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Indian stock market overtakes France; becomes sixth biggest

jamahir

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You're free to move to your own "Kalisa" Island and experiment with such a system in your own country.
BTW How do you bankroll around $3billion dollars a day to thousands of companies. Put all the banks together and they can't fund it. Without interest you can't make a profit of the lending. Good luck to you financial experiments.
You say that banks should give loans but charge no interest. How will this work?
1. In modern times the Libyan Jamahiriya ( Libya until 2011 ) had a system-owned bank system ( no private banks ) that lent without interest. Worked well enough.

2. What is this number of three billion dollars a day ?

How will banks pay salaries to its employees or pay rent on the building etc.
The system owns the building and arranges for the salary of its employees. Doesn't the Indian government own the SBI bank and pay its employees too ?

Further, if you consult my economic system proposal the money is just a means of shuffling and obtaining resources, nothing to be so involved and worried about.

Even if we assume that any company can take loan from bank, banks do need certain collateral as mandated by govt. Small firms often have little to offer as collateral, plus their level of risk is high enough for banks to decline loans. For these firms, stock markets are the best source to gain funds. Even large firms need to at times manage their debt levels, so they go for stock funding. I do not understand the harm in it.
You are describing the complicated current system where working capital is not available for various reasons especially for small companies like you describe. Refusal by banks for loans complimented by existence of the stock market. This exists within the larger complicated and wrong socio-economic system. Now if the bank is part of an evolved socio-economic system and exists not to make profit ( traditional money being an artificial construct after all ) but to give loans ( non-interest-based ) to be repaid comfortably then the company can simply go to the bank for working capital. No need for the stock market to exist.

There is a demand for it, then there will be businesses that would cater to those demands.
There is demand in India for motorcycles and dog clothing as well but doesn't mean they are right. :)

Similarly, why do you want to land n number of Indians on mars, and why fund a startup that's planning on it? How do you plan to generate revenue over a project that may or may not take off or before cheaper options available? The former one has more chances of giving returns than this science project.
Years ago some reporter asked Elon Musk what is the business plan for Mars. He said there is none. I think he meant for the moment. Mars may not give immediate returns in India like a car company that sells to the millions of middle class but cars in India are harmful to the country and the world in various ways. The technologies developed for the Mars program will have spin-offs, meaning these technologies will have applications for ordinary and non-ordinary uses on Earth. Just yesterday I was watching YouTube vids of the three-day international space conference organized online by ISRO and one participant spoke of spin-offs from one of the ISRO departments which was involved in IIRC the food and life support system of the Gaganyaan program. We go to Mars in the spirit of adventure but who knows what minerals we may find to exploit there. As it is there are countless asteroids in the Asteroid Belt between Mars and Jupiter and where this is countless mineral wealth waiting for exploitation for Earth and wherever humans will go. Mars orbit can be the staging post for journey to the Asteroid Belt. Don't mining companies from around the world, including India, have mines elsewhere like in Australia or Africa and even under development for under-sea mining ?

And then there is the important point about making humanity multi-planetary for the sake of continuing it in case Earth has a planetary disaster of various kinds. For example just today I read of a Brazilian astronomer videographing a big explosion in the atmosphere of Jupiter probably because of an asteroid crashing into it. Can happen to Earth too since there are quite a few Near Earth Objects who are potential threats. In 2013 an asteroid passed through Russia's skies and part of it crashed into a lake there. The asteroid wasn't detected until its point of atmospheric entry because it came from the direction of the Sun. You can watch that asteroid's / meteor's vids on YT.

So if I was a visionary investor I would invest in an Indian space startup instead of in a dog-friendly restaurant. I will be among the first movers in getting long-term big profit ( in Capitalist terms ) instead of short-term profit in something that is currently popular but may not remain so if the social and political system is changed.
 
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serenity

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Lol Jamahir with black and white only single view.

Like someone said, banks can also be bad but they are often quite necessary. It depends how it is used and controlled and the capital within is monitored. Same with stocks. With China, government has much more control to moderate a little more than USA but recently in USA what happened with Gamestop and billionaires club also seems to indicate their laws for moderation can be enhanced to a greater level than investors thought in the past. One rule for super rich and another rule for everyday speculations from poor.

Stockmarket and investing isn't purely gambling but yeah it involves it. It also isn't all bad. Otherwise how can some companies raise capital? We all use money to facilitate trade which is the basis for innovation and more productivity.

Are you going to say now that productivity itself is also bad to turn and twist? Everything is horrible just your ideal world you have no way to achieve is the only true and best form for humans.
 

