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Yasser76

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keep your fingers,crossed yasser
maybe your correct
as they will.be busy inducting
5 regiments of s400
repeat combat drones
and more Barak 8 sam instead

will.see
Again, maybe it is your default setting now to mention other (foreign) procurments. S-400, Baraks etc do not replace MIG-21s.

Tejas was supposed to act as a replacement on a large scale for older types. Realistically if this will not happen and MIG-21s and Jaguars retire (with no new Rafale orders even placed), by 2025 you may well be looking at an IAF the same size as the PAF. This does not even take into account potential J-10Cs purchase (unlike you I deal in facts not rumours so will discard J-10C from PAF plans until confirmed).

By 2025 you can expect JF-17 production to have finished and PAF/PAC moving on to next step.Maybe even then in 4 years you will still be on this forum talking about a new Rafale order "being confirmed soon".......
 

The Maverick

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Again, maybe it is your default setting now to mention other (foreign) procurments. S-400, Baraks etc do not replace MIG-21s.

Tejas was supposed to act as a replacement on a large scale for older types. Realistically if this will not happen and MIG-21s and Jaguars retire (with no new Rafale orders even placed), by 2025 you may well be looking at an IAF the same size as the PAF. This does not even take into account potential J-10Cs purchase (unlike you I deal in facts not rumours so will discard J-10C from PAF plans until confirmed).

By 2025 you can expect JF-17 production to have finished and PAF/PAC moving on to next step.Maybe even then in 4 years you will still be on this forum talking about a new Rafale order "being confirmed soon".......

numbers,are nothing
the Israelis have less than 400 planes,
but their equipment network centric operations training and mentality means they can destroy air forces much larger .

when you have over 400 fighters with Rafale mirage2000 and over 350 mki and mig29 combined backed by s400 multi layered air shield you can very comfortable In winning any short war against pakistan air Force.
technology wise India is now streets ahead
there is nothing in the class of s400.or rafales,or the drone tech that India deploys now or imminently.
 

Yasser76

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numbers,are nothing
the Israelis have less than 400 planes,
but their equipment network centric operations training and mentality means they can destroy air forces much larger .

when you have over 400 fighters with Rafale mirage2000 and over 350 mki and mig29 combined backed by s400 multi layered air shield you can very comfortable In winning any short war against pakistan air Force.
technology wise India is now streets ahead
there is nothing in the class of s400.or rafales,or the drone tech that India deploys now or imminently.
Ye3s, totally agree on teh Israeli example, and even Indian observers mention the strides PAF has made compared to IAF in these matters. On Feb 27th a network centric PAF performed well. The investments made in training and AEW show this. I would argue here IAF needs to catch up in terms of more training and more AEW assets.

Indians keep talking about being way ahead of PAF, that was the case in Feb 27th too.

Numbers matter in the context of a hostile China and facing PAF. SU-30 fast becoming dated with no upgrade even signed off yet. IAF will struggle.
 

The Maverick

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Ye3s, totally agree on teh Israeli example, and even Indian observers mention the strides PAF has made compared to IAF in these matters. On Feb 27th a network centric PAF performed well. The investments made in training and AEW show this. I would argue here IAF needs to catch up in terms of more training and more AEW assets.

Indians keep talking about being way ahead of PAF, that was the case in Feb 27th too.

Numbers matter in the context of a hostile China and facing PAF. SU-30 fast becoming dated with no upgrade even signed off yet. IAF will struggle.
in a two front war which I think will.never happen India will lose badly.
against pakistan I'm.super confident

there are huge diffencues I your military power
starting with resource to sustain a,war
lack of strategic depth
lack of modern high end fighters and heavy multi role fighters
too many obselete assets near 40% ie around 150 of your 350 fighters are f7 and mirage 5
even then thunder block 1and 2 is no match to dated mki or mig29 upg
your hope is, f16 keeps you afloat and awacs and China pressure in ladakh
 

safari2021

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Ye3s, totally agree on teh Israeli example, and even Indian observers mention the strides PAF has made compared to IAF in these matters. On Feb 27th a network centric PAF performed well. The investments made in training and AEW show this. I would argue here IAF needs to catch up in terms of more training and more AEW assets.

