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India plans to procure 1,700 Future Ready Combat Vehicles to replace T-72M Ajeya tanks

iLION12345_1

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What I am more excited is future 152 MM tank gun to be mounted on this tank.... is there any tank already in service with 152 MM gun as most of the tanks I see are always with 125 MM gun... is there any plans for your VT4 to upgrade it with this type of gun?
The largest tank guns at the moment are 120 and 125mm, the difference is then in calibers, For example Leo 2A7 has a 120mm 55 calibre gun, Al-Khalid has a 125mm 48 calibre gun, while the former is 120mm it’s longer in calibres, latter is 125mm but shorter in calibers.
152mm gun on a tank is unnecessary for now. We won’t be seeing those on tanks anywhere in the near future, not even by 2030 imo. It is entirely possible, but not logical. The most we will see is 130-135mm guns like the Germans are offering for Leo 2.

A 152mm gun would massively increase the size of the turret because of the breech, and T-14 is already rather massive. Not to mention the recoil and it’s effect on the tanks systems and it’s accuracy, weight, the much bigger ammo (means low ammo capacity), changes to the auto-loader. On the other hand it would massively increase penetration and range, so it will take time to develop a gun that can balance all these, It would need a lot of changes from the ground up. It is highly unlikely T-14 with a 152mm gun will go past test stage before 2030.
On top of that modern 125 and upcoming 130mm guns are more than enough for modern armor if you have modern projectiles. So 152mm guns on tanks can become a reality when and if modern armor systems become strong enough, but then one has to consider wether it would just be smarter to invest more in Rocket projectiles and not make bigger guns. As the former might be cheaper and more reliable. That we will only see as the future gets closer.

VT-4, AK-1, T90 or any modern tank can also be equipped with bigger guns when and if it is needed, as all modern MBTs were designed with modularity in mind. That’s why the German Leo and British Challengers are looking into 130mm guns despite being old designs. It won’t be anymore difficult than it will be to put them on a T-14. As in both cases a new turret, new auto-loader and many similar new sub-systems would be required to deal with the recoil and accuracy. The only difference is that Russia may already be trying to develop such a gun.
 
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vishwambhar

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The largest tank guns at the moment are 120 and 125mm, the difference is then in calibers, For example Leo 2A7 has a 120mm 55 calibre gun, Al-Khalid has a 125mm 48 calibre gun, while the former is 120mm it’s longer in calibres, latter is 125mm but shorter in calibers.
152mm gun on a tank is unnecessary for now. We won’t be seeing those on tanks anywhere in the near future, not even by 2030 imo. It is entirely possible, but not logical. The most we will see is 130-135mm guns like the Germans are offering for Leo 2.

A 152mm gun would massively increase the size of the turret because of the breech, and T-14 is already rather massive. Not to mention the recoil and it’s effect on the tanks systems and it’s accuracy, weight, the much bigger ammo (means low ammo capacity), changes to the auto-loader. On the other hand it would massively increase penetration and range, so it will take time to develop a gun that can balance all these, It would need a lot of changes from the ground up. It is highly unlikely T-14 with a 152mm gun will go past test stage before 2030.
On top of that modern 125 and upcoming 130mm guns are more than enough for modern armor if you have modern projectiles. So 152mm guns on tanks can become a reality when and if modern armor systems become strong enough, but then one has to consider wether it would just be smarter to invest more in Rocket projectiles and not make bigger guns. As the former might be cheaper and more reliable. That we will only see as the future gets closer.

VT-4, AK-1, T90 or any modern tank can also be equipped with bigger guns when and if it is needed, as all modern MBTs were designed with modularity in mind. That’s why the German Leo and British Challengers are looking into 130mm guns despite being old designs. It won’t be anymore difficult than it will be to put them on a T-14. As in both cases a new turret, new auto-loader and many similar new sub-systems would be required to deal with the recoil and accuracy. The only difference is that Russia may already be trying to develop such a gun.
Thanks for such a detailed reply.... I always get to learn new things about tanks from you......:-):-)
 

The Maverick

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The largest tank guns at the moment are 120 and 125mm, the difference is then in calibers, For example Leo 2A7 has a 120mm 55 calibre gun, Al-Khalid has a 125mm 48 calibre gun, while the former is 120mm it’s longer in calibres, latter is 125mm but shorter in calibers.
152mm gun on a tank is unnecessary for now. We won’t be seeing those on tanks anywhere in the near future, not even by 2030 imo. It is entirely possible, but not logical. The most we will see is 130-135mm guns like the Germans are offering for Leo 2.

