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Inside the OBL Raid

AgNoStiC MuSliM

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I re-read the whole report. Nowhere does it even mention nor hint about Pakistan's intelligence "support" in tracking OBL. Or did I miss that part somewhere? From the beginning it seemed to be a solely US op. Also this:
Obama called his national-security advisers into the White House Situation Room and reviewed a spreadsheet listing possible courses of action against the Abbottabad compound. Most were variations of either a JSOC raid or an airstrike. Some versions included coöperating with the Pakistani military; some did not. Obama decided against informing or working with Pakistan. “There was a real lack of confidence that the Pakistanis could keep this secret for more than a nanosecond,” a senior adviser to the President told me.

So pray, what support are you talking about?
My bad, I was reading two similar articles back to back and mixed up the details.

The one referring to ISI cooperation in tracking down OBL is the following one, with the relevant excerpt below:

There has never been a dispute on targeting al Qaeda. The ISI had translated a communication of (Abu Ahmed) al Kuwaiti (Bin Laden’s courier) from Arabic for the CIA which ultimately led to the compound of the al Qaeda chief,” a source said. “The ISI had somehow failed to follow that communication,” the source added.
The source slammed a statement from the CIA chief after the May 2 operation as ‘rubbing salt into their wounds’. Leon Panetta, who is now President Barack Obama’s top defence adviser, had said that Pakistan was either complacent or incompetent in the Bin Laden issue.​
Pakistan-US relations: Fearing fallout, US

The above account has remained consistent since the days after the raid, with even earlier Western media reports quoting US officials acknowledging Pakistan provided critical intelligence that the US developed further to track down OBL.
 

AgNoStiC MuSliM

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Well, that is YOUR opinion, others may differ.
I think the emotive response to this issue really illustrates why focusing on trivial things such as these is a huge distraction. Not only do Pakistanis end up arguing over trivial changes, they end up creating tension and distrust between each other.

There is a lot more that can be fixed and would have a much bigger impact than all this scapegoating of the military, outside of its intervention in domestic politics that is.
 

Xeric

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An extract from a post of mine elsewhere:

The discussion of motto might have been ok and this argument would hold water if the 'motto' or the so called 'Islamision' of the Army would have produced uniformed suicide bombers, all out support for the fake 'Jiahdis' and out right conversions of moderate faujis to fundamentalists, but guess what, none of it is happening.

Only a few (like 4, may be 6 Officers/Men) so far have been reported who defected because they wanted to support the Jihadis? Also, if someone resigns and join whatever KKK, IRA or AQ, how does it becomes Army's problem? We should worry when we would have more of those Brigadiers that was caught recently. Most importantly, the 'support' (if any) for the likes of Haqqanis and others is not because of the 'Islamic Bond' that the likes of you so vigorously perceive exists between the "Eman, Taqwa, Jihad Fee Sabillilah" Army and the terrorists, BUT, because of other priorities.

The motto or the Qurani Ayaats displayed all over military installations has nothing to do with the so called betterment of the Army or as some here are trying to portray that if these are let out, the military may go more professional.

My question; Have these mongers ever visited a Pakistani house? Any house i mean, a house in slums or the posh areas, do we see 'MashAllah' or 'SubhanAllah' itched on the front of almost every Pakistani house?Further more, let's go inside the houses, dont we see Aytal Kursis, Quranic Verses etc all over the walls of a Pakistani Drawing Room? The Verses inscribed on wall carpets, those written with glass paint, and those embossed on animal leathers?!

Now, these houses dont included homes of absconders, psedo liberals and Army mongers, it also does not include the houses of a very few ellites, but 9 out of every 10 houses shows the same picture.

So, as i have always said, the Army (or the military) of any country can only be as guud as the country and its nationals itself. Dont expect Jibraeels and Mikaelas to land from heavens or even better, Chuk Norrises, Rambos or may be Optimus Prime (i like the dude) to come improve the Pakistani Military. You get what you pay for, it's simple as that, improve yourselves and may be the military would improve automatically!

BTW, have anyone here visited the PM and the President's Sectt? Try to see how many Quranic Verses hand on their walls.

Even better, why does every assembly in Pakistani Schools (including elitist of the elites) began theior proceedings with Tilawat? Why does every session of the National Assembly starts with a Tilwat? Why does the PM or the Pres addressed the Nation after a Tilawat? Why even there's an 'Islamic' before the name of this country? And why the fcuk these mongers are even Pakistanis if they dont like to be one? Come one damn it, follow the example of a friend of yours and "flee"!!

And lastly, i pose this question: Let's for a second assume that these 'strat assets' (the the military supposedly supports by the supposedly Islamist grooming of the military officer and above all the magical and mystical effects of the Motto it has) happened to be non-Muslims, then what? Would the military had withdrawn their support or linkage with them? Or would the military had befriended the infidels in China or supported the Kashmir cause? Let's see, if they can answer this.


MOD EDIT: Unnecessary sir.

N.B. Agno, how many times would we be bumping into the same (trivial) thing on almost every thread??!!
 