Chhatrapati

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In modern times the Libyan Jamahiriya ( Libya until 2011 ) had a system-owned bank system ( no private banks ) that lent without interest. Worked well enough.

2. What is this number of three billion dollars a day ?
1. Well such banking are doomed to fail. There is no profitable banking system that will not charge interest without profit you depend on the government to bail you out, and the Libyan government ran on oil biz. So yeah, not a brilliant plan. Try this in Somalia and see the results

2. That's the amount of money transacted in our stock exchange daily.
There is demand in India for motorcycles and dog clothing as well but doesn't mean they are right. :)
There is and if you start a biz that sell motorcycles it could make profit. Similarity dog clothing, is there a demand? Sure as hell there will be a supplier.
Years ago some reporter asked Elon Musk what is the business plan for Mars. He said there is none. I think he meant for the moment. Mars may not give immediate returns in India like a car company that sells to the millions of middle class but cars in India are harmful to the country and the world in various ways. The technologies developed for the Mars program will have spin-offs, meaning these technologies will have applications for ordinary and non-ordinary uses on Earth. Just yesterday I was watching YouTube vids of the three-day international space conference organized online by ISRO and one participant spoke of spin-offs from one of the ISRO departments which was involved in IIRC the food and life support system of the Gaganyaan program. We go to Mars in the spirit of adventure but who knows what minerals we may find to exploit there. As it is there are countless asteroids in the Asteroid Belt between Mars and Jupiter and where this is countless mineral wealth waiting for exploitation on Earth and wherever humans will go. Mars orbit can be the staging post for journey to the Asteroid Belt. Don't mining companies from around the world, including India, have mines elsewhere like in Australia or Africa and even under development for under-sea mining ?

And then there is the important point about making humanity multi-planetary for the sake of continuing it in case Earth has a planetary disaster of various kinds. For example just today I read of a Brazilian astronomer videographing a big explosion in the atmosphere of Jupiter probably because of an asteroid crashing into it. Can happen to Earth too since there are quite a few Near Earth Objects who are potential threats. In 2013 an asteroid passed through Russia's skies and part of it crashed into a lake there. The asteroid wasn't detected until its point of atmospheric entry because it came from the direction of the Sun. You can watch that asteroid's / meteor's vids on YT.

So if I was a visionary investor I would invest in an Indian space startup instead of in a dog-friendly restaurant. I will be among the first movers in getting long-term big profit ( in Capitalist terms ) instead of short-term profit in something that is currently popular but may not remain
Again its your choice. To use your own words against you, you're gambling that this particular company will be next Elon Muslim that's the risk you take. Similarly in stock, I invested in Tata some months back after doing some research and given they have good fundamentals and sales figures I invested a bunch of capital in it and its already profitable.
 

jamahir

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Lol Jamahir with black and white only single view.
No, I take a systemic, broad, bird's eye view. I am a designer, remember ?

Your points :
Like someone said, banks can also be bad but they are often quite necessary.
Otherwise how can some companies raise capital?
Please read my posts from page# 2.

1. Well such banking are doomed to fail. There is no profitable banking system that will not charge interest without profit you depend on the government to bail you out, and the Libyan government ran on oil biz. So yeah, not a brilliant plan. Try this in Somalia and see the results
1. If Libya ran on oil why can't India run on agriculture, the much-vaunted IT / ITES exports, minerals and finished products like clothing and other finished goods ( google for "India finished goods export" ) ?

2. The concepts I described is not wrong. You will just have to make the effort to attain them. Somalia too will be as comfortable if it adopts the socio-economic and political discipline and system of Libya and sensibly exploits its mineral resources. Just google for "Somalia minerals". Further, Somalia can align with countries like Russia, Venezuela, Syria, Cuba, North Korea, Indonesia and with South Asia. An economic trading bloc which will further enhance Somalia's comforts.

2. That's the amount of money transacted in our stock exchange daily.
Then as I described earlier this becomes nullified in an evolved economic system.

There is and if you start a biz that sell motorcycles it could make profit. Similarity dog clothing, is there a demand? Sure as hell there will be a supplier.
In my neighborhood people, especially louts, zoom about on noisy motorcycles and gather around them creating nuisance. And some people walk about with their bought dogs other than some maintaining stray dogs. Again a nuisance, anti-social behavior, actually should have been a crime. But these are popular. Many people in India struggle to make ends meet yet these louts and these dog maintainers don't bother. Motorcycles, dog clothing and dog-friendly restaurants are popular but should it mean I invest in the organizations enabling them ?

