• Wednesday, November 21, 2018

Iranian Air Defense Systems

Discussion in 'Iranian Defence Forum' started by twilight, May 19, 2013.

  1. mohsen

    mohsen SENIOR MEMBER

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    Be realistic, if another missile existed, they would have shown it by now, considering their budget, and how they played with Hawk systems during these years, when they say Kamin is a mobile upgrade to Mersad, then you can be rest assured that there is no new nothing, they have decided to use the same old hawk missiles as a short range ADS.

    What do you think of 105km range?
     
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  2. T-72B

    T-72B FULL MEMBER

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    So @mohsen how many the range of the original 3rd Khordad that and also do all the 3rd Khordad shown in the video is 105km range?
     
  3. PeeD

    PeeD FULL MEMBER

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    Its not about realistic or not, look at the video, the Kamin-2 and its TEL is visible and its new and 30% smaller than a Sayyad-2.

    As for the 105km 3rd Khordad: Yes, with improved battery it would be able to attack a approaching AWACS, E-2, B-52 or tanker at mid altitude from that range. But a crossing supersonic fighter, highly unlikely.
    Still a good to have capability upgrade.

    Here some relevant pieces I wrote in another about the Tabas ADS and ADS in general:

    I can say that the Tabas SAM system, with its mechanically steered radar, is probably one of the most cost effective ADS.
    It is like a super slow, small Mig-29 with 3 BVR missiles. Tabas systems would drive to any area where the enemy would try to push through the IADS barrier. Contested, near hostile ground, where the enemy is trying to gain air superiority.

    It just needs IADS information about something approaching, drive out of the warehouse or out from below the bridge, turn on its old school mechanically scanned radar, find the target, paint it with EM energy and it's SAM will go for the kill. It shoots and scoots in the matter of few minutes. A true BVR fighter on the ground probably for just 2-3 million $ a TELAR with 3 SAMs.

    The Tabas has its fixed role in the Iranian IADS mix.

    -It will operate at the closest frontline where IFF is no big issue

    -Its search capability is secondary (but there) as it will rely on IADS early warning data of identified targets that are worth to be attacked.

    -As single TELAR with just one communication car assigned to it, it will have smallest possible footprint

    -Once the IADS assigned target is locked, the mechanical Mig-29 style radar will put a high energy amount on the target for the SAM's SARH seeker. Job done, pulling the jacks up and back into hiding position.

    The attack cycle is too short, too simple to expect a HARM counter attack.


    As said a Mig-29 on the ground, just 10 times cheaper. Imagine how many system and what coverage such a low price and high systems numbers allow.

    An example what the Tabas means for the IADS. Imagine you are protecting a city under siege with your SOF squad (3rd Khordad). You know that down the street you have a tank in defensive position with some infantry and mortars (Bavar-373). Suddenly your squad comes under attack by small arms from a certain direction, a unfavorably one. You take your radio and ask whether someone can take out the attacker. The rear tank and mortar unit says yes, I can turn that spot into rubble. But then a hiding Basiji sniper also answers and says that he is closest to that position, sees the attacker and can take them out by his old bolt action 7.62mm sniper rifle (Tabas).

    Basijis bring numbers into the battle, same as the Tabas. You can't replace Basijis with SOF units or heavy armored/artillery units, not if you are fighting an much stronger enemy.


    Missile accuracy is sufficient: The directional frag warheads work best at some distance to the target such a 10m, having a 30-60m kill radius.


    The 3rd Khordad battery is a upper tier IADS asset to the Tabas: Bashir advanced PESA radar and 3-4 3rd Khordad TELARs with a slave TEL.


    The Bashir PESA just has lower LPI capabilities than a AESA, in terms of "speed" and range it is like a AESA (you can replace the Bashir with a Najam-802 if you think AESAs are needed here).

    This is a whole structured SAM system that can work without IADS support if needed. Some SHORAD and AAA is also welcome here because the Bashir radar of the system needs protection.


    Now the difference to the Tabas: This is a single independent autonomous system it works at a lower tier-level than the 3rd Khordad battery structure.