A 152mm gun would massively increase the size of the turret because of the breech, and T-14 is already rather massive. Not to mention the recoil and it’s effect on the tanks systems and it’s accuracy, weight, the much bigger ammo (means low ammo capacity), changes to the auto-loader. On the other hand it would massively increase penetration and range, so it will take time to develop a gun that can balance all these, It would need a lot of changes from the ground up. It is highly unlikely T-14 with a 152mm gun will go past test stage before 2030.
On top of that modern 125 and upcoming 130mm guns are more than enough for modern armor if you have modern projectiles. So 152mm guns on tanks can become a reality when and if modern armor systems become strong enough, but then one has to consider wether it would just be smarter to invest more in Rocket projectiles and not make bigger guns. As the former might be cheaper and more reliable. That we will only see as the future gets closer.

VT-4, AK-1, T90 or any modern tank can also be equipped with bigger guns when and if it is needed, as all modern MBTs were designed with modularity in mind. That’s why the German Leo and British Challengers are looking into 130mm guns despite being old designs. It won’t be anymore difficult than it will be to put them on a T-14. As in both cases a new turret, new auto-loader and many similar new sub-systems would be required to deal with the recoil and accuracy. The only difference is that Russia may already be trying to develop such a gun.

those,number a look out of date
T90 in summer 2021 are higher as all 2164 t90 will be delivered by 2025

the Armata will be replacing the 1000 odd t72,from 2027 onwards the,order is expected to be 1200 to max 1700

I suspect induan army future tanks to be
T14 Armata, production license build by 2028
T90 ms and s,2164 all delivered by 2025
Arjun mark 1 and 1a 248 by 2023..

the 1000 upgraded t72 Wil.scrapped or in storage
 

iLION12345_1

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those,number a look out of date
T90 in summer 2021 are higher as all 2164 t90 will be delivered by 2025

the Armata will be replacing the 1000 odd t72,from 2027 onwards the,order is expected to be 1200 to max 1700

I suspect induan army future tanks to be
T14 Armata, production license build by 2028
T90 ms and s,2164 all delivered by 2025
Arjun mark 1 and 1a 248 by 2023..

the 1000 upgraded t72 Wil.scrapped or in storage
Not out of date, india has only received 1193 T90S so far with an order for 464 more, the production of which is yet to start. It’s unlikely these 464 will be delivered by 2025 considering previous delivery rates, more realistic is 2028 (Indian Govt has already mentioned T90S will be produced till 2028 so I assume that’s what they mean.)
There have never been enough orders to equal 2164 T90S. India has never operated or received any T90MS tanks, Only T90S. Indian news media falsely labels their locally assembled T90S variants as MS variants, even though they’re identical to the Russian imported S variants.

India has not ordered any Armata yet so you can’t really just assume india will get them, even if they seem to be the likely option. The Indian govts document itself says induction for these tanks will start in 2030, so we won’t be seeing them before that. There’s a chance some other tank will be procured instead of T-14, considering India’s shifting alliances, if India allies itself too strongly with the USA, by 2030 they will not be happy with India buying T-14, I’m sure by then the west will have some good options too.

India cannot fully locally manufacture T-14, Russia will not give production license, at most some parts will be made in India, some ordered from Russia and then assembled in India, as is being done with the Indian T90S. Which is not that big of an issue, if India is getting T-14s then this might be a sacrifice worth making to replace their T72s.

And with this…the Arjun project is likely dead, past the 100 or so MK-1As on order, kinda sad, I still believe india could have made a good MBT on their own, or even improve on the Arjun, if they tried, it’s not like India lacks the capability.
 
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The Maverick

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Not out of date, india has only received 1193 T90S so far with an order for 464 more, the production of which is yet to start. It’s unlikely these 464 will be delivered by 2025 considering previous delivery rates, more realistic is 2028 (Indian Govt has already mentioned T90S will be produced till 2028 so I assume that’s what they mean.)
There have never been enough orders to equal 2164 T90S. India has never operated or received any T90MS tanks, Only T90S. Indian news media falsely labels their locally assembled T90S variants as MS variants, even though they’re identical to the Russian imported S variants.

India has not ordered any Armata yet so you can’t really just assume india will get them, even if they seem to be the likely option. The Indian govts document itself says induction for these tanks will start in 2030, so we won’t be seeing them before that. There’s a chance some other tank will be procured instead of T-14, considering India’s shifting alliances, if India allies itself too strongly with the USA, by 2030 they will not be happy with India buying T-14, I’m sure by then the west will have some good options too.