AgNoStiC MuSliM

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if you do a simple search you would come across it even on these forums, the official statements pouring out from Pak in the initial days that it was joint exercise. read the threads from that day here...
Again, I am completely unaware of any official statements from Pakistan regarding knowledge of or support of the Abbottabad raid. If you can provide me some links I would appreciate it.
how is disputed territory equate to a-okay to send terrorist over - fight a war if you want but to send terrorists who don't follow the principles of war is okay? do they follow the Geneva convention, do they wear unforms?
They are not terrorists - they are insurgents playing a role in a covert means to force the other side to return to the negotiating table.
 

VCheng

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I think the emotive response to this issue really illustrates why focusing on trivial things such as these is a huge distraction. Not only do Pakistanis end up arguing over trivial changes, they end up creating tension and distrust between each other.

There is a lot more that can be fixed and would have a much bigger impact than all this scapegoating of the military, outside of its intervention in domestic politics that is.
I hear you loud and clear AM. I will pass on this relative small issue to concentrate on more important ones, as you rightly suggest.
 

Donatello

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So an intelligence failure in terms of 'connecting the dots' on the part of the Pakistani Military and intelligence?

At least we now know what the US is capable of doing and plan accordingly - this time the target (OBL) was essentially irrelevant to Pakistan. The raid itself and the capabilities of the US now should allow certain 'possibilities' to be considered as viable, when analyzing future intelligence and 'connecting the dots'.

After the Abbottabad raid, there is no reason to not treat US actions as those of a 'hostile state', at least in terms of plans to 'defend Pakistan'.

Hi,

Not intelligence failure......because ISI certainly knew about it and so did those Radar operators in PAF who saw the movement of E3s and F-18s from Arabian sea to Afghanistan. They must have told their Base commanders, Air Chief etc. The problem is the way USA sneaked in Black hawks in the dead of the night. Give props where it is due and i must hand it to the Black Hawk commanders. However, the fact that the entire 90 minute journey plus the 40 minute time SEALs were on ground without anyone responding, raises questions. That is a total of more than 2 hours. I mean, living in a Posh locality in Karachi, i have called the number 15 for Police once and they reached my place within 5 minutes! This was Abbottabad and no one even dare F***ing wake up and see why there are crackers going up all over the place? This is what saddens me.
 

gambit

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Hi,

Not intelligence failure......because ISI certainly knew about it and so did those Radar operators in PAF who saw the movement of E3s and F-18s from Arabian sea to Afghanistan. They must have told their Base commanders, Air Chief etc. The problem is the way USA sneaked in Black hawks in the dead of the night. Give props where it is due and i must hand it to the Black Hawk commanders. However, the fact that the entire 90 minute journey plus the 40 minute time SEALs were on ground without anyone responding, raises questions. That is a total of more than 2 hours. I mean, living in a Posh locality in Karachi, i have called the number 15 for Police once and they reached my place within 5 minutes! This was Abbottabad and no one even dare F***ing wake up and see why there are crackers going up all over the place? This is what saddens me.
I have been through many USAF 'war games' in my active duty days and suggest you might want to consider the fact that questions were raised. More like too many questions. This is an institutional, not technical, issue. At every level there is always someone who, good or bad, is too incredulous of the news. He then demand confirmations and put his command on action hold until he is satisfied with that confirmation. My USAF friends who were in Military Airlift Command (MAC) back then who participated in several Reforger recalled how the 'ground pounders' of all nations were often plagued with this problem. It is good that the military demand instant obedience. On the other hand, we do not want robots in our militaries. But that independence comes at a price in that it can delay progress of anything that require rapid decision making. Institutions inside and outside of the military know this issue/problem quite well.

I will not presume to know exactly what happened inside the Pakistani military structures but am willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that such institutional inertia contributed to the delays on that night.
 

Donatello

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I have been through many USAF 'war games' in my active duty days and suggest you might want to consider the fact that questions were raised. More like too many questions. This is an institutional, not technical, issue. At every level there is always someone who, good or bad, is too incredulous of the news. He then demand confirmations and put his command on action hold until he is satisfied with that confirmation. My USAF friends who were in Military Airlift Command (MAC) back then who participated in several Reforger recalled how the 'ground pounders' of all nations were often plagued with this problem. It is good that the military demand instant obedience. On the other hand, we do not want robots in our militaries. But that independence comes at a price in that it can delay progress of anything that require rapid decision making. Institutions inside and outside of the military know this issue/problem quite well.

I will not presume to know exactly what happened inside the Pakistani military structures but am willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that such institutional inertia contributed to the delays on that night.

Hi Gambit,

you have highlighted a very valid point. Rank structures create such difficulties. I remember reading about the Pre 2000s Korean Airlines air flight safety records and how their pilots ended up crashing all sorts of plane, earning Korean Air the worst track record ever. Later, a psychologist found out that rank and authority mean too much in Korean culture and all Asian cultures. Not so much in USA. The fact that Korean Co-pilots never spoke up to the captain when they knew he was wrong or when Captain didn't speak up to the rugged New Yorker Air traffic controllers and instead ended up crashing planes means that it is a huge issue. Today, Korean crew are trained to speak up to the wrong even if that wrong person is the highest authority. They have had excellent flight safety recond since then.