Indians keep talking about being way ahead of PAF, that was the case in Feb 27th too.

Numbers matter in the context of a hostile China and facing PAF. SU-30 fast becoming dated with no upgrade even signed off yet. IAF will struggle.
Who told you that su30 mki is fast becoming dated?
Ye3s, totally agree on teh Israeli example, and even Indian observers mention the strides PAF has made compared to IAF in these matters. On Feb 27th a network centric PAF performed well. The investments made in training and AEW show this. I would argue here IAF needs to catch up in terms of more training and more AEW assets.

Indians keep talking about being way ahead of PAF, that was the case in Feb 27th too.

Numbers matter in the context of a hostile China and facing PAF. SU-30 fast becoming dated with no upgrade even signed off yet. IAF will struggle.
India needs to protect these three places

Ladakh
Arunachal
Uttarakhand

So if u deploy 2 in ladakh... that will tackle
Pak+China + Uttarakhand
(remember china only have 150 su mkk to counter that)

Again deploying 2 in arunachal will tackle sikkim bhutan plus northeast

On top of that... We will have 5 s400 batteries
(3 at pak border and 2 in china border... One in ladakh another in arunachal)
Plus XR sam and Mrsam coming into the play
And we already have s300v advanced version (6 batteries in total)

I guess by 2027....our Quad, Air defence, air force, navy - poseidon plus submarines will become even more stronger and plug the existing gaps...

Only russian inventory like...

Su35, su 30mkk, su27 are potent jets

Rest of the J series and chengdu planes all are shit because we already know russian engines are shit.. On top of that china uses its own engine... Just imagine how bad these odd fighter jets will be

Engine.. + poor jamming system+ poor radar wont be able to guide R77 or lets say pl12...

So 1000s odd fighter jets of china are basically shit

Rafale and SU-30s need to play dual role...

Rest of the jets should be placed against pak

Like Mirage, mig 29 upg and tejas
Su30s armed with brahmos in andaman will make Chowmeins out of their navy in indian ocean..
 
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Yasser76

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in a two front war which I think will.never happen India will lose badly.
against pakistan I'm.super confident

there are huge diffencues I your military power
starting with resource to sustain a,war
lack of strategic depth
lack of modern high end fighters and heavy multi role fighters
too many obselete assets near 40% ie around 150 of your 350 fighters are f7 and mirage 5
even then thunder block 1and 2 is no match to dated mki or mig29 upg
your hope is, f16 keeps you afloat and awacs and China pressure in ladakh
Yeah, many were super confident on Feb 27th too.....

PAC will start churning out AESA equipped planes, so rather then talk lets see what happens....
Who told you that su30 mki is fast becoming dated?


India needs to protect these three places

Ladakh
Arunachal
Uttarakhand

So if u deploy 2 in ladakh... that will tackle
Pak+China + Uttarakhand
(remember china only have 150 su mkk to counter that)

Again deploying 2 in arunachal will tackle sikkim bhutan plus northeast

On top of that... We will have 5 s400 batteries
(3 at pak border and 2 in china border... One in ladakh another in arunachal)
Plus XR sam and Mrsam coming into the play
And we already have s300v advanced version (6 batteries in total)

I guess by 2027....our Quad, Air defence, air force, navy - poseidon plus submarines will become even more stronger and plug the existing gaps...

Only russian inventory like...

Su35, su 30mkk, su27 are potent jets

Rest of the J series and chengdu planes all are shit because we already know russian engines are shit.. On top of that china uses its own engine... Just imagine how bad these odd fighter jets will be

Engine.. + poor jamming system+ poor radar wont be able to guide R77 or lets say pl12...

So 1000s odd fighter jets of china are basically shit

Rafale and SU-30s need to play dual role...