Again its your choice. To use your own words against you, you're gambling that this particular company will be next Elon Muslim that's the risk you take. Similarly in stock, I invested in Tata some months back after doing some research and given they have good fundamentals and sales figures I invested a bunch of capital in it and its already profitable.
1. Elon Muslim ? Auto-correct or something you wanted to point out ?

2. Playing cards with money, betting in horse races and investing in Infosys stocks is gambling. Investing money in an Indian SpaceX is not. How is that not clear ? You are just trying to justify a wrong thing.

3. You invested in Tata and the sales figures will be no doubt good but what do you mean by "good fundamentals" ? Did you consider that the cars it sells to the millions of neo-rich Indian middle class is helping increase the pollution, crime, accidents and general chaos in India and contributes to global climate change ?
 

magra

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The system owns the building and arranges for the salary of its employees. Doesn't the Indian government own the SBI bank and pay its employees too ?
You do know that in India, private banks are doing well whereas other than SBI, the govt banks are mostly running losses. This is because without good incentives, the motivation to do well goes down.
Even SBI charges interest on the loan it gives. Govt would not like to operate a loss making bank for too long. Is the Libyan banking system running on losses?

Further, if you consult my economic system proposal the money is just a means of shuffling and obtaining resources, nothing to be so involved and worried about.
It is not just random shuffling. A good system requires intelligent shuffle in order that the wealth and welfare grows. If there is no incentive, then a lazy person would do half-hearted effort leading to failure of system.
 

applesauce

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For a few days recently I too was of the opinion that a company requiring funds to develop a product or for some experimentation can offer stocks and gather funds but now I have gone back to my original idea that the concept of stock market need not exist. Any working funds required by a company can be taken from the bank - the bank being a single one and run by the system ( no private banks ) and the loan being non-interest-based. The company should be arranged on collective basis with the workers including the leaders all being equal owners. The loan once received can be payed back monthly to the bank by taking an equal portion from the workers money.
thats happens in real life too. that's basically what private-employee owned companies do. except the part where the payment comes out of the employee's pockets and everyone being a equal owner. because a company might need decisively action, you cannot run a company where every action requires the vote of every single shareholder, another company that can react faster will run you into the ground.

Both public and private companies exists, this alone shows that neither one is superior to the other in all cases.

Further we must question the concept of money. It is an artificial construct. Communism calls for the eventual abolition of money but I don't know how that can be done ATM. Communism also calls for the abolition of economic classes ( rich, middle, poor ). In this thread I have presented a new economic system that does away with the traditional money system but does not do away entirely the concept of money itself yet eradicates economic classification. In such a system there is no need for stock markets. The bank will exist only to give out non-interest-based loans for such things like working capital and buying jewelry.
so long as there are shortages, there must be money or something like it. only in a world like star-trek where all needs can be met, can we get rid of money. other wise you must trade and to trade efficiently there must be a medium of exchange.

Even one suicide because of socio-economic reasons is tragic enough. In this particular case it shows that the Chinese saying their country is Communist is a lie.
china has not claim that its reached communism, only that communist is the goal they are striving for. nor is capitalism incompatible with that goal. at most they said they were implementing socialism with chinese characteristics.

the marxist theory goes something like,
tribal economy->early city economy with classes->feudalism where king owns all->capitalism, which by its nature will exploit the lower classes->socialism will rise from the struggle of the lower classes->communist utopia when the world is all socialist and united

I am that Indian member who often speaks of socio-economic suicides in India whether it be of students or farmers. I have for at least 100 times mentioned the 300,000+ Indian farmers who committed suicide just between 1995 and 2015. And below are my recent threads on the topic :




India has been extremely Capitalist for the last 3000 years and this must be changed.
then we agree, there are problems, everyone has problems. that is all.
 

jamahir

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You do know that in India, private banks are doing well whereas other than SBI, the govt banks are mostly running losses.
1. Then all the private banks should be nationalized and all of them and then the other government banks should be under one name - SBI.

2. As I said the existence of a bank should be for one reason only - giving loan, that too on non-interest-basis. If you ask how will it "profit" then that should not be the reason for existence. The bank should exist within the larger progressive socio-economic system which I described in my thread. This will be further made more easy by modern digital wallet technology that is available on smart phones. Any transaction must be recorded by the bank system for security.

This is because without good incentives, the motivation to do well goes down.
What incentives ?

Even SBI charges interest on the loan it gives. Govt would not like to operate a loss making bank for too long.
The Islamic socio-economic system prohibited interest-based economics 1400 years ago. If such a system would have been adopted by India then those 300,000+ Indian farmers would not have committed suicide just between 1995 and 2015. And so many more before and so many after. Add to that other socio-economic elements like making compulsory the weddings to be only done in court with only five people attending ( bride and groom, two witnesses and the court official ), seriously punishing dowry taking and giving and prohibiting people from making two religious pilgrimages every four years and celebrating religious festivals all year round.

