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Ravager

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IIRC there wasn't any malicious wrong doing on PT PAL's or DSME's part, rather the Indonesian Navy wanted them to cut costs and corners and they got what they asked for in the end; A sub that had problems BECAUSE they asked the shipbuilders to cut costs and corners.

What's happening right now is just political face saving. The South Koreans knows how to build submarines, we just weren't ready to bear the capital investment for actual credible defense deterrence.
I couldn't argue on that summary . While the rest is up to a different interpretation and and opinions . And i don't even want to bother on digging that rabbit hole anymore than allready is .
It's all about mentality .... We are simply aren't there yet .


Sigh
 

dr.knowhow

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You are not wrong there bro !! If there is something wrong with i've been writing . Then i apoligized to you . Like it or not we had a lot of ToT from them and we have to give the credits when it's due . And i also agree it's on case by case basis . But it's just they give me a bad vibe with all those promises thrown around like there is no tomorrow .
Forgive me for my blunt and harsh response before . It's just i'm a realistic guy and i don't want my hopes and expectation get uplifted so high while there isn't any clear press release or binding written contract were signed as yet . 'Cause rumours could only go so far right ..
No no, nothing to apologize. We are having civil discussions so having different opinions ain't a problem. In this case, I wasn't against anything but rather was just curious of the insights you might be able to provide because my knowledge regarding Indonesia's defense related matters surely cannot be better than your's.


IIRC there wasn't any malicious wrong doing on PT PAL's or DSME's part, rather the Indonesian Navy wanted them to cut costs and corners and they got what they asked for in the end; A sub that had problems BECAUSE they asked the shipbuilders to cut costs and corners.

What's happening right now is just political face saving. The South Koreans knows how to build submarines, we just weren't ready to bear the capital investment for them.



Been saying it for awhile, the SHornets are STUPIDLY capable for how much they are being asked for. Engine non-commonality and lesser armament range is made up by a lower (predicted) lower operating cost, lower procurement costs, buddy tanker, and the potential for a dedicated EW variant. Not to mention with the RAAF and the USN operating SHornets along with the RMAF's legacy Hornets, it allows better interoperability with other forces in the region.

Looking like a fanboy aside, there is no point for the Air Force or Navy to continue to operate "mixed" fleets of equipment. If the Army wants to continue to buy every MRAP design under the sun then that is their problem. But with everything that is going on in the region, along with their limited budget when compared to the Army; the Air Force and the Navy simply cannot afford to non-standardize its assets, be it financially or tactically.
Thank you for your insight. Yeah, building a submarine is a different game to conventional ship building. We were lucky that we had top-notch ship builders and especially one of the world's best welders. We were also very lucky to get really good terms with the Germans regarding the ToT. I still think Indonesia is taking the right step. You guys are now building your own LPDs and exporting them even. Give time and you will be able to develop the human resources of good welders.

Also I agree with your point about Super Bugs. Often underestimated because of the rather low T/W ratio but the pilots themselves seem to be very satisfied. Also on top of that it's a very trendy jet in terms of it's maneuverability and WVR doctrines, especially considering it is one of the first jets to actually implement post-stall maneuvers like the pirouette into it's warfighting capability. Also top-notch avionics on top of that and although relatively underpowered compared to its weight, F414 is still a decent engine. USN sticking with the F414 not opting for EPE speaks of something. Last but not least, being a carrier-based fighter with that rigid airframe really is a huge plus in terms of operability and longevity.
 

umigami

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Sadly There is no official news mentioning about SHornet up until now, so we can put that option in the box.
 

Chestnut

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I couldn't argue on that summary . While the rest is up to a different interpretation and and opinions . And i don't even want to bother on digging that rabbit hole anymore than allready is .
It's all about mentality .... We are simply aren't there yet .


Sigh
Keep in mind this was handled under Ryamizard, so you can sum it up yourself pretty much.
Last but not least, being a carrier-based fighter with that rigid airframe really is a huge plus in terms of operability and longevity.
With this last part, you can argue that there might a be (predicted) lower operating cost since a notional TNI-AU SHornet would largely be land based and isn't subjected to constant salinized air that are typical of the USN's SHornet fleet. If anything I would like to see an older CPFH estimate of the RAAF's SHornet fleet to (roughly) compare them to the CPFH of the USN's SHornet fleet and see if the theory rings true.
 

dr.knowhow

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Turkey did not want to help to improve Som J, Sage and ROKETSAN TUBITAK project had already been started. Seeing that Raytheon and Konsberg agreed, Lockheed partnered with Roketsan to speed things up. Except for the F35, there is no industry loss between us and the US, including Som j. I don't know what country you're making up these words from, but when there is no evidence, you should stop the nonsense.

