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Indian Navy successfully test fires advanced version of BrahMos missile | Watch

Chris Logan

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Pakistan's future is with China and Russia.

We do not need any ties with India and US.
Chinas and Russia's major population centers are far away from Pakistan while Indian markets are right next door, If you dont do it someone else will. You are only stymying your own economy and potential growth.

Im not saying we hold hands and sing combyah. I just want us all to make some money. You can make some money too, why not?
 

JamD

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Capability needs to be answered, agreed.
The answer is ships and submarines that can fire long range land attack cruise missiles? I don't follow the logic but I suspect I know what you are thinking.

To use a medieval analogy - the counter to a sword isn't another sword, it's a shield. Of course, you do need to have a sword too but it's the shield that needs to be tailor made for the opponents sword. Likewise, your sword is designed for the opponent's shield.

So how do you counter Brahmos in my opinion?
1. Shield: Ship- and shore-based air active radar homing missiles (NOT semi-active). It is extremely likely that these missiles will be used in swarms and they fly really fast, so you need to be able to direct your defense missiles in parallel.

I think @Bilal Khan (Quwa) has already pointed out how the the PN Milgem and the Jinnah's will focus on this anti-missile air-defense role as opposed to the 054AP's, which will focus on anti-aircraft air-defense role. In their current configuration, it is the Milgem that will form the most effective shield against Brahmos.


2. Sword: This is probably what you are thinking as the answer to India's capability. Of course, it is a part of the answer.
A. So we need to hit Indian ships at 800 km. Well, I think that's too long of a range for us to detect and track ships at currently. However, I believe systems are being put into place for such a thing. I can assure you that the range of our missiles is not the limiting factor - it is the range at which we can give those missiles targeting data. But there is very strong indication that a sensor net is in the works - both for long-range submerged, surface, and air threats.
B. We need to hit land-based Brahmos sites - we have Baburs for that I think.
 

Areesh

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Capability needs to be answered, agreed.
The answer is ships and submarines that can fire long range land attack cruise missiles? I don't follow the logic but I suspect I know what you are thinking.

To use a medieval analogy - the counter to a sword isn't another sword, it's a shield. Of course, you do need to have a sword too but it's the shield that needs to be tailor made for the opponents sword. Likewise, your sword is designed for the opponent's shield.

So how do you counter Brahmos in my opinion?
1. Shield: Ship- and shore-based air active radar homing missiles (NOT semi-active). It is extremely likely that these missiles will be used in swarms and they fly really fast, so you need to be able to direct your defense missiles in parallel.

I think @Bilal Khan (Quwa) has already pointed out how the the PN Milgem and the Jinnah's will focus on this anti-missile air-defense role as opposed to the 054AP's, which will focus on anti-aircraft air-defense role. In their current configuration, it is the Milgem that will form the most effective shield against Brahmos.


2. Sword: This is probably what you are thinking as the answer to India's capability. Of course, it is a part of the answer.
A. So we need to hit Indian ships at 800 km. Well, I think that's too long of a range for us to detect and track ships at currently. However, I believe systems are being put into place for such a thing. I can assure you that the range of our missiles is not the limiting factor - it is the range at which we can give those missiles targeting data. But there is very strong indication that a sensor net is in the works - both for long-range submerged, surface, and air threats.
B. We need to hit land-based Brahmos sites - we have Baburs for that I think.

Everything you have said is true and makes sense but since @Zarvan wants Pakistan Navy to have big ships (around 7000 tons displacement) with ability to fire LACM having range 1000km so none of you have said would be enough to counter this brahmos missile

Only solution is a 7000 tons destroyer that can fire LACM from its VLS
 

Basel

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We need to do a lot of stuff, but it costs $. Naval programs are not like Army or Air Force ones, they are ridiculously expensive and take a long time to finish.

What PN need to do is have capabilities to watch and hit further then the capabilities of the enemy, if we already have a 400++ km range version of GLCM/SLCM then we need to extend it's range further (as stop gap measure) possibly to 1000km (similar to US Tomahawk CMs), then look to develop other more capable system all around to get ahead of the enemy
 

Pakistani Fighter

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Capability needs to be answered, agreed.
The answer is ships and submarines that can fire long range land attack cruise missiles? I don't follow the logic but I suspect I know what you are thinking.

