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Quwa

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Yes, but this is the precicse mistake that every one commits. Pakistan wont be acquiring 250-300 JF-17's before 2015 EITHER.
Bullshit. The PAF ACM said it himself that the PAF JF-17 orders will be complete and all the F-7s, Mirages and A-5s will be replaced by 2015.
It is also YET to get the new F-16's, willbe around 2010-12. And ls forget about the J-10's. PAF will have to modify the plane quite a bit.
The F-16C/D program is slated for completion by 2012.
In lieu 230 Su-30MKI's by 2012-13. 126 MRCA by 2015/16. AWACS, etc, etc is all there in IAF too.
Bullshit. Your own Chief said that the first MRCA will not be in service in IAF before 2015. I doubt your MKI claims.
 

Contrarian

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Bullshit. The PAF ACM said it himself that the PAF JF-17 orders will be complete and all the F-7s, Mirages and A-5s will be replaced by 2015.
Good, i would be obliged if you could give the article though i believe it and it is exactly what i said. That JF-17 wont be there in full numbers before 2015. BTW what is the production capcity per year of Kamra for JF-17?

The F-16C/D program is slated for completion by 2012.
Okay, no qualms there again. So roughly around 70-80 F-16's by 2012 then?

Bullshit. Your own Chief said that the first MRCA will not be in service in IAF before 2015.
No, i would appreciate you giving me the article. The MRCA contract would be roughly complete by 2015. On top of that Russia is promising speed as one of the main things in its contract as IAF wants the planes fast.

I doubt your MKI claims.
Nothing to doubt. Take it the way it is.
 

Quwa

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Good, i would be obliged if you could give the article though i believe it and it is exactly what i said. That JF-17 wont be there in full numbers before 2015. BTW what is the production capcity per year of Kamra for JF-17?
You should be obliged to do some research yourself.

Link:
The Air chief was sure the PAF would replace all its aging fleets of Mirages, F-7s (advanced versions of Mig-21) and A-5s (fighter-bombers) by 2015. He believed the PAF would acquire around 200 Thunders till that time, depending on the pocket of the country and the desire for the replacement.

He said the PAC would produce between 25 to 30 Thunders every year if required.
PAC will not be the only one producing the JF-17s, there are production lines in China as well.
Okay, no qualms there again. So roughly around 70-80 F-16's by 2012 then?
18 F-16C/D Block 52+ and 60 F-16A/B MLU3 - assuming options are not executed and no further orders placed. According to Janes there is still room for another 33 F-16C/D Block 52+ to be ordered by PAF.
No, i would appreciate you giving me the article. The MRCA contract would be roughly complete by 2015. On top of that Russia is promising speed as one of the main things in its contract as IAF wants the planes fast.
Actually, it was on a speech he said on television. A person from India I have contact with told me that the new IAF ACM said that the MRCA tender would go out soon. However he added that even if the process started today, the first batch of MRCA would not arrive for at least 7-8 years. Go search some Indian television news site and find the speech.
 

EagleEyes

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Induction of high-tech aircrafts for PAF soon: Pakistan
Tahir Syed | Apr 1, 2007, 13:53

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Air Force would soon induct high-medium-tech and high-tech fleet of fighter-bomber aircraft with the aim to modernize the country’s air force, said Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mamood Ahmed on Friday.

“We have plans to replace our ageing fleet with the fourth and fifth generation fighter-bomber aircraft till year 2015,” he said while briefing newsmen regarding future plans of PAF with special regard to the manufacturing of JF-17 Thunder aircraft with the help of China, at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra.

He said the number of aircraft in the fleet would also be enhanced from existing 320 to 400.

He said PAF was finalizing to purchase high-tech J-10 type aircraft from China and initially two squadrons of this fourth generation aircraft with the capability of being a four point five generation aircarft would be inducted in the PAF.

When the delivery of these J-10 aircrafts will be is yet to be clearified since the customization of the aircraft to meet the Pakistan Air Force needs might take sometime.