No, you've understood me wrong. Well, I would say it's my bad expressing it that way. I didn't mean 'SOM was a failure' but rather that it was a 'commercial failure for LM'. The word "failure" was meant in that sense They opted to compete with JSM but now the opportunity is gone because Turkey is out of the program. Nothing wrong with Aseslan or Turkey's side of things in developing SOM.

Anyways let's not talk about it further since this is Indonesian defence forum.
 

umigami

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Gaduh Politik Austria Gegara Prabowo Mau Borong Eurofighter

"Menjual Eurofighter Typhoon ke Indonesia bukanlah solusi untuk tuduhan korupsi seputar pembelian tersebut," ujarnya seperti dilansir salah satu media terkemuka di Austria, Der Standard, Minggu (18/10/2020).

"Selain itu, perlu dicermati apakah Indonesia merupakan mitra negosiasi yang cocok karena situasi hak asasi manusia setempat," kata Hoyos.
‐-------
Ooppssss.....
 

Fl0gger

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Yeah! Im with you on this. Middle ground as of below heavy but abit above medium type with lots of carrying capacity. Tho the flight ceiling is relatively low and the engine power is somewhat mediocare in its class but hey even the used one doesnt need to be upgraded! :enjoy:

konsultan Jerman yg mana nih? Waktu Leo itu sempet kisruh dan terindikasi markup yg tidak membumi kalo ga salah. Setelah di konfirmasi ke negaranya langsung ternyata harganya jauh lebih murah so "konsultannya" langsung masuk kotak. Kalo "konsultan" ini yg dimaksud mari kita sama-sama berdoa semoga kebagian persenan :lol:

Absolutely!! bisa geger dunia persilatan formil lokal :omghaha:
Bukan itu beda lagi ini konsultan nya yg ngasih clue agar lgs ke jerman tanpa lewat kontraktor lokal
 

Fl0gger

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Entah kenapa jerman dalam penjualan alutsista ke indonesia mereka lebih lunak di banding kan ke negara lain terutama bila di sangkut paut kan masalah HAM burger
 

wahyusurya2020

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Bener, soalnya Typhoon Austria sendiri itu manufaktur Jerman, ya jadi lebih baik langsung ke Jerman aja

Seperti case pengadaan LEO ngincer punya belanda akhirnya beli ke jerman dan jerman tidak mengungkit - ungkit tentang HAM dalam penjualan alutsista mereka
 

trishna_amṛta

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And now she is handle economy issues

View attachment 680427
nope, she is playing agent provocateur. Any issue will do just fine, as long she can keep making noise

What is the right word for an attention whore . Justice champion pretender while always try to leverage and flaunting her self like a peacock do ??
Left winger Politician

For R&R like what Singkies provided is actually quite tempting
Not sharing facilities, but providing services like logistic and other stuff
Providing entertainment also quite lucrative business. And we do have plenty of places for that

Where is this word coming from I wonder? Geezzz the govt need better PR in terms of social media/unconventional media to promote the infrastructure development there.:guns:
Its has been around for a while. Unfortunatly our gov't does seem to reluctant for contracting international PR firm to deal with it. From what I can see so far, our gov't response to the narrative has been pretty shallow & lame, not to mention local based and less technically advance.

Trance 1 itu penawaran nya bundle dgn penawaran airbus lainya dgn iming iming upgrade teknologi ke kinian , dan juga masukan dr "konsultan jerman" sangat di jadikan pertimabangan. Karena masukan terdahulu ttg pembelian leo lgs ke jerman saat kita galau setelah permintaan kita di tolak belanda terbukti ces pleng good deal...nah semoga ajah kali ini juga benar walau banyak kalangan meragukan, juga termasuk saya heheheh..
Kita beruntung ga jadi beli Leo A6 ex Landmacht. Kondisi Leo A6 mereka parah sekali, yang operasional sangat sedikit, sedangkan sisanya ga kerawat, bahkan sukur2x masih bisa nembak atau bahkan mesin nya bisa di start. Walaupun refurbished biaya nya akan lebih tinggi per unit nya dibandingkan Leo A4 ex Heer

Entah kenapa jerman dalam penjualan alutsista ke indonesia mereka lebih lunak di banding kan ke negara lain terutama bila di sangkut paut kan masalah HAM burger
Budaya mereka ga malu mengakui kalau sedang butuh duit / potong biaya operasional.
 

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