India cannot fully locally manufacture T-14, Russia will not give production license, at most some parts will be made in India, some ordered from Russia and then assembled in India, as is being done with the Indian T90S. Which is not that big of an issue, if India is getting T-14s then this might be a sacrifice worth making to replace their T72s.

And with this…the Arjun project is likely dead, past the 100 or so MK-1As on order, kinda sad, I still believe india could have made a good MBT on their own, or even improve on the Arjun, if they tried, it’s not like India lacks the capability.

The initial T90 orders, are for 1650
The T90 second order is,for 464
well documentated
The Ficv programme is for replacing T72
Armata,is lead contender but you are correct
israeli merkava
South Korean black panther
even usa,Abraham's

are under consideration
But it looks like Armata will win it on cost grounds and Russian desperation to keep indian market by offering license production

 

jk007

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And with this…the Arjun project is likely dead, past the 100 or so MK-1As on order, kinda sad, I still believe india could have made a good MBT on their own, or even improve on the Arjun, if they tried, it’s not like India lacks the capability.
Indian public sector (some of them) are notoriously inefficient. Reforming them is not easy as they have huge lobbies....however, private players are extremely efficient.

Please tell us if pak defence public sector units are efficient? Innovative?
 

batmannow

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According to a Request for Information (RFI) published by the Indian MoD (Ministry of Defense) on June 1, 2021, India would like to procure 1,700 Future Ready Combat Vehicles (FRCVs) that would replace the old Russian designed T-72M/M1 Ajeya MBTs (Main Battle Tanks).
Follow Army Recognition on Google News at this link

Army Recognition Global Defense and Security news

Improved version of T-72M1 Ajeya main battle tank. (Picture source India MoD)

According to the technical requirements published by the Indian MoD (Ministry of Defense), the Future Ready Combat Vehicle (FRCV) must have the capabilities to operate in a wide range of terrains in road and off-road conditions such as high altitude areas, plains as well as deserts.

The main armament of the FRCV will be able to destroy different types of land targets including MBTs (Main Battle Tanks), armored vehicles, unmanned aerial vehicles, and helicopters. The new vehicle must be fitted with a remotely operated weapon station and anti-aircraft combat equipment to counter UAVs (Unmanned Aerial Vehicles).

Standard onboard equipment of the FRCV must include new modern technologies as artificial intelligence, stealth features and can operate in a network-centric and electronic warfare environment.

According to Indian military sources, the FRCV will replace the T-72M1 Ajeya MBTs, but T-90S and Arjun MBTs will remain in service.

According to the military balance 2020, the Indian army operates around 3,565 MBTs including 122 Arjun, 2,418 T-72M/M1 Ajeya, 1,025 T-90S, and 1,100 tanks of various models in store.

The T-72M1 Ajeya is a Soviet-made upgraded version of T-72 MBT produced under license in India since 1978. The tank is an export variant of the Russian T-72 which is armed with one 125 mm 2A46M cannon using a carousel automatic loading system with 24 rounds ready to fire.

As well as firing standard 125 mm ammunition such as Armor-Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot - Tracer (APFSDS-T) and high-explosive fragmentation, it can also fire a laser-guided High Explosive Anti-Tank (HEAT) missile at a maximum range of 5,000 m. The latest version of the missile has a tandem HEAT warhead to defeat targets with explosive reactive armor.

India plans to procure 1,700 Future Ready Combat Vehicles to replace T-72M Ajeya tanks | Defense News June 2021 Global Security army industry | Defense Security global news industry army year 2021 | Archive News year (armyrecognition.com)
Dear Indians get them fast dont just keep planing !
As PLA is just sitting on your heads and they can smash you like poor potato's anytime they have Thier orders!
 

vishwambhar

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The initial T90 orders, are for 1650
The T90 second order is,for 464
well documentated
The Ficv programme is for replacing T72
Armata,is lead contender but you are correct
israeli merkava
South Korean black panther
even usa,Abraham's

are under consideration
But it looks like Armata will win it on cost grounds and Russian desperation to keep indian market by offering license production

What will be US reaction if we order Armata in your opinion? we have already offended US by not listening them over S400.... can we afford to offend them further? I really hope we get Armata.... design is very futuristic compared to other tanks in the service today....
 

