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Indian court: We dont want Taliban (sic) in country

rubyjackass

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You have to think of a legit example first if you want to make a point...

Islam does not set rules that dont make sense and hinder normal life; otherwise it is not a rule. That's the point you dont seem to understand.

I did not say that particular dress is set by Islam. Read carefully. I know Islam does n't impose it.

This is not necessary for Islma as scuh, but he claims he wants to follow the Prophet(PBUH) in thi s way and that the school should allow his religious practice. So will you allow him or not??
 

rubyjackass

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And I guess we all agree that a beard is not necessary for being a muslim?
I have seen a gr8 numbr of muslims without a beard. Now look at the question above...
 

notsuperstitious

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nobody answers my question :(

If in pakistan one decides its his religious duty to wear the arabic dress or headgear to school instead of the uniform shirt, pants and a tie, is it allowed?

now don't go into 'the headgear is not required' - its a matter of belief. many also believe that even beard is not 'required'. not a pillar of islam is it? its accepted principle in india that its not required, just the same way wearing saffron clothes not reqd for hindus, growing hair in a particular way not 'required' for brahmin hindus etc etc. pls guys be reasonable, there are real issues you can debate constructively instead of just bashing india.
 

Xtremeownage

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Isn't farz defined or is it a matter of belief? i mean could cutting beard be haram?

For sikhs (a special kind, some oath or something, i forget) the five Ks are mandatory. for such a sikh cutting hair is haram.

Having a beard is a part of Islam! Cutting it is haram, but many Muslims do cut it, like myself! It is wrong!

Just like many Sikhs cut their hair!
 

anathema

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Actually Islamic/Sikh rules came before the school was established, so you can't really say this rule came first, so it is valid. I am almost certain Indian Civil code and constitution came before the convent school.

If there is full freedom for religion, I should be allowed to form a religion tomorrow that requires everyone to paint their hair purple and then go to school with purple hair. This is not the case in India. India allows freedom of religion but the written legal rules only go as far as civil code does. Whenever religion and other rules clash, the courts usually hold that other rules hold. If I formed a religion that advocated killing my neighbour, the court would jail me for advocting murder. So as far as Indian courts go, this is a perfect judgment - a religious belief clashes with school rule and court holds the school rule.

I would be concerned if the specific school allowed Sikhs to keep beard and Muslims not to. That would be discrimination (in my opinion). What is not clear in the article is whether the convent school even allowed Sikhs to keep a beard.

wtf,
Hmmm I think me and you are saying the same thing...albeit different words ....Cheers.
 
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It's called the freedom to profess one's faith. The Indian court has proclaimed that keeping a beard would make you a terrorist like Taliban!

This is sick. Thank god for Pakistan!

Freedom is not a virute that you can practise behest of the norms of a secular country.
The armed forces have layed down rules that date back to 1910. Particularly those concerning religion. This is not a new rule. And since it is a rule, every armed forces personalle has to abide by it, no exception allowed. If you cant abide by the rules, leave the force.

make you a terrorist like Taliban!

The court never said that you couldnt keep a beard if you are not a part of the armed forces. The person in question can leave the force and grow as a big a beard as he wants. As far as looking like "taliban" is concerned, that was said in light humour, and not in a way that would be controversial. People with a mature mind, would not take it at face value. After deny as you may, there is a stigma created by the islamic extremest all around the world. Since you are an Islamic majority harbouring terror, you dont seem to like it. But no-one in India thinks it is controversial, or undermines the right of a religion in any way.
 

Tombstone

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nobody answers my question :(

If in pakistan one decides its his religious duty to wear the arabic dress or headgear to school instead of the uniform shirt, pants and a tie, is it allowed?

now don't go into 'the headgear is not required' - its a matter of belief. many also believe that even beard is not 'required'. not a pillar of islam is it? its accepted principle in india that its not required, just the same way wearing saffron clothes not reqd for hindus, growing hair in a particular way not 'required' for brahmin hindus etc etc. pls guys be reasonable, there are real issues you can debate constructively instead of just bashing india.

first of all the 'Arabic Dress' that you are talking about isn't arabic at all. The idea behind that dress is to wear loose clothes so that a woman's body isn't seen as if it's carved out. It's worn by half a billion muslim women throughout the world so please dont call it the arabic dess.

Secondly, show some respect! Headgear? How would you feel if i call a sikh a 'diaperhead' or a 'towelhead' for that matter? The proper term is hijab. If you are too much of an ignorant to research the name of that important item then why even bother asking questions?