Terming the newly manufactured aircraft JF-17 Thunder as most lethal aircraft, to be included in the inventory of PAF, he said “presently we have plans to induct 150 Thunder aircraft in the fleet and later on their number would be enhanced up to 250.”

“10 to 12 squadrons of PAF would be equipped with the supersonic, lightweight and multi-role Thunder platforms,” he added.

JF-17 will have different configurations for different squadrons to meet the significant threat of Indian Air Force which is gearing to purchase more than 126 modern high-tech aircrafts superior to the JF-17, while inducting similar platforms in the batches.

He said the aircraft was capable of carrying all types of weapons and added “JF-17 Thunder is no less than a good aircraft available in the market.”

He said the plan for procurement of 18 brand new and 24 pre-used F-16 aircraft from the US was going according to its schedule. He said the renovation and upgradation of 32 other F-16 aircraft was also going as per the time frame.

He said plans were also in-hand to achieve the technology for air-to-air refueling of the aircraft and added we would attain the capability prior to the induction of JF-17 Thunder in the PAF by the next year. The possible air-to-air refueling platform may be IL-76 which is also used by the Indian Air Force will be acquired from Ukraine, while the refuelings kits will possibly installed in Britain as offered by two companies in the defence exhibition IDEAS 2007 in Pakistan.

He said during this year six more JF-17 aircraft would be received from China as in 2008 the serial production of the aircraft would commence. “In next three years Pakistan would be able to produce 50% avionics and frame of the aircraft,” he said.

The PAF Chief said, 15 aircraft would be manufactured in 2008 while 20 in the next year with the aim to achieve capability to manufacture 25 to 30 aircraft per year.

Answering a question, he said the provision of engine for the aircraft was being managed by China and expressed the hope that there would hardly be any influence of any third country to affect the project.

He said the engine of the aircraft was an improved version of MIG-29 aircraft of Russia and the manufacturer (Russia) has already signed an agreement with China for their uninterrupted supply for JF-17 Thunder.

He dispelled the impression that Pakistan was in any arms race and said “our arms and equipment are for peace and to maintain the peace. We have no offensive design.”

In reply to a question, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed said JF-17 aircraft was manufactured at almost half the price of any other aircraft of fourth or fifth generation platform available in the market.

He said this aircraft JF-17 was an outcome of the knowledge and expertise gained by Pakistani and Chinese experts by using variety of technologies during the past five decades.

He expressed the hope that in the days to come, the aircraft would capture market, due to its high performance at comparatively low cost.

JF-17 is a highly advance modern tech aircraft to meet the requirements of different countries at a very low price.

https://defence.pk/news/publish/article84.php
 
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Contrarian

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You should be obliged to do some research yourself.

Link:

PAC will not be the only one producing the JF-17s, there are production lines in China as well.
Cool, still PAF would not get more than 200 planes before 2015.

18 F-16C/D Block 52+ and 60 F-16A/B MLU3 - assuming options are not executed and no further orders placed. According to Janes there is still room for another 33 F-16C/D Block 52+ to be ordered by PAF.
So now the number stands at 78 F-16's.

Actually, it was on a speech he said on television. A person from India I have contact with told me that the new IAF ACM said that the MRCA tender would go out soon. However he added that even if the process started today, the first batch of MRCA would not arrive for at least 7-8 years. Go search some Indian television news site and find the speech.
No, by 2015-17, almost all the planes would be in.

So that puts, for PAF
250 JF-17's(At the VERY maximum)
80 F-16's

For IAF
230 Su-30MKI
60 Mirage 2005(10 additional, IAF has added 10 airframes)
70 MiG 29 SMT2
126 MRCA(MiG 35)
120 Jaguars
Oh and i havent counted how many LCA's will be inducted, 20 are already ordered. And at AI '07, ADA in-charge said roughly 100-150.

Please add more if i have left a/c for PAF.
 

