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India May Acquire T 14 Armata Ahead of Dec 6 Putin Visit to Counter imbalance in Tank warfare against pakistan

SQ8

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We are also investing heavily on all next gen armoured vehicle plateform, including a two men crew MBT, so no, tanks are not obeselte.
@SQ8
Tanks and APCs are here to stay for the subcontinent battlefield primarily because the key “deciding battles” will be focused on open plains or relatively open environments where mechanized forced shine. By the time it looks like India has captured a critical city or urban area it will likely be TNW lines crossed anyway.
The exception being the less friendly terrain moving across the LoC and further north.
For India the terrain towards Aksai Chin - Ladakh area is plateau(ed) enough to where light armor and fast mechanized units could make a big impact regardless of UCAVs and other assets at play as severe weather could be used as cover for such offensives.

India Achilles heel is its (recent)historical poor integration, onboarding and execution with new systems along with fairly misplaced and mismanaged priorities in public-private sector defense projects. As an e.g. it was a priority to have HCL install a fairly expensive telepresence system at major IAFS but not focus on the secure comm network between them.
The same can be expected for all projects including the now finally operational Milan systems and the eventual Naga and other systems.
Any induction of the Armata isn’t seeing operational deployment (flying 4 Apaches or Chinooks at the LAC unarmed or with just RPs isn’t operational) for at another 5 years and another 10 to really have a doctrine built around them.
 

Khan vilatey

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There is news that indian Army Delegation was inRussia for Procurement of T 14 Armata to counter growing technological edge of pak VT 4 tanks along with T 80 upgrade and AK 3

india has good know how of russian tanks infastructre already in place

Current western tankams do not match indian requirments due to weather and terrain of india

Definately armata will be next tank for india already shown interest

If western tanks were not good for the Indian environment then why did they build the 50 ton Arjun ????
K
 

Huffal

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T90 have upgraded a long ago... Not base line models... Including western components. ... Even T90m version
FCS maybe, but the armour is still the same, as well as firepower being the same. A good solid tank, that is limited by the indian mind. Wow
 

PoondolotoPandalum

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Are T-14's enough to change the overall forces balance equation in the region with Pakistan and China? Not really. Will it be the best tank in the entire subcontinent (or the whole continent for that matter), most likely yes. But it doesn't sway the power balance in favor of India, not on its own. If they even end up fielding it, which isn't even certain yet.

Personally, I see it as an attempt at a symmetrical forces Ballance response to the Chinese. It'll look good on paper, but that's all that'll achieve. The problem is, China won't respond in a symmetrical (tank vs tank) way, in the event of a real war. China has vastly more intelligence-gathering capacity than India, particularly space-born assets. China is also incredibly strong (arguably a world authority) on AI, machine learning, and so on. Not least because it has a lot of military significance, in the era of unmanned, autonomous, and intelligence assets. So China has the luxury of dictating the terms of engagement. It'll choose an approach to minimize casualties and cost. The only time they'll fight on symmetrical terms is through the sort of fistfights you see on Ladakh. Which China came out on top btw :) Or international competition like tank biathlons. Chinese (who used their own tanks) came 2nd place most of the time, after Russia (host). Indian's..... Let's just say after coming last in 2017, they've stopped competing.

Also unlike India, China also designs and develops its own equipment based on its own specific technical requirements and national interests. India just buys off-the-shelf equipment and shoehorns it to fit their particular tactical and strategic needs. Doesn't always work. Just like how their fancy Bofor field guns completely failed in Kargil. Pakistani artillery wasn't better either. One valuable lesson that conflict showed is how one can't use SEA LEVEL-based plotting calculations, at the sort of altitudes and atmospheric conditions in the Khagil theatre that took place. You can't even use the same hardware even. Chinese learned this from analyzing the conflict, and have developed purpose-built equipment accordingly. The VT-5/Type-15 is another example of equipment specifically designed for high-altitude mountainous warfare. It will alloy PLA to deploy armor to areas Indian's cannot. It's a similar thing with the Spice bombs in balakot. Works very well in the middle east, evidently didn't work well in very undulating terrain that can mess up navigation and guidance systems.