CONNAN

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Neither the Indian Army nor MoD have publicly confirmed that the T-14 MBT is in the intrest. Assuming the T-14 works as claimed by the Russians, the Indian Army will first need to modernize its military throughout the three services to fully incorporate C4ISR in all its divisions. the Armata system, not just the T-14 itself but everything accompanying the T-14, need to be integrated. Otherwise, the full potential of the Armata T-14 will not be utilised and the Money spent on it will not see its full return on investment

PS : We still need TOT hMMM so much for atmanirbhar bharat abhiyan 🙈
 

iLION12345_1

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The initial T90 orders, are for 1650
The T90 second order is,for 464
well documentated
The Ficv programme is for replacing T72
Armata,is lead contender but you are correct
israeli merkava
South Korean black panther
even usa,Abraham's

are under consideration
But it looks like Armata will win it on cost grounds and Russian desperation to keep indian market by offering license production

There is no second order, 1193+464 = nearly 1650. That’s all of them. This is directly from the Indian army. the other order of 400+ was just a rumor, debunked long ago.
1193 in service, 464 on order.
Neither the Indian Army nor MoD have publicly confirmed that the T-14 MBT is in the intrest. Assuming the T-14 works as claimed by the Russians, the Indian Army will first need to modernize its military throughout the three services to fully incorporate C4ISR in all its divisions. the Armata system, not just the T-14 itself but everything accompanying the T-14, need to be integrated. Otherwise, the full potential of the Armata T-14 will not be utilised and the Money spent on it will not see its full return on investment

PS : We still need TOT hMMM so much for atmanirbhar bharat abhiyan 🙈
Full ToT is sadly unlikely with any Russian tank, they don’t even give full ToT for T90S, a tank from 2003, let alone T-14, but even with partial ToT T-14 would be a good purchase for the Indian army, granted they do all the upgrades you said, plus all the logistical upgrades this would need. That’s why a local tank would have been good…
What will be US reaction if we order Armata in your opinion? we have already offended US by not listening them over S400.... can we afford to offend them further? I really hope we get Armata.... design is very futuristic compared to other tanks in the service today....
it depends on just how close India gets to the USA, and it seems they will get pretty close due to the China factor. With S400 US only threatened sanctions but didn’t do much because they knew india wasn’t fully dependent on them right now, but it certainly has made them a little mad. If India’s currently trajectory of buying weapons from the US continues, then either they will have to stop buying Russian, or stay close to Russia and stop buying American, very few countries have ever been able to buy freely from both, and then it’s just a logistical nightmare.
That being said, western countries are working on new tank designs too, maybe by 2030 there will be a western optional available…but we can’t really know how good it will be, Wether it will fit Indian logistics, terrain and requirements, so on.
T-14 is a pretty good platform for India if it can work out the few issues in my aforementioned post and is willing to deal with partial ToT. If it works as Russia says, then it’s an awesome machine.
 
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iLION12345_1

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Indian public sector (some of them) are notoriously inefficient. Reforming them is not easy as they have huge lobbies....however, private players are extremely efficient.

Please tell us if pak defence public sector units are efficient? Innovative?
Pakistani public and government owned defense sector is Efficient yes, but innovative, not yet, they haven’t had the kind of funding Indian ones have had in the past due to the war on terror, they’ve made what was needed by the armed forces but nothing innovative. Since the War on terror is over now, they’re starting to get funding and the future looks good for them. Whatever they have made so far has been pretty decent.

The issue with Pakistan has really been in the private sector, there Was little to no private sector involvement until the 2000s started, now there’s a few good companies, but a lot less than it should be, it will take Pakistani private sector quite some time before it becomes what it needs to be, but at least there’s improvement.

The way I see Indian defense sector is…lots of money, lots of potential, lots of expertise and lots of corruption, mainly due to the politicization and lobbying in the defense sector. If that can be fixed, india can become a major arms producer with its resources.
 

jk007

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Pakistani public and government owned defense sector is Efficient yes, but innovative, not yet, they haven’t had the kind of funding Indian ones have had in the past due to the war on terror, they’ve made what was needed by the armed forces but nothing innovative. Since the War on terror is over now, they’re starting to get funding and the future looks good for them. Whatever they have made so far has been pretty decent.

The issue with Pakistan has really been in the private sector, there Was little to no private sector involvement until the 2000s started, now there’s a few good companies, but a lot less than it should be, it will take Pakistani private sector quite some time before it becomes what it needs to be, but at least there’s improvement.