That was a bit off topic but a good example. However, like i mentioned, local police responds in 5 minutes and military couldn't in 40? that too in their heartland? that is just absurd and shocking.
 

JayAtl

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Again, I am completely unaware of any official statements from Pakistan regarding knowledge of or support of the Abbottabad raid. If you can provide me some links I would appreciate it.
got to this post and start from post 92 onwards http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/106609-osama-dead-obama-confirms-7.html


They are not terrorists - they are insurgents playing a role in a covert means to force the other side to return to the negotiating table.
insurgents are terrorists, official military are never called insurgents and sending " insurgents" because you don't get your way is called an act of terrorism" in the civilized world
 

gambit

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Hi Gambit,

you have highlighted a very valid point. Rank structures create such difficulties. I remember reading about the Pre 2000s Korean Airlines air flight safety records and how their pilots ended up crashing all sorts of plane, earning Korean Air the worst track record ever. Later, a psychologist found out that rank and authority mean too much in Korean culture and all Asian cultures. Not so much in USA. The fact that Korean Co-pilots never spoke up to the captain when they knew he was wrong or when Captain didn't speak up to the rugged New Yorker Air traffic controllers and instead ended up crashing planes means that it is a huge issue. Today, Korean crew are trained to speak up to the wrong even if that wrong person is the highest authority. They have had excellent flight safety recond since then.

That was a bit off topic but a good example. However, like i mentioned, local police responds in 5 minutes and military couldn't in 40? that too in their heartland? that is just absurd and shocking.
Am not 'shocked' in the least. Local authorities will always be the quickest responders. The problem here is that the institutional delays I mentioned works both ways. The local authority will report a military force of unknown origins is conducting some operations within his sight. At the higher level, someone, for good or bad, is too incredulous of that news, after all, no one above his pay grade told him of any military exercises, so is it possible that this could have been one of those 'surprise' job intended to weed out some incompetents? Confirmations must be available. At higher still, someone demands more confirmations from other people who may have overlapping authority to do 'something'...And so on...and on.

The trespass of a country's territorial sovereignty is not something that occurs daily and when it does, it is usually accidental and can be resolved at the lowest diplomatic levels. But if we are talking about armed men in various aircrafts, that is a different story and it will demand everyone to confirm his suspicion to his satisfaction. The confusion works up and down the chain of commands and this institutional problem have been exploited in past military operations, so good that it is quite popular for movie plot devices as well.
 

Xeric

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insurgents are terrorists, official military are never called insurgents and sending " insurgents" because you don't get your way is called an act of terrorism" in the civilized world
There's quite a difference between miscreants, insurgents and terrorists. As there's a difference between military operations, law enforcement operations, peace keeping operations and war. The earlier you understand the difference, the better it is.
 

AgNoStiC MuSliM

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I went through about 40 posts starting from the one you mentioned, and no mention of any 'official statement claiming ISI involvement'.
insurgents are terrorists, official military are never called insurgents and sending " insurgents" because you don't get your way is called an act of terrorism" in the civilized world
'Insurgents are terrorists', I can agree to that, when India accepts that she supported 'terrorists' (not insurgents or freedom fighters) in Jungadh (1947) and East Pakistan (1971).
 

JayAtl

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I went through about 40 posts starting from the one you mentioned, and no mention of any 'official statement claiming ISI involvement'.


'Insurgents are terrorists', I can agree to that, when India accepts that she supported 'terrorists' (not insurgents or freedom fighters) in Jungadh (1947) and East Pakistan (1971).
ISLAMABAD: A Pakistani security official on Monday told AFP that he could confirm Osama bin Laden had been killed in a "highly sensitive intelligence operation", but provided no immediate further details.

"Yes I can confirm that he was killed in a highly sensitive intelligence operation," the official told AFP on condition of anonymity.

The official said he was unable to immediately confirm where, how or when bin Laden was killed.

Asked whether Pakistani intelligence participated in the operation he said only: "It was a highly sensitive intelligence operation
Security official confirms bin Laden killed - GEO.tv
Lieutenant General Asad Durrani, former head of the ISI, Pakistan’s intelligence service, said it was “inconceivable” that his government was unaware of the US raid on Osama bin Laden’s compound
I can't say I know much about 1947 issue you have raised being that the entire country and its citizenry was up in arms and not funded, supported and directed by the govt as in the case of your " insurgents". 1971 was the Indian army fighting you guys, and so it can't be claimed as being terrorists...else the Islamic countries support of Palestinians would be called aiding terrorists.
 

JayAtl

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There's quite a difference between miscreants, insurgents and terrorists. As there's a difference between military operations, law enforcement operations, peace keeping operations and war. The earlier you understand the difference, the better it is.
well why not educate me what is insurgent and what is a terrorist?
 

fd24

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Americans are known liars. How many versions have we now heard about the obl raid. Im starting to think it prob never happend and the guy was dead before etc.
 

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