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Iran missile strike successful ,Israel failed to detect missile's warhead separation

arashkamangir

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You guys believe that?

GPS spoofing is not easy even in laboratory settings and extremely unlikely for a mobile target that also happens to be a military asset in the midst of a mission, specially with single attempt:

3). GPS spoofing has been considered for years and the concept has been proven. On the ground. In a controlled lab environment. Spoofing a stationary receiver to believe it was located at a different stationary position. And even this is incredibly complex. However, spoofing a moving target is orders of magnitude more difficult as it requires multiple successful “stationary spoofs” per second while not losing lock, confusing, or alerting the target receiver to anomalies. Spoofing a moving aircraft at 30, 40, or 50,000+ feet traveling at 300, 400, 0r 500+ MPH is several more orders of magnitude difficult. It is unlikely that ground-based antennas (even highly directional ones) could do the trick; the spoofing equipment would need to be airborne flying near the drone. GPS is all about very precise timing; minor timing variations result in miles of error. So the “chase plane” would need to hold a fixed differential position to within inches of a moving aircraft.

4). The military uses a very different GPS system than the one on your dashboard in your car. The military GPS signals are encrypted and authenticated. An attacker is theoretically not able to generate valid military GPS signals; all he could do is to capture and replay existing signals and adjust the transmission timing. Which is extremely difficult to get right given that the satellite relative positions are constantly changing even if the target is stationary; a moving target is even more complex.


Full reading here: https://www.jasadvisors.com/iran-hijacked-us-rq-170-sentinel-drone-with-gps-hack-not-likely/

Most likely scenario is that that drone malfunctioned during its mission in Iran. It is a machine after-all.
Hahah
 

Arminkh

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You guys believe that?

GPS spoofing is not easy even in laboratory settings and extremely unlikely for a mobile target that also happens to be a military asset in the midst of a mission, specially with single attempt:

3). GPS spoofing has been considered for years and the concept has been proven. On the ground. In a controlled lab environment. Spoofing a stationary receiver to believe it was located at a different stationary position. And even this is incredibly complex. However, spoofing a moving target is orders of magnitude more difficult as it requires multiple successful “stationary spoofs” per second while not losing lock, confusing, or alerting the target receiver to anomalies. Spoofing a moving aircraft at 30, 40, or 50,000+ feet traveling at 300, 400, 0r 500+ MPH is several more orders of magnitude difficult. It is unlikely that ground-based antennas (even highly directional ones) could do the trick; the spoofing equipment would need to be airborne flying near the drone. GPS is all about very precise timing; minor timing variations result in miles of error. So the “chase plane” would need to hold a fixed differential position to within inches of a moving aircraft.

4). The military uses a very different GPS system than the one on your dashboard in your car. The military GPS signals are encrypted and authenticated. An attacker is theoretically not able to generate valid military GPS signals; all he could do is to capture and replay existing signals and adjust the transmission timing. Which is extremely difficult to get right given that the satellite relative positions are constantly changing even if the target is stationary; a moving target is even more complex.


Full reading here: https://www.jasadvisors.com/iran-hijacked-us-rq-170-sentinel-drone-with-gps-hack-not-likely/

Most likely scenario is that that drone malfunctioned during its mission in Iran. It is a machine after-all.
Of course we believe that. Iran is already building GPS jammers for years.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...ell-phone-towers-cruise-missile-jammers-18067

Hacking the GPS and making it believe it is in another location is very hard and requires a lot of expertise but but just introducing noise into the same frequency that the missile GPS system works on is not hard. You just prevent the missile from receiving the GPS signals and then the GPS is useless.

Regarding RQ-170, later documentaries were published by Iran showing scenes from overall operation from tracing it in the sky using optics to hacking it to being present exactly where it was supposed to land. It was not a malfunction.
 

LeGenD

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Of course we believe that. Iran is already building GPS jammers for years.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...ell-phone-towers-cruise-missile-jammers-18067

Hacking the GPS and making it believe it is in another location is very hard and requires a lot of expertise but but just introducing noise into the same frequency that the missile GPS system works on is not hard. You just prevent the missile from receiving the GPS signals and then the GPS is useless.
You need to be more specific then that. As pointed out in the link I shared:

It is unlikely that ground-based antennas (even highly directional ones) could do the trick; the spoofing equipment would need to be airborne flying near the drone. GPS is all about very precise timing; minor timing variations result in miles of error. So the “chase plane” would need to hold a fixed differential position to within inches of a moving aircraft.

As for 'introducing noise into the same frequency' part in your argument, you are not telling anything new to me in this case: http://www.brighthub.com/electronics/gps/articles/60598.aspx

You need to explore the topics of "GPS anti-jamming technologies" instead.

I am sorry but Iranian account is full of loopholes.

Regarding RQ-170, later documentaries were published by Iran showing scenes from overall operation from tracing it in the sky using optics to hacking it to being present exactly where it was supposed to land. It was not a malfunction.
Link?

You can find very convincing conspiracy theories on the web about different developments - problem is that they are concealing facts and details that you come to know through other sources.
 
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Arminkh

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You need to be more specific then that. As pointed out in the link I shared:

It is unlikely that ground-based antennas (even highly directional ones) could do the trick; the spoofing equipment would need to be airborne flying near the drone. GPS is all about very precise timing; minor timing variations result in miles of error. So the “chase plane” would need to hold a fixed differential position to within inches of a moving aircraft.