Is the Libyan banking system running on losses?
Well, I don't know about the Libyan banking system now because the post-2011 war is continuing but before the invasion the banking system certainly wasn't running on losses. The country didn't even have external debt yet was able to provide a welfare-based society to its citizens.

It is not just random shuffling. A good system requires intelligent shuffle in order that the wealth and welfare grows. If there is no incentive, then a lazy person would do half-hearted effort leading to failure of system.
1. "Wealth distribution" should be nothing but untroubled and free access to resources by the masses. Resources like basic food, housing, healthcare etc. This is what happens generally in Socialist societies and money is just a peripheral element for access to non-immediately-essential needs. Please read my thread to know more. This in other words will also enable a welfare-based society.

2. "If there is no incentive"... What do you mean ?

thats happens in real life too. that's basically what private-employee owned companies do. except the part where the payment comes out of the employee's pockets and everyone being a equal owner. because a company might need decisively action, you cannot run a company where every action requires the vote of every single shareholder, another company that can react faster will run you into the ground.
Well, most company decisions don't need real-time decision-making and can be done in consultation with all workers. In Libya the entire country was run on public debate through direct democracy system called Jamahiriya. From a 2015 thread :
Under Gaddafi’s unique system of direct democracy, traditional institutions of government were disbanded and abolished, and power belonged to the people directly through various committees and congresses.

Far from control being in the hands of one man, Libya was highly decentralized and divided into several small communities that were essentially “mini-autonomous States” within a State. These autonomous States had control over their districts and could make a range of decisions including how to allocate oil revenue and budgetary funds. Within these mini autonomous States, the three main bodies of Libya’s democracy were Local Committees, Basic People’s Congresses and Executive Revolutionary Councils.

The Basic People’s Congress (BPC), or Mu’tamar shaʿbi asāsi was essentially Libya’s functional equivalent of the House of Commons in the United Kingdom or the House of Representatives in the United States. However, Libya’s People’s Congress was not comprised merely of elected representatives who discussed and proposed legislation on behalf of the people; rather, the Congress allowed all Libyans to directly participate in this process. Eight hundred People’s Congresses were set up across the country and all Libyans were free to attend and shape national policy and make decisions over all major issues including budgets, education, industry, and the economy.

In 2009, Gaddafi invited the New York Times to Libya to spend two weeks observing the nation’s direct democracy. The New York Times, that has traditionally been highly critical of Colonel Gaddafi’s democratic experiment, conceded that in Libya, the intention was that

“everyone is involved in every decision…Tens of thousands of people take part in local committee meetings to discuss issues and vote on everything from foreign treaties to building schools.”

The fundamental difference between western democratic systems and the Libyan Jamahiriya’s direct democracy is that in Libya all citizens were allowed to voice their views directly – not in one parliament of only a few hundred wealthy politicians – but in hundreds of committees attended by tens of thousands of ordinary citizens. Far from being a military dictatorship, Libya under Mr. Gaddafi was Africa’s most prosperous democracy.

On numerous occasions Mr. Gaddafi’s proposals were rejected by popular vote during Congresses and the opposite was approved and enacted as legislation.

For instance, on many occasions Mr. Gaddafi proposed the abolition of capital punishment and he pushed for home schooling over traditional schools. However, the People’s Congresses wanted to maintain the death penalty and classic schools, and the will of the People’s Congresses prevailed. Similarly, in 2009, Colonel Gaddafi put forward a proposal to essentially abolish the central government altogether and give all the oil proceeds directly to each family. The People’s Congresses rejected this idea too.
Even Elon Musk wants direct democracy as the political arrangement for Mars colonies.

Also you use the word "vote". I think we must make clear that this should also involve not just a person saying yes or no but also qualify it with his reasoning and possibly provide some other idea. This is how I think it worked in Libya. I quote a section from the Green Book which described the Jamahiriya philosophy :
Plebiscites are a fraud against democracy. Those who vote "yes" or "no" do not, in fact, express their free will but, rather, are silenced by the modern conception of democracy as they are not allowed to say more than "yes" or "no". Such a system is oppressive and tyrannical. Those who vote "no" should express their reasons and why they did not say "yes", and those who say "yes" should verify such agreement and why they did not vote "no". Both should state their wishes and be able to justify their "yes" or "no" vote.
Some days ago I read the sci-fi book The Precipice by Ben Bova which has a lot of the scenes set on a Moon colony called Selene. In one scene there is a decision to be taken that affects all of the permanent residents of Selene so these residents are called to the amphitheatre to appraise the residents and take their ideas.