Rest of the jets should be placed against pak

Like Mirage, mig 29 upg and tejas
Su30s armed with brahmos in andaman will make Chowmeins out of their navy in indian ocean..

The current SU-30 is still using technology from the early 90s. That is 30 year old radars, although the Bars is powerful it will easily be jammed by modern AESA radars. The RWR is an old DRDO system of questionable effectivness and I believe even the IAF are unhappy with the R-77 performance (especially after Feb 27th), which in turns limits the BVR capability of the SU-30.

No upgrade to the SU-30 has been signed off.

If you readu up on J-10C, J-20 and J-16 and still claim Chinese are shit then we best leave the argument there. I cannot debate with this level of ignorance on aviation affairs.
 
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safari2021

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Yeah, many were super confident on Feb 27th too.....

PAC will start churning out AESA equipped planes, so rather then talk lets see what happens....



The current SU-30 is still using technology from the early 90s. That is 30 year old radars, although the Bars is powerful it will easily be jammed by modern AESA radars. The RWR is an old DRDO system of questionable effectivness and I believe even the IAF are unhappy with the R-77 performance (especially after Feb 27th), which in turns limits the BVR capability of the SU-30.

No upgrade to the SU-30 has been signed off.

If you readu up on J-10C, J-20 and J-16 and still claim Chinese are shit then we best leave the argument there. I cannot debate with this level of ignorance on aviation affairs.
It's worth noting that N011M(radar of su30 mki) is not simply a PESA, but instead, it's a transition between PESA and AESA in that it adopts technologies from both: each transceiver on the antenna array of N011M has its own receiver amplifier, which is the same as AESA, and with noise level of 3dB, which is also in the same class of AESA arrays. However, for transmitting, N011M uses PESA technology in that a single Chelnok traveling-wave tube is used for EGSP-6A transmitter. There are three receiving channels for N011M.

N011M has a search range of 400 km and a tracking range of 200 km, with 60 km in the rear in the air-to-air mode.
Yeah, many were super confident on Feb 27th too.....

PAC will start churning out AESA equipped planes, so rather then talk lets see what happens....



The current SU-30 is still using technology from the early 90s. That is 30 year old radars, although the Bars is powerful it will easily be jammed by modern AESA radars. The RWR is an old DRDO system of questionable effectivness and I believe even the IAF are unhappy with the R-77 performance (especially after Feb 27th), which in turns limits the BVR capability of the SU-30.

No upgrade to the SU-30 has been signed off.

If you readu up on J-10C, J-20 and J-16 and still claim Chinese are shit then we best leave the argument there. I cannot debate with this level of ignorance on aviation affairs.
The Su-30MKI’s superb agility and state of the art ECM make the AIM-120 series AMRAAM an impractical weapon at BVR. The AIM-120’s seeker head is limited to x-band range of frequencies. It’s behind today’s active radar homing missiles in defeating counter measures.
The Elta EL/M-8222 Jammer pod carried by Su-30MKI have a set of receivers which can identify what frequencies the radar has changed to and focus on that frequency, making it impossible to maintain a constant lock on the Su-30MKI.

Providing mid course guidance to the AMRAAM’s would also be intermittent due to jamming. When or if an AMRAAM becomes active, frequencies emitted from it’s much smaller x band seeker head would also be easily jammed, reducing it to a semi-active radar homing seeker.
AMRAAM’s limited effectiveness against fast and agile targets at BVR and use of ECM by both aircraft, the engagement will progress into a dogfight. The art of missile evasion however requires some skill familiarity with the physics of missiles and a rookie pilot who is not well versed in these techniques is subject to a BVR hit.
 
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Yasser76

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It's worth noting that N011M(radar of su30 mki) is not simply a PESA, but instead, it's a transition between PESA and AESA in that it adopts technologies from both: each transceiver on the antenna array of N011M has its own receiver amplifier, which is the same as AESA, and with noise level of 3dB, which is also in the same class of AESA arrays. However, for transmitting, N011M uses PESA technology in that a single Chelnok traveling-wave tube is used for EGSP-6A transmitter. There are three receiving channels for N011M.