The way I see Indian defense sector is…lots of money, lots of potential, lots of expertise and lots of corruption, mainly due to the politicization and lobbying in the defense sector. If that can be fixed, india can become a major arms producer with its resources.
Lots of corruption only in public sector....however that is also slowly changing....

Modi govt is making lot of policy changes to defence industry / production, and making them efficient.
 

jk007

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Lots of corruption only in public sector....however that is also slowly changing....

Modi govt is making lot of policy changes to defence industry / production, and making them efficient.
Since you have lots of knowledge about tanks and possibly tank warfare. Please answer this question:
a) Owing to profileration of anti-tank missiles, particularly shoulder fired etc. Are tanks still really relevant?
b) In ladakh (with flat lands and possible no camouflage), will light tanks be of any use? particularly, the other side can get 1000s of anti-tank missiles and be done with the enemy tanks?
c) Is tank warfare still relevant between strong armies (with lots of helicopters; aircraft; anti-tank missiles etc) like India, Pak, China??
 

iLION12345_1

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Since you have lots of knowledge about tanks and possibly tank warfare. Please answer this question:
a) Owing to profileration of anti-tank missiles, particularly shoulder fired etc. Are tanks still really relevant?
b) In ladakh (with flat lands and possible no camouflage), will light tanks be of any use? particularly, the other side can get 1000s of anti-tank missiles and be done with the enemy tanks?
c) Is tank warfare still relevant between strong armies (with lots of helicopters; aircraft; anti-tank missiles etc) like India, Pak, China??
A) Thats a rather important point, often people like to compare tanks to other tanks, while the most common threat to any tank in a conventional war is ATGMs and other portable rocket launchers like RPGs. an RPG can easily mission kill a tank, even if it doesn’t penetrate the armor, if it damages the gun, breaks off a track, damages the optics or something of the sorts, your tank is basically useless. ATGMs are a step above, a direct hit with one, even a non-penetrating one (which are less common than penetrating ones) usually means the loss of a tank as the crew will most certainly want to get out of there.
But then there are a few counters to this:

First is that tanks don’t work alone, a conventional war is a combined arms war, tanks are covered by infantry and air support, infantry is covered by tanks and air support, air support is covered by infantry and other aircraft, all the different elements help each other. In this case it becomes the job of the infantry and air support to help keep the tank safe from ATGMs and other infantry threats, so this reduces the chance of a tank being hit by such a weapon.

Second is the induction of Active protection systems, like the Trophy on Merkava, abrams and Leo. Afganit on Russian tanks, GL-5 on VT-4 and the laser system on Type 99. These systems can largely negate the effects of any incoming missile by shooting them down before they hit the tank, with the really good ones even being able to defeat top-attack missiles. All of the newer tanks are starting to get these systems and countries are investing more into them.

So in that sense, tanks are definitely still relevant, as long as the countries combined arms strategy works well, because nothing else can do ground pushes as well as a tank even to this day. APCs and infantry just don’t have that kind of protection and firepower.

B) The same logic of combined warfare will help in Ladakh, light tanks will be useful in the region for armored pushes to take the other sides land, as long as the rest of the arms can cover them. Such pushes are unlikely unless an all out war starts though, and to some extent T90 and Type 96 and 99 can be used in these altitudes too. We did see them deployed in the recent Ladakh conflict. One side could completely wipe out an armored push with just ATGMs and air cover, but then it would not have any armor to counter attack with. India currently does not use an active protection system on any of its tanks, China only has them on their Type 99 and 99A tanks (as well as VT-4s, but those are export only.)

C) A similar answer for this one too, combined warfare can make tanks work, especially in the Pakistan-India Theatre where there are large amounts of plain lands and barren deserts which can only be pushed with armored formations. Both countries will be trying to take each other’s land and only tanks can do that. Yes, with all the Missiles, helicopters, aircraft etc tanks have more threats to deal with than ever before, tanks will be less useful in defensive roles, but for offense, with the correct kind of synergy with the rest of the forces, tanks will stay relevant for a long time to come.

Infantry takes out missiles and SAMs, Air support takes out artillery and bunkers, and then tanks can take out other tanks and enemy infantry. India and Pakistan have extensively trained in combined arms warfare since the 90s.

Another thing to note is UAVs, while they have proved very useful in conflicts like Azerbaijan-Armenia and Turkey in Syria, all of these cases are very one sided affairs where one country has complete air superiority to use its drones. UCAVs will not be much useful against tanks in a Pakistan-India-China theatre where they will easily be taken down by aircraft and SAMs. Hence attack helicopters are still relevant.
 

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