And by the way your question doesnt make any sense. If you have ever been to muslim countries you would know that its a matter of choice and self belief to do all those things. The basic purpose is to follow the islamic way of life and if someone doesn't wear all that it doesn't neccessarily means that they aren not muslims.
 

wtf

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wtf,
Hmmm I think me and you are saying the same thing...albeit different words ....Cheers.

Where we differ is that I would not say that a court should not need to judge whether beard is needed by Sikhs/Muslims or not. If it does not hurt anyone else then all the evidence needed should be a claim by a person that "this is my religion".If it hurts anyone else, court should stop it.
 

Private.Ryan

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Having a beard is a part of Islam! Cutting it is haram, but many Muslims do cut it, like myself! It is wrong!

Just like many Sikhs cut their hair!

Cutting of hair by a sikh is much much worse than shaving the beard by a Muslim.By cutting his hair, the person no longer remains a 'pure sikh'(the 5 K's theory) and loses the tag of being a 'saccha sardar'.Shaving the beard is a very common practice among Muslims,at least here in India, so there is no big deal about it.

Anyways, I think the decision of the court was correct and should be respected.
But such comments coming from the top court is shameful.
 

karnivore

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All said and done, there is one tiny thing that is really troubling me. Why would a kid (since he is seeking admission to a school, I would assume he is below 18) gloss so much over religion. So much so, that he had to drag his potential educators to the court. Legally, he is not even considered to be mature enough to opine on matters of national interest and yet, here he is, trying to hold an educational institute to ransom.

Shouldn't he be doing what kids of his age do - study or concentrate on building the rest of his life or enjoy his time or do anything other than getting embroiled in court cases. Probably its time for us to get into deep introspection, about what is wrong with these kids.

I wonder, why and under what circumstances, does religion take over the studenthood.
 

Torpedo

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I know plenty of clean shaven sikhs, they cut not only their facial, even the hair on their head. They are firm religious sikhs, but chose to cut their hair.

Same with muslims. Not all muslims wear the beard, although a majority believe it is an essential farz to do so.

Well, this decision is taken when a Sikh boy is new-born.

This decision is binding on them and it cannot be changed throughout the life.
 

Torpedo

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The majority of muslim scholars believe it is wajib (a classification of farz) to keep a beard and haram to shave it. There are those who disagree with that opinion.

Isn't it enough, though, that a person feels it is their religious duty to perform a certain act, for them to have permission to perforum it? Also, a religion that is protected by teh constitution, a religion whose civil laws are respected and enforced by the state, such as is the case in the Rep. of India?

Then how come this student is the only one to complain about the things?

Sikhs ALL OVER THE WORLD grow their beard.For them, its necessity. But, a Muslim CAN (and many times, DOES) shave the beard.

Slightly off topic, but this debate reminds me the thread about "Indian first or Muslim first". This is the situation you need to have preferences. And its better if you are 'Indian first'.
 

Screaming Skull

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Mon, Apr 6

Muslim organisations are up in arms over an alleged comment on Monday by a Supreme Court judge, who reportedly cited "Talibanisation" while turning down a Muslim student's plea to sport a beard in school. Now, the debate over the Muslim beard -- commonly considered an Islamic virtue rather than an immutable tenet - has come full circle.

The Jamiat Ulama-i-Hind, a Muslim mass organisation, filed a broader case last month in the highest court, angling for a far-reaching ruling to allow Muslims to keep beards unconditionally, like Sikhs. The Jamiat case is likely to be one of the most fascinating courtroom duels over an Islamic emblem outside the Muslim world.

Here's why. It is not often that an Indian civil case rests largely on the validity of anecdotes from the Islamic world.

Evidence in support of the beard ranges from 1,000-year-old Islamic injunctions from the Hadith (Prophetic traditions) to the Hukum ul Islam, a famous treatise in Arabic. The English translation was specially procured from London's Dar At-Tawheed Publications.

"Our contention is that it is essential for Muslims to keep a beard in the light of the texts and traditions," Anis Suhrawardy, the lawyer representing Jamiat leader Arshad Madani said. Just in case the court rules in favour of the Jamiat, India could become the first non-Muslim country to uphold the Muslim's unfettered right to sport a beard.

Few Muslims think that keeping a beard could amount to supporting the Taliban's extremist character. "I don't dispute a particular judgement but if keeping a beard is akin to being a Taliban, I am proud to be one," Jamiat leader Mahmood Madani told HT. Two previous cases over a right to keep a beard, both involving employees in the armed forces, prompted the special leave petition filed by the Jamiat.

In defence organisations, a person is allowed a beard if it was sported on joining service. Most Muslims agree that the beard has great religious significance but it is commonly treated as non-essential.
 

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