PakSniper

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PAF - Also, know the modernization for PAF is to be completed by 2015

250 JF-17's (At the VERY maximum)
80 F-16's
40 J-10's (Once we get our western package for them)

Total: 370 top line fighters (also not PAF chief said number will soon jump above 400+), that PAF might soon look for another alternative besides the J-10 and F-16 in the future, but that is to be seen.

IAF

230 Su-30MKI (Still to reach that number)
60 Mirage 2005(10 additional, IAF has added 10 airframes)
70 MiG 29 SMT2
126 MRCA(MiG 35) (Still to decide)
120 Jaguars

Please add more if i have left a/c for PAF.

Note: that SU-30MKI isn't 230 yet, and MRCA is still yet to be chosen, and it will take longer than 2015 to get those inducted cause a recent news on IAF chief said once the deal is signed it will take about 7-8 years to induct.
 

Contrarian

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Note: that SU-30MKI isn't 230 yet, and MRCA is still yet to be chosen, and it will take longer than 2015 to get those inducted cause a recent news on IAF chief said once the deal is signed it will take about 7-8 years to induct.
Neither is JF-17 nor is the J-10 nor is the F-16, yet i have counted them because PAF plans to induct them.

Yes, and it is only 2007, 126 is a small number, the whole lot will be delivered by 2015-17. Su-30MKI will be 230 by 2012-13.
 

Owais

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Yes, and it is only 2007, 126 is a small number, the whole lot will be delivered by 2015-17. Su-30MKI will be 230 by 2012-13.
The production of 140 planes is behind the schedule due to low speed of production at HAL and now you are commenting that 230 MKI (that super duper number) will be ready till 2012??
please provide me a valid link of your claim.
 

Contrarian

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Uh...this was ALL OVER the news. Its not as though much of a low speed of production but that govt wanted these planes faster than the initial timeline. So many things got moved to Russia.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports/2440
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-30MKI

Actually, the original thing is that 190 will be there by 2012-14(when being very rough with dates), not so much about the additional 40 MKI's. So probably that will be done by 2015 as well. But 190 are surely gonna be there around 2012.
 

Owais

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Uh...this was ALL OVER the news. Its not as though much of a low speed of production but that govt wanted these planes faster than the initial timeline. So many things got moved to Russia.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports/2440
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-30MKI

Actually, the original thing is that 190 will be there by 2012-14(when being very rough with dates), not so much about the additional 40 MKI's. So probably that will be done by 2015 as well. But 190 are surely gonna be there around 2012.
The wikipedia is not a creaditable source and secondly, the another source you have provided didn't say that 230 or even 190 MKI will be ready till 2012. its talking about only 140 fighters whose order will be completed till 2014 and COULD BE completed by 2012.
 

Contrarian

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Because 140 will be made in India, rest 50 will come from Russia.

IAF to add muscle with 40 more Sukhois


BANGALORE: Not too worried about the US decision to sell 36 more F-16s to Pakistan, IAF plans to retain its combat edge by fast-track acquisition of 40 more Sukhoi-30MKIs from Russia as well as faster indigenous production of 140 of these fighters.

The delivery of the first of the three contracted Israeli Phalcon AWACS (airborne warning and control systems) by November this year will, of course, also impart a great punch to IAF's combat capability.

With the $6.5-billion deal to acquire 126 multi-role combat aircraft still some years away, IAF is also going in for progressive upgrades of its Jaguar, MiG-29 and Mirage-2000 fleets to enhance their combat capabilities as well as operational life.

IAF is also on course to acquire 80 more Mi-17 helicopters, 12 VIP helicopters, 10 Cheetah helicopters, six C-130J Super Hercules aircraft and six more mid-air refuelling aircraft, among several other projects.

"Sometimes, we bother too much about what our neighbour (Pakistan) is doing," said IAF chief Air Chief Marshal S P Tyagi on Thursday during the ongoing Aero-India show here.