N011M has a search range of 400 km and a tracking range of 200 km, with 60 km in the rear in the air-to-air mode.
As you say, it is not a full AESA and certainly will not keep up with the very latest AESAs from the West and China, who incidentally, have had 30 years developing ECM/ECCM to specfically counter the N011. The fact the SU-30s have not been though any sort of MLU in 30 years clearly shows it will be vulnerable to modern ECM as proven on Feb 27th.

At the very minimum IAF should of installed a AESA into it.

The LITENING III pod still uses still images for recce, and in noway compare to the Sniper or AESEL Pods.

I would compare SU-30 to the F-16 C Block 30 in terms of its tech.
 

safari2021

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As you say, it is not a full AESA and certainly will not keep up with the very latest AESAs from the West and China, who incidentally, have had 30 years developing ECM/ECCM to specfically counter the N011. The fact the SU-30s have not been though any sort of MLU in 30 years clearly shows it will be vulnerable to modern ECM as proven on Feb 27th.

At the very minimum IAF should of installed a AESA into it.

The LITENING III pod still uses still images for recce, and in noway compare to the Sniper or AESEL Pods.

I would compare SU-30 to the F-16 C Block 30 in terms of its tech.
1628163416149.png

Do you really think that a fighter jet is useless because it didn't fire the missile in combat. Actually, Su 30MKI couldn't fire its BVRAAM because of the following reasons:
▪It was outclassed by F16 because of altitude. On 27th Feb, the F16s were at 30,000 or 35,000ft while Mki was at 16,000ft. So, F16 was at an advatage to lock and target the Su 30 with its AMRAAM because High Height=High Range. The MKI was at low atltitude and therefore, it was necessary to climb and then lock the F16 because Low Height=Low Range.
▪ One of the main reasons to fly at such a low height was that Su 30MKI was tasked to provide air cover for Indian Military Installations that was target of PAF Jets.
▪When F16 launched its AMRAAM, Su 30 performed evasive manuevers while launching chaff and flares so it distracted the pilot from taking a lock at the F16.
▪Su 30MKI pilot couldn't take the risk to ignore the incoming AMRAAM for the purposes of engaging the enemy fighter as Su 30 is most valuable asset of IAF so the pilot had a responsibilty to protect the asset.
▪Su 30MKI already showed its true potential when it succesfully dodged the AMRAAMs
As you say, it is not a full AESA and certainly will not keep up with the very latest AESAs from the West and China, who incidentally, have had 30 years developing ECM/ECCM to specfically counter the N011. The fact the SU-30s have not been though any sort of MLU in 30 years clearly shows it will be vulnerable to modern ECM as proven on Feb 27th.

At the very minimum IAF should of installed a AESA into it.

The LITENING III pod still uses still images for recce, and in noway compare to the Sniper or AESEL Pods.

I would compare SU-30 to the F-16 C Block 30 in terms of its tech.
• For Electronic Warfare, it is equipped with Indigenous Radar Warning Reciever (RWR), "Tarang". Israeli Elta EL/M-8222 is used as primary self-protection jammer of Su 30MKI that enables incredibly robust capability when it comes to evading, degrading, spoofing and blinding enemy surface to air missile and search radar installations.
• On 27th February, Su 30MKI dodged at least 4-5 AMRAAMs fired by PAF F-16. The evasive manuevers, chaff and flares used by Su 30MKI proved its capability in combat.
 