Other than bragging about having the best tank in the region, I don't see it shifting the balance that much. Leaving that aside, it's a very capable tank. If Pakistanis had it, they'd be bragging about it, as they did with VT-4s, or T-80UD (arguably most capable tank in the subcontinent for its time) acquisition before that.

As for the premise of tanks being absolute (just bc your enemy can afford fancy tanks), most armies don't think so. The T-14 produced a very symmetrical response in the west for new or upgraded MBTs. Airpower and drones alone aren't enough to win wars by themselves either. If that was the case, the coalition wouldn't have been lost Afghanistan. The one-sided coalition military victory in both gulf wars wasn't achieved by air power alone. They deployed a heck of a lot of tanks and ground assets. The fact is, airpower cannot control and hold territory on its own, for a meaningful amount of time. Men on the ground do. Support by armor, airpower, air defense units, intelligence, drones, etc etc. Everything has its place on the chessboard.
 

Pandora

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Russian as Usual market their stuff as if its from another plannet. We have seen how their air defense systems, Tanks and IFV were picked off by opponents. T14 is being advertised as something revolutionary but as a matter of fact it has not been in combat yet. Even T90s were superior until they were not anymore.
 

SuvarnaTeja

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Russian as Usual market their stuff as if its from another plannet. We have seen how their air defense systems, Tanks and IFV were picked off by opponents. T14 is being advertised as something revolutionary but as a matter of fact it has not been in combat yet. Even T90s were superior until they were not anymore.

Yes. Russians and Europeans make mediocre products and market them as cutting edge. Only the US and China make quality and cutting products.
 

Akh1112

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lol the russians cant produce it, what makes you think india will have the chance to buy it. Lets say a contract was signed, this is how i expecvt it to go;

1- lots of chest thumping, we will buy hundreds!
2- costs start to overrun and timelines get iffy
3- india decides to scale back orders
4- russia asks india to up its order count again as they need the money badly
5- india refuses, asks for more perks, i.e ToT
6- the russians refuse, they want more money
7- India pulls out
8- buys sub par local alternative

where have i seen this before
 

Pandora

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Yes. Russians and Europeans make mediocre products and market them as cutting edge. Only the US and China make quality and cutting products.

I never said China makes something special but saying that T14 is some sort of miracke tank as portrayed by Indians and Russians is pretty stupid. Any tank in world cant be brought down with modern anti tank missiles. As for American Abrahams they are far superior to any tank in term of protection which is a fact. I am talking about abrahams in service of US not other countries.
 

SuvarnaTeja

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Are T-14's enough to change the overall forces balance equation in the region with Pakistan and China? Not really. Will it be the best tank in the entire subcontinent (or the whole continent for that matter), most likely yes. But it doesn't sway the power balance in favor of India, not on its own. If they even end up fielding it, which isn't even certain yet.

Indians cannot think out of the box and stick to obsolete strategies from the 2nd world war era. T-14 in Indian hands will not change balance of power against Pakistan or China.
lol the russians cant produce it, what makes you think india will have the chance to buy it. Lets say a contract was signed, this is how i expecvt it to go;

1- lots of chest thumping, we will buy hundreds!
2- costs start to overrun and timelines get iffy
3- india decides to scale back orders
4- russia asks india to up its order count again as they need the money badly
5- india refuses, asks for more perks, i.e ToT
6- the russians refuse, they want more money
7- India pulls out
8- buys sub par local alternative

where have i seen this before

Sadly what you say is very true. Unfortunately Indians have desire but do not have money to buy.
I never said China makes something special but saying that T14 is some sort of miracke tank as portrayed by Indians and Russians is pretty stupid. Any tank in world cant be brought down with modern anti tank missiles. As for American Abrahams they are far superior to any tank in term of protection which is a fact. I am talking about abrahams in service of US not other countries.