To use a medieval analogy - the counter to a sword isn't another sword, it's a shield. Of course, you do need to have a sword too but it's the shield that needs to be tailor made for the opponents sword. Likewise, your sword is designed for the opponent's shield.

So how do you counter Brahmos in my opinion?
1. Shield: Ship- and shore-based air active radar homing missiles (NOT semi-active). It is extremely likely that these missiles will be used in swarms and they fly really fast, so you need to be able to direct your defense missiles in parallel.

I think @Bilal Khan (Quwa) has already pointed out how the the PN Milgem and the Jinnah's will focus on this anti-missile air-defense role as opposed to the 054AP's, which will focus on anti-aircraft air-defense role. In their current configuration, it is the Milgem that will form the most effective shield against Brahmos.


2. Sword: This is probably what you are thinking as the answer to India's capability. Of course, it is a part of the answer.
A. So we need to hit Indian ships at 800 km. Well, I think that's too long of a range for us to detect and track ships at currently. However, I believe systems are being put into place for such a thing. I can assure you that the range of our missiles is not the limiting factor - it is the range at which we can give those missiles targeting data. But there is very strong indication that a sensor net is in the works - both for long-range submerged, surface, and air threats.
B. We need to hit land-based Brahmos sites - we have Baburs for that I think.
What about acquiring Type 052Ds with HQ 9?
 

JamD

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What about acquiring Type 052Ds with HQ 9?
The ship isn't the issue. The issue is SARH vs ARH air-defense missile - the ability to target a lot of threats simultaneously and in quick succession.

Everything you have said is true and makes sense but since @Zarvan wants Pakistan Navy to have big ships (around 7000 tons displacement) with ability to fire LACM having range 1000km so none of you have said would be enough to counter this brahmos missile

Only solution is a 7000 tons destroyer that can fire LACM from its VLS
What if I put 4000 tons anchor on the MILGEM and painted LACM on the CAMM-ER?
 

FuturePAF

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None required. While the Brahmos is a great missile against an adversary that does not has a sophisticated AD, against a foe like Pakistan the Brahmos will be intercepted and neutralized. Just look at the height it flies at, look at the smoke and the faster it travels the higher the IR signature that will light up Pakistan's radars as soon as it is launched.
Considering the engine and the seeker come from Russia, the Indians might be able to test one, but fielding them in numbers for the foreseeable future will be harder with the effect the Ukraine war is having on the Russian military industrial complex.

Countering the Brahmins and systems are done with an offset strategy. Taking out the launch platforms (or anywhere in the logistical support of the system) one way or another is the best way; before it launches. Next would be having the ability to knock it out, followed by ways to deceive it where possible. Finally making the arrangements to take the hit and still be able to function onto the objective; resilience through redundancy.

Offensive capabilities help in so far as being able to dish out as much as you take, to keep the enemy defensive as much as possible.

trying to go for military parity with India is a losing battle, Pakistan will overreach and it will take resources away from the civilian population. It's in everybody's best interest to be good neighbor and trade.
Just a question, did you go to West Point?
 
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mudas777

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trying to go for military parity with India is a losing battle, Pakistan will overreach and it will take resources away from the civilian population. It's in everybody's best interest to be good neighbor and trade.

It applies to the India too as well as rest of the countries. Show weakness and then you will join the list of the countries like Iraq, Syria, Libya and what not. Firstly we need to liberate our Kashmir and then trade will be an option and thanks for your smutty advice and like your name your advise is a non starter and a bias one and our response will come sooner or latter. I always wonder how Indian's have got White's names must be some complex and Brill cream effect any better idea?
 

Oom

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Ships don’t necessarily fight ships, just like tanks don’t necessarily fight tanks. It’s the entire systems which engage each other. Pakistan should continue growing it sub sea assets.
 

Cookie Monster

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trying to go for military parity with India is a losing battle, Pakistan will overreach and it will take resources away from the civilian population. It's in everybody's best interest to be good neighbor and trade.
This is a fool's errand, but it's also what India wants, to bankrupt yourselves. Remember Gen 5 warfare is multi-vectored and Pakistan is losing.
Pakistan has never tried to reach parity with India...the strategy has been to keep minimum effective deterrence. Same goes for PN...they don't need to compete ship for ship...an effective A2AD strategy(coastal batteries, submarines, antiship ballistic missiles) with a decent surface fleet and air cover...
...is enough to keep IN from blockading Pakistan.
 

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