    The Tabas does not need a battery structure! It just need a Toyota communication vehicle, HF and UHF radio link is already sufficient.

    It can drive and hide somewhere 20-30km from the next IADS communication node.

    It can receive location of a identified target from:

    - IADS

    - 3rd Khordad battery

    - Search with its own radar if necessary (here it has a risk of detection due to its old school radar)


    The Tabas is the infantry soldier of Iranian SAMs. At $2-3m it is expandable (20 Tabas forthe price of a single Su-30). Due to its battery independent nature you can have many location along the frontline with single Tabas systems. This means very small footprint: No convoy of vehicles like a SAM battery.

    If you realize what a capability this means, you understand that it is not outdated at all. It is more one of the genius asymmetrical approaches of the IRGC.

    It shows that every technology, even older ones can have a valuable place.

    Just to show what this means: 30 years ago, at the end of the war, the IRGC bought SA-2 batteries for million dollars. If you would have told them that in 25 years a single vehicle would do the same job at almost twice the range for 2-3 million $, just with half the missile load as penalty...


    Its exactly systems like the Tabas that stop ideas like Su-30s to come true. Decision makers will take those 20 Tabas over one Su-30SM every day in Irans current threat situation.

    A SAM concentration node like the 3rd Khordad can engage 16 targets at once, has 24 ready to fire missiles and would still cost cost probably half as much as a Su-30 at $35-40m. A S-300PMU-2 battalion able to engage 6 targets with 32 ready to fire missiles costs $150-200m. That's a price for which you can get more than 4 full size 3rd Khordad battery which create 4 circles with 150km radius protecting about the same area as a S-300 but with 64 guidance channels and 96 ready to fire missiles, each several times cheaper than a S-300 SAM.

    So to conclude:

    For 150-200 million dollars you can get following systems:

    - 1 S-300 battalion, 6 simultaneous engagements, 36 ready to fire missiles, 400km protected circle area

    - 3 Su-30SM with variable location, 8-10 simultaneous engagements with 8-10 missiles, a variable 120km circle protected. Secondary role as bomber.

    - 4 3rd Khordad full size batteries, 64 simultaneous engagements, 96 ready to fire missiles protecting a circle area of about 300km

    - 60 single vehicle autonomous Tabas systems, with 60 simultaneous engagements, 180 ready to fire missiles, protecting 60 circle areas of 100km

    Protected square km ranking:

    1- Tabas = 471 000km²

    2- 3rd Khordad = 282 000km²

    3- S-300 = 125 000km²

    4- Su-30SM = 33 000km² (variable location)


    System redundancy ranking (how many single critical systems to kill to knock out whole system complex)

    1- Tabas = 60

    2- 3rd Khordad = 16

    3- Su-30SM = 3

    4- S-300 = 1


    The Tabas can only achieve this overall system performance by using the most cost effective technologies and avoid pitfalls like "AESA is a must". Thanks god there is no influential military industrial complex in Iran that dictates developments. IRGC ideas that allow Iran to protect itself against a enemy with 50-times high military budget.

    Fun fact: Tabas or 3rd Khordad does not need to kill the enemy aircraft --> they just need to endanger them sufficiently that they feel necessary to fly at lower levels.

    Once they are in that envelope, other systems such as SHORAD, MANPADs and AAA will become dangerous. Even if no kill can be achieved, low altitude means haff the range and half the speed… Figure out what adverse impact this has on airpower.
     
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  4. NADIM.NAZI

    NADIM.NAZI FULL MEMBER

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    What is the name of this weapons

    that weapons need Rader
     
  5. mohsen

    mohsen SENIOR MEMBER

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    About Kamin, all news web sites published the same picture, jamejam was more blant on calling it the picture of Kamin:
    امروز در مراسم روز ارتش
    سامانه موشکی کمین 2 رونمایی شد +عکس


    However this might be the correct picture, or early states:
    [​IMG]
    Missiles mounted on the truck.
    and the full description:
    مهر گزارش می‌دهد؛
    معرفی ۴ سامانه پدافندی متحرک/ سامانه‌هایی جهت دفاع موثر از آسمان


    and about 3rd khordad, I meant which missile they have used, an upgraded Sayyad 2 or Taer?
    Hajizadeh previously promised a new missile with 100km range for 3rd khordad.