Chinese products are superior to the Russians as Chinese have superior industrial base and technology. For erxample compare J-20 with SU-57. China has Hypersonic glide/cruise missile while Russia does not.
Any tank in world cant be brought down with modern anti tank missiles. As for American Abrahams they are far superior to any tank in term of protection which is a fact. I am talking about abrahams in service of US not other countries.

Yes. Tanks are obsolete. Unfortunately Indians are stuck with 20th century's outdated strategies.
 
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Pandora

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Indians cannot think out of the box and stick to obsolete strategies from the 2nd world war era. T-14 in Indian hands will not change balance of power against Pakistan or China.


Sadly what you say is very true. Unfortunately Indians have desire but do not have money to buy.


Chinese products are superior to the Russians as Chinese have superior industrial base and technology. For erxample compare J-20 with SU-57. China has Hypersonic glide/cruise missile while Russia does not.


Yes. Tanks are obsolete. Unfortunately Indians are stuck with 20th century's outdated strategies.

In terms of India Pak scenario Tanks are not obsolete hcz 1-we have a shared border 2- Tanks are effective bcz terrain is favourable for deployment of Tanks. We have deserts, forests, mountains providing ample opportunity for tank deployment. Countries who are decommissioning tanks are mostly those who have no border threats or simply are island states. UK for example has reduced its army but increased it naval presence. Its all about requirements of a country.
 

SuvarnaTeja

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In terms of India Pak scenario Tanks are not obsolete hcz 1-we have a shared border 2- Tanks are effective bcz terrain is favourable for deployment of Tanks. We have deserts, forests, mountains providing ample opportunity for tank deployment. Countries who are decommissioning tanks are mostly those who have no border threats or simply are island states. UK for example has reduced its army but increased it naval presence. Its all about requirements of a country.

Even Indo-Pak scenario, you cannot deploy tanks in mountains of Kashmir on LOC. In plains whereTanks can be deployed, they are easy targets as the visibility is very high in the deserts and plains. Hence tanks are totally useless.
 

Pandora

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Even Indo-Pak scenario, you cannot deploy tanks in mountains of Kashmir on LOC. In plains whereTanks can be deployed, they are easy targets as the visibility is very high in the deserts and plains. Hence tanks are totally useless.

Well true they are becoming less useful but saying they are useless is a bit presumptuous. Tanks still are best to punch through enemy armour and to capture enemy positions. You clearly have no idea about Pak India terrains otherwise you wouldnt be making such claims. You should refer to people who have field experience with tanks. Your claims are not credible by a long shot.

Pakistan has deployed tanks on moutains in Afghan Pakistan border.
 
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SuvarnaTeja

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Well true they are becoming less useful but saying they are useless is a bit presumptuous. Tanks still are best to punch through enemy armour and to capture enemy positions. You clearly have no idea about Pak India terrains otherwise you wouldnt be making such claims. You should refer to people who have field experience with tanks. Your claims are not credible by a long shot.

Yes Tanks are only useful to transport soldiers after you have won the battle and have destroyed the enemy positions but that could be done by MRAPs. You do not need Tanks.
 

Pandora

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Yes Tanks are only useful to transport soldiers after you have won the battle and have destroyed the enemy positions but that could be done by MRAPs. You do not need Tanks.

You couldnt be more wrong. An IFV or MARP can never destroy fortified positions. Like i said refer to someone with knowledge of Tank warfare in Indo Pak scenario.
Difference is
This against
C7EE9C3E-E190-4F5B-A21D-268F43920358.jpeg

This
F4EB9F28-7196-4251-AD8F-DE3E783BEC49.jpeg


Obviously firepower is just one factor. An expert can explain you better
 

SuvarnaTeja

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You couldnt be more wrong. An IFV or MARP can never destroy fortified positions. Like i said refer to someone with knowledge of Tank warfare in Indo Pak scenario.
Difference is
This against
View attachment 797953
This View attachment 797954

Obviously firepower is just one factor. An expert can explain you better

Fortified positions will be destroyed by the UAVs and Bombers using Smart bombs. You do not need to take the risk of using Tanks.
 

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