But you tell me what kinds of real-time decisions have to be made that shouldn't involve the workers ?

so long as there are shortages, there must be money or something like it. only in a world like star-trek where all needs can be met, can we get rid of money. other wise you must trade and to trade efficiently there must be a medium of exchange.
Agreed and that is why I said "but I don't know how that can be done ATM". Though new developments like 3D Printing and Vertical Farming can reduce the shortages greatly.

china has not claim that its reached communism, only that communist is the goal they are striving for.
So 72 years since the founding of the People's Republic and neither has China initiated the "Withering away of the State" ( people's rule, direct democracy ) like happened in Libya nor has China presented an economic model where the traditional money system has been replaced or at least evolved ( like how I have done ). What have the CCP's party theoreticians been doing ?

nor is capitalism incompatible with that goal.
How ?

at most they said they were implementing socialism with chinese characteristics.
Never understood what that means.

then we agree, there are problems, everyone has problems. that is all.
So the Socialists and Communists of the world must link up, discuss and plan like in the older times.
 
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magra

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1. Then all the private banks should be nationalized and all of them and then the other government banks should be under one name - SBI.
As already mentioned, in govt run banks, the incentive for hardwork is less and so are consequences to officials for less hardwork. Hence, in general, private banks perform better. Nationalizing private banks would mean degrading their performance.
Moreover, what you are suggesting is that there should be only one bank - SBI - in the nation. That means monopoly. Monopolization breeds complacency and lack of innovation which drives down performance further.

2. As I said the existence of a bank should be for one reason only - giving loan, that too on non-interest-basis. If you ask how will it "profit" then that should not be the reason for existence. The bank should exist within the larger progressive socio-economic system which I described in my thread. This will be further made more easy by modern digital wallet technology that is available on smart phones. Any transaction must be recorded by the bank system for security.
Forget about profit, how will it even get any funds to give out if it does not give interest to people depositing money within the bank. And if it does give interest and but does not charge it on loan, then it will lead to non-sustainable losses and soon the bank will have to shut down.

The Islamic socio-economic system prohibited interest-based economics 1400 years ago. If such a system would have been adopted by India then those 300,000+ Indian farmers would not have committed suicide just between 1995 and 2015. And so many more before and so many after.
Do you know any place where such a system is running on a national scale for a number of years without losses?

Add to that other socio-economic elements like making compulsory the weddings to be only done in court with only five people attending ( bride and groom, two witnesses and the court official ), seriously punishing dowry taking and giving and prohibiting people from making two religious pilgrimages every four years and celebrating religious festivals all year round.
Having simple weddings is an entire different topic. I do agree on the concept of simple weddings, but we cannot enforce that as people should have the freedom to spend their money as they like on a grand wedding if they so choose to do. If that freedom is taken away, then the incentive to work hard for money is also taken away.

1. "Wealth distribution" should be nothing but untroubled and free access to resources by the masses. Resources like basic food, housing, healthcare etc. This is what happens generally in Socialist societies and money is just a peripheral element for access to non-immediately-essential needs. Please read my thread to know more. This in other words will also enable a welfare-based society.
That free access needs to funded through other means of earning or taxation. Nothing in the world can be entirely free. Someone needs to work for it.
 

HalfMoon

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In this world, only North Korea has no stock market.
Stock market is evil.
pakistan can catch up, dont lose hope.
Who wants the evil stock market?

The concept of stock market was created to loot money from the middle class and the dumb Indians are falling for it.

Muslims are much more intelligent than your lot.
You say that banks should give loans but charge no interest. How will this work?
Interest is haram. Never take or give interest.
 
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truthseeker2010

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Honestly, I don't like it. It's now more than 100% of our GDP. Although the correlation between the two is irrelevant, the appearance of it is a bit uncomfortable for investors. Everyone is expecting a course correction and hopefully it doesn't come any sooner *fingers crossed*
both the US and indian markets are way overpriced, both in terms gdp/mkt cap and PE ratio.
Indian and US PE is in same range, 31-33 way above China 16 and emerging mkts 14.
 

magra

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Interest is haram. Never take or give interest.
Assuming you have some means of income, where do you keep the money? In a secret vault in your home, or in the bank.
If in the bank, do you not earn interest on it?
 

HalfMoon

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Assuming you have some means of income, where do you keep the money? In a secret vault in your home, or in the bank.
If in the bank, do you not earn interest on it?
Why put money in the bank. Why not start a Business?
 

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