To tackle the depletion in the number of its fighter squadrons, he said his force expected to begin inducting the 40 new Sukhoi-MKIs from Russia within three years of signing the deal.

"The deal will be signed within this financial year. They will come for a little less than $40 million apiece," said ACM Tyagi. IAF already operates around 50 multi-role Sukhoi-30MKIs, which are based in Pune, Bareilly and Halwara.

Moreover, another 140 of these fighters, which have a cruising speed range of 3,200 km coupled with advanced beyond-visual range combat capabilities, will progressively be built at HAL facilities at Nashik by 2013-2014 at a total cost of $4,809 million. The project completion date was 2017-2018 earlier but it has now been compressed on directions of the Cabinet Committee on Security.

"Yes, there is a requirement of numbers (of fighters) but finally IAF needs capabilities," said ACM Tyagi. IAF is also keeping open the option to buy some second-hand fighters from the international market if it gets the right deal.

"We, for instance, were negotiating with Qatar to buy 12 second-hand Mirage-2000s but it did not work out (due to the very high prices quoted by Qatar)," said the IAF chief.

India and Russia have already agreed to jointly produce the fifth-generation stealth fighter, a project being led by the Sukhoi Design Bureau. "The IAF is very much on board in this project. We have decided what we require in the fifth-generation fighter," said ACM Tyagi.

But in the short-term, IAF is banking upon the Sukhoi-30MKIs to jack up its fighter strength, which has touched a low of around 30 squadrons from a high of 40 some years ago due to phasing out of older MiG variants. The number will touch 28 over the next two-three years before it starts to rise once again.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/..._with_40_more_Sukhois/articleshow/1581347.cms
 

Contrarian

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IAF-606 Not including LCA
PAF-370 including everything that PAF can possibly acquire.

I fail to see how PAF can defend against such numerical superiority. Especially when almost every single plane in IAF is technologically superior to its counterpart. The exception maybe counted as F-16's, but that too not sure.

So if PAF does not have superior technology, or superior numbers, i dont get what they think will help them.
 

PakSniper

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IAF always had number on us, also know that some of IAFs planes back in the days were also superior, if you go back and study each plane carefully.

(Even then Russia AAM weren't reliable and India itself trashed them after the '71 war, do some googleing and dig the info out).

PAF in the future will gain it's technological edge soon, with JF-17 (projected that after all are inducted in 5 years another upgrade will happen, according to ACM in KDR), F-16, J-10 (PAF specs), back with AWACS and net centric, and Medium - Long range SAMs which we are in negotiation with (2 countries). I can see PAF handling India, in the future once the modernization has been completed with this PAF will have all platforms with BVR capability.

Also, know IDAF (Israel Air Force), which was smaller than 3 nations put together, were able to take out 3 AFs not only on the ground but also in the air, what I'm trying to get here is that soon PAF-IAF will have to rely of skills (once AWACS are inducted it's use less for SU-30MKI "Mini-AWACS", cause it can be detected and counter forces sent to take care of it by using J-10 (PAF version) and F-16s, I can go deep but I will leave it at that, as skills will determine who will win in the future.

Oh, and the number is projected to rise above 400+ planes as well, as you noticed PAF isn't just going for numbers, but going around for tech, espically from the west (Europe).
 

Keysersoze

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IAF-606 Not including LCA
PAF-370 including everything that PAF can possibly acquire.

I fail to see how PAF can defend against such numerical superiority. Especially when almost every single plane in IAF is technologically superior to its counterpart. The exception maybe counted as F-16's, but that too not sure.

So if PAF does not have superior technology, or superior numbers, i dont get what they think will help them.
No No NO! we have had this discussion ad nuaseam in a previous thread! I am sorry but as I have said IAF does not have tech superiority except in possibly a internet pundits mind. R-77 or AIM120? AIM120 please! Russian N011-M Bars or APG-68v9? APG please! (good enough for the SUFA good enough for the PAF) etc etc........

It amazes me that you guys think that PAK will buy inferior platforms.......WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT????????????
 

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