fleet instead of the F-5 junk it keeps rehashing every 5 years under a new damn name.
 

GWXP

FULL MEMBER
Feb 9, 2019
509
-1
1,030
Country
Russian Federation
Location
Tajikistan
Calling a SU-30 “second rate junk” is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

SU-30 and it’s upgraded brother SU-35 form the backbone of the Russian air fleet.

Iran could be only so lucky to have SU-30 in its fleet instead of the F-5 junk it keeps rehashing every 5 years under a new damn name.
A saying says: generals always prepare for the wars of the past.

As F-35s enter service around the world and Chinese and Russian 5th generation fighters enter service----4th generation fighters like Su-30 have no future.

So if Iran buys aircraft for its air force it will be either Su-57 or Chinese J-31, so these aircraft could serve in the air force until 2050.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 3, Members: 0, Guests: 3)


Top Bottom