    First gen had 50km range with Taer2B missile, second gen had 75km range with Sayyad2 missile and this one 105km range with unknown missile.
    No info about quantity.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
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  6. Imran Khan

    Imran Khan PDF VETERAN

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    its Oerlikon GDF its famous AD system paksitan having some 250 of them made by switzerland yes it have radar too
     
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  7. arashkamangir

    arashkamangir FULL MEMBER

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    I have a feeling, Sayyad 3 is the missile. I think we are going to see Sayyad series used across all air defence systems.
     
  8. Sineva

    Sineva FULL MEMBER

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    Its at the 5:00[5 minute] mark in yavars video,its basically 3 inline box launchers on what looks to be a rather high rotating/elevating mount.
    Sadly it doesnt look to be the pantsir equivalent we were expecting,hopefully that is yet to come.....the sooner the better.

    I decided to post some pics
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    And theres this rather interesting looking radar,possibly fire control from the looks of the other stuff attached to it,what sam system is it used with?
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
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  9. Draco.IMF

    Draco.IMF FULL MEMBER

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    Mersad system mounted on this truck is nothing new, we have seen it several times last years in parades, it must be something different

    Thanks for the pics
    Damn! Iran really is putting a lot of its resources into Air Defence, its definitely one of its priorities, great!
     
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  10. PeeD

    PeeD FULL MEMBER

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    @Sineva

    The Kamin-2 is in a completely different class than the Pantsir SHORAD.

    Plus look at the truck, it is the same as the Sayyad-2's which carries 4. Hence we can be sure that the Kamin-2 TEL carries more than those 3, namely 6.
     
  11. zectech

    zectech FULL MEMBER

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    That is the most important technological development. It protects everything else.

    It is what Saddam did not have enough of, it is what Qaddafi did not have enough of. When you are the insurgency, it is not as important, but as defender it is. Iran needs to develop a strategy on defending of swarms of drones, like Russia has for their bases in Syria. And with in 3 years hypersonic missiles will be in production in the States. Once enough hypersonic missiles are had by Amerika, Amerika under the wrong "president" will attack Iran. S-400s can defend against hypersonic objects, according to their missile specs.
     
  12. PeeD

    PeeD FULL MEMBER

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    I make a prediction: The Kamin-2 is similar to the RIM-162 ESSM in appearance.

    Another prediction: It is not really short ranged as described when compared to the Shahin/MIM-23.
     
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  13. WinterNights

    WinterNights FULL MEMBER

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    I remember a picture of a missile which looked like a miniaturized taer missile on a truck. The pic was a few years old now, I can't find it.
     
  14. Draco.IMF

    Draco.IMF FULL MEMBER

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    you are calculating the cost of an 3rd Khordad AD system at ~ 40-50mln$?
    Syria ordered 40-50 BUK-M2E for 1bln$, you calculate twice the price?
    I think its around 10mln$ max, as its domestically produced
     
  15. mohsen

    mohsen SENIOR MEMBER

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    based on the published info which was released before the parade and sequence matched.
    S300 30N radar
    S300 launchers and empty cans of fired missiles!
    S300 TM ?(missile transporter)
    Aftabaz passive radar (DDFS)
    Aftabaz passive radar (IPS)
    S200 TZM ?(TEL)
    S200 missile on tilted stand
    S200 2x tilted canisters
    Talash launcher
    Talash system
    Sayyad2,3 missiles
    Shalamcheh missile canisters x4 on titled stands
    Tactical Mersad launcher
    Kavosh radar of Tactical Mersad (missing?)
    Hadi radar of tactical Mersad (two trucks?)
    Seraj-1 radar
    Hael system
    Fakour mobile command and control system
    Gama radar
    Yavar radar (anti radar missiles deceiver)
    Moragheb radar

    This must be the new TEL of tactical Mersad.


    It's talash missile system, it's TEL was the front truck.

    and that's what they said during so called unveiling, that it's operational and has been used in the past drills.
    I guess we have no choice but to wait.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
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  1. arashkamangir