Yasser76

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View attachment 767561
Do you really think that a fighter jet is useless because it didn't fire the missile in combat. Actually, Su 30MKI couldn't fire its BVRAAM because of the following reasons:
▪It was outclassed by F16 because of altitude. On 27th Feb, the F16s were at 30,000 or 35,000ft while Mki was at 16,000ft. So, F16 was at an advatage to lock and target the Su 30 with its AMRAAM because High Height=High Range. The MKI was at low atltitude and therefore, it was necessary to climb and then lock the F16 because Low Height=Low Range.
▪ One of the main reasons to fly at such a low height was that Su 30MKI was tasked to provide air cover for Indian Military Installations that was target of PAF Jets.
▪When F16 launched its AMRAAM, Su 30 performed evasive manuevers while launching chaff and flares so it distracted the pilot from taking a lock at the F16.
▪Su 30MKI pilot couldn't take the risk to ignore the incoming AMRAAM for the purposes of engaging the enemy fighter as Su 30 is most valuable asset of IAF so the pilot had a responsibilty to protect the asset.
▪Su 30MKI already showed its true potential when it succesfully dodged the AMRAAMs

• For Electronic Warfare, it is equipped with Indigenous Radar Warning Reciever (RWR), "Tarang". Israeli Elta EL/M-8222 is used as primary self-protection jammer of Su 30MKI that enables incredibly robust capability when it comes to evading, degrading, spoofing and blinding enemy surface to air missile and search radar installations.
• On 27th February, Su 30MKI dodged at least 4-5 AMRAAMs fired by PAF F-16. The evasive manuevers, chaff and flares used by Su 30MKI proved its capability in combat.

You know you are agreeing with me right? The fact that the SU-30s were kept at bay by F-16s and could not influence the fight or even get off a shot but had to preserve themselves (as you admit) says everything. No reason to think things will be any different in the future unless the SU-30 gets a better radar and better missiles. Claiming it proved it's worth by evasive manouvres and flares is a bit like me saying I proved my worth in a boxing match by not being hit. Does not make me a good fighter. Also many claim a SU-30 was actually downed, although no proof of this.

The Elta system in no way shape or form effected events that day in terms of stopping the destruction of the MIG-21 (which are equipped with them). The pod is now over 20 years old and out of mainstream Israeli service. In fact it can be argued this may explain the Indian rush to replace it
 

safari2021

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You know you are agreeing with me right? The fact that the SU-30s were kept at bay by F-16s and could not influence the fight or even get off a shot but had to preserve themselves (as you admit) says everything. No reason to think things will be any different in the future unless the SU-30 gets a better radar and better missiles. Claiming it proved it's worth by evasive manouvres and flares is a bit like me saying I proved my worth in a boxing match by not being hit. Does not make me a good fighter. Also many claim a SU-30 was actually downed, although no proof of this.

The Elta system in no way shape or form effected events that day in terms of stopping the destruction of the MIG-21 (which are equipped with them). The pod is now over 20 years old and out of mainstream Israeli service. In fact it can be argued this may explain the Indian rush to replace it
What about the DARE jamming pods?
 

Lord Of Gondor

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Interestingly the CAS is on a two nation foreign visit
The UAE





Photo in front of the Bespoke for UAEAF. F-16 Block-60
Images by the Air Force
And then to Israel



A flight in the Ra'am!
Images by Israeli Air Force
 

The Maverick

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Yeah, many were super confident on Feb 27th too.....

PAC will start churning out AESA equipped planes, so rather then talk lets see what happens....



The current SU-30 is still using technology from the early 90s. That is 30 year old radars, although the Bars is powerful it will easily be jammed by modern AESA radars. The RWR is an old DRDO system of questionable effectivness and I believe even the IAF are unhappy with the R-77 performance (especially after Feb 27th), which in turns limits the BVR capability of the SU-30.

No upgrade to the SU-30 has been signed off.

If you readu up on J-10C, J-20 and J-16 and still claim Chinese are shit then we best leave the argument there. I cannot debate with this level of ignorance on aviation affairs.

firstly what China field has no impact on pakistan you will.fight with your modest air power be it mirages or thunders.or f16 if they still.work in future .

second mki is not in service 3 decades the first batch of mki arrived in 2004.

we intend starting mlu in 2024 ie 2 decade point

the Russian bvrs have already been.upgraded to new variants with better seekers and range and Astra integrated since 2019.

finally comparing a f16 block.30.with mki beast is a joke

since f16 block 30 has no pesa radar no.hmd no tvc no.hobs missle they would be cannon fodder
 

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