As for 'introducing noise into the same frequency' part in your argument, you are not telling anything new to me in this case: http://www.brighthub.com/electronics/gps/articles/60598.aspx

You need to explore the topics of "GPS anti-jamming technologies" instead.
Not sure what you are trying to say here. Jamming the GPS signals dates back to 90s in US and Iraq war where Iraq was using Russian supplied equipment. It is a well known fact that it can be jammed.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/safeguarding-gps/

I am sorry but Iranian account is full of loopholes.

Don't be. It is your opinion not ours.


You can find it in this section. Sorry, don't have time to dig it up.
 

Iranm

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I believe US is still trying to get info about how Iranian got RQ-170 down.
Who knows maybe it was just malfunctioning or really Iranian could hijack the drone.
I'm sure we will never know exactly what happened.
 

LeGenD

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Not sure what you are trying to say here. Jamming the GPS signals dates back to 90s in US and Iraq war where Iraq was using Russian supplied equipment. It is a well known fact that it can be jammed.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/safeguarding-gps/
Thanks for sharing that link - very informative.

However, you can see that American forces easily defeated Iraqi GPS jamming capabilities in a major military operation. Therefore, GPS jamming is practical only in limited scenarios and/or GPS anti-jamming technologies have addressed this problem to large extent.

Don't be. It is your opinion not ours.



You can find it in this section. Sorry, don't have time to dig it up.
I will check that thread but I doubt it will be sufficient to address my skepticism. Problem is that Iranian incident seems to be a one-off or an outlier, not a norm. And I really doubt that RQ-170 drone was used to spy on Iran just once and it was brought down the same day.

I doubt any member in this community can claim to know much about capabilities and vulnerabilities of RQ-170 drone. It would surprise me if this drone does not have built-in fail-safes against GPS jamming technologies since a large number of American military assets have them. Americans tend to be aware of literally every kind of threat in existence and develop appropriate countermeasures.

Americans successfully utilized an RQ-170 drone for surveillance of Abbottabad inside Pakistan during night-time conditions (in connection with hunt of OBL) and we were not able to detect or track it any time - I wouldn't underestimate Pakistani defenses among Islamic states at minimum and Pakistan does not allow American drones to come this far. Therefore, this drone is not as vulnerable as Iranian account seems to suggest.

In-fact, American surveillance efforts are non-stop - they are spying on Iran, Pakistan, China and North Korea as we speak.
 
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Sage

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Americans successfully utilized an RQ-170 drone for surveillance of Abbottabad inside Pakistan during night-time conditions (in connection with hunt of OBL) and we were not able to detect or track it any time - I wouldn't underestimate Pakistani defenses among Islamic states at minimum and Pakistan does not allow American drones to come this far. Therefore, this drone is not as vulnerable as Iranian account seems to suggest.
There was a drone, no doubt, but it wasn't an RQ-170 ...Reaper can easily be detected and tracked ...
 

Arminkh

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Thanks for sharing that link - very informative.

However, you can see that American forces easily defeated GPS jamming capabilities of Iraq in a major military operation. Therefore, GPS jamming is practical only in limited scenarios and/or GPS anti-jamming technologies have addressed this problem to large extent.

Well my original comment regarding why Iran doesn't use terminal guidance on its missile was due to the fact that if ever used, the missiles will be used against much more technologically advanced enemies who can definitely do better jamming the GPS signals than Iraq of 90s.
 

SOHEIL

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Most likely scenario is that that drone malfunctioned during its mission in Iran. It is a machine after-all.

And landed in one piece !!!

With deployed landing gears? :D

Bro you don't think you missed something here?

What kind of malfunctioning is that!!!???

Yeah ... Drone tried to save his life so deployed the landing gears and landed in one piece with near to zero damages & we had no role in the process ... Such a great idea :unsure:
 

Arminkh

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If the terminal guidance can be jammed, then how can the missile CEP be close to zero?
In case it is not jammed. For example, US Tomahawks fired at Syria use GPS terminal guidance and for some reason neither Russia nor Syria did not try to jam the GPS signal and they hit their targets.

Same case is true for Ballistic missiles. In case of use against an unsophisticated enemy, a ballistic missile with terminal guidance can have a CEP close to zero.
 

TheImmortal

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Or it is possible Iran jammed the military satellite that was coordinating with the drone. Iran has experience jamming satellite signals into its country.

Thus operator lost control of drone , drone recognizes it lost contact with military sat/operator and enters autonomous mode waiting for sat link to be re-established. Unlike Hollywood movies, losing temporary connection with a drone actually does happen, so it is not unusual.

During this time, Iran hacks the drone and makes it think that operator has returned and/or military sat link is re established or it convinces drone to accept radio based commands instead of sat commands. Then it gives it orders to do emergency landing.

If I remember correctly, based on video released by Iran. It had been observing the drone prior to this operation.

So the theory that Iran had filmed video of RQ-170 in IR optics flying over its territory and then convinently the drone "malfunctions" and lands in Iran is a bit unlikely.

Also The location the drone fell in was very rural yet Iranian military personnel were on the site quickly hence why a cruise or air strike was not ordered to take out the drone by the US.

If this drone was not detected by Iran air defense command then it could have fallen and not been found for hours if not days.

Something happened, it might not be what was officially released. But both sides probably know the true details.
 

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