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India Army has over 1193 T-90 tanks. Another 464 by March 2025

That Guy

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British army after seeing the nagorno karabah war has decided to get rid of its tanks and focus on drone. Pakistan should also not buy any more tanks and invest in drones and loitering munitions. That's the way forward. Cheap effective and easy to make
Armenia had no air force to counter azerbaijan's drones.

The UK is an island, it doesn't really need tanks. When it primarily goes to war, it goes to war in foreign nations, and in a limited capacity against insurgents. Tanks have only very limited use for the UK.

Against India, Pakistan will need heavy tanks. Drones are all fine and dandy, and they'll come in use, but India will be able to shoot them down easily with their air force and air defense systems. Samething with Pakistan, where Pakistan will easily be able to shoot down Indian drones.

In order to ensure effective use of drones, you need air superiority, or at least enough stealth to ensure the drones survivability. In an India-Pakistan conflict, neither side can guarantee either of these things.

The Nagorno-Karabakh conflict did demonstrate just how lethal drones will be, but context of the various battles is very important.
 

iLION12345_1

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You cannot argue against the guy constructively so you are literally begging to be helped out?


Same way a Leopard 2A+7 is different from a Leopard 2.....
It’s okay brother, not everyone has the time to learn about such things, I respect their side of the argument too, they have been respectful and are genuinely Curios, it is good to return that
If mango rounds on T72/90 can't penitrate AK even without ERA then why would India use it on tanks??

In all India Pakistan wars tanks have always been a dominating platforms then how can they buy such useless rounds which cannot penitrate AK even without ERA but AK can penitrate Indian tanks at will???

Apart from this AL Zarrar if I am not mistaken is an upgrade of very old tank T59 / T69 or T62.... How can it be more powerful than upgraded T72 and latest T90??

Also if possible can you brief on what is CITV and APS system on VT4....
CITV means commander’s independent thermal Veiwer. It means not only tank gunner but commander has his own thermal imagine sights, this is a major upgrade as in a tank the commander is the one who spots targets and Thermal sights make it much much easier to spot targets. In most tanks commander has to spot these targets by using gunners thermals, which can be an issue since gunner needs them to aim as well. VT4 is the only in the sub continent to have this currently, which means it has the highest first-shot probability of any tank here. Arjun MK1A is supposed to have such a system when it enters service, which is very commendable too, that’s why I said MK1A is technologically very decent, but it has poor armor, mobility and firepower.

APS is active protection system, it’s the system that shoots down incoming projectiles before they hit the tank, currently VT4 is the only one in the sub continent with such a system. Plus the one on VT4 is a hard-kill APS (hard kill means it physically shoots projectiles at incoming projectiles to shoot them down) which are generally better than Soft kill systems (which try to confuse the enemy tank with electronic systems to project the tank). India is developing its own APS for T90 and Arjun, but it will still take a significant amount of years for it to be operational.


To answer the second part of your post; I believe india initially purchased Mango rounds as an interim measure, As the current ammo it had was even older and it has not been able to make it’s own APFSDS. But it seems the local APFSDS project is still far off and India has bought more Mango to make up for it. It is still an upgrade from what is being used before it, but not enough of one. I question why india did not buy newer Russian Svinets series of shells, as these are some of the best in the world. I hope it was not incompetency on Your MoDs part.

Lastly, I did not say Al-Zarrar is superior to T90. T90 has much much higher protection than Al-Zarrar and much better mobility, it also likely has better technology. Even with next gen ERA and base armor upgrades, Al-Zarrar is a small tank, Russian armor is of very high quality. Where AZ will have the edge is firepower, since it has much better ammunition, this isn’t a fault with the T90S, since it is able to fire better ammunition, I’m genuinely puzzled why india bought such old ammunition. Al-Zarrar also has the same gunner thermals as T90S, but T90S has better commanders sights and sensors. Mango rounds can probably penetrate AZ anywhere on the hull and turret, while AZ can likely only penetrate T90S on hull if it gets to fire first (which in this case T90S will have the advantage). Older rounds might still have issue penetrating AZ.
Compared to T72, Al-Zarrar is closer, Indian modernized T72 again has better mobility and technology, similar thermals and in this case, maybe even better ERA, since Az is a small tank where ERA cannot be used to its full advantage. However only half the Indian T72 fleet is modernized, that half is superior to AZ and closer to Pakistani Type 85 modernized tanks. But in this Case AZ again has the advantage in firepower, simply due to better ammo. Both these tanks can likely penetrate each other anywhere on turret and hull. (I do not know wether non-modernized Indian T72s can fire mango, as their FCS might not allow it)

when it comes to protection, apart from VT4 I believe T90S still has the some of the best protection in the sub continent, its armor is likely better or at least comparable to AK/AK-1 on most surfaces, especially the turret, due to its much higher ERA coverage, Al-Khalid has better ERA but it doesn’t cover much on the turret, on the hull I would say AK has better protection since the ERA covers more. Indian T90S has some ERA coverage even on the hull sides, so that part is better protected than AK, as AK only has armored side skirts and not ERA on hull side.
VT4 not only has very advanced base armor, ERA and high coverage but APS means nothing will hit it in the first place, granted Pakistan does not have APS in service just yet on its VT4s but China does sell APS with it that Pakistan has tested and will likely buy it soon.

The part where I mention that Indian T90S cannot penetrate an AK is solely down to the old ammo used, (without ERA this would only apply to the turret, Hull is vulnerable, with ERA both will be protected, but tanks still have spots that are uncovered with ERA like lower plates, however in actual tank combat, nobody aims for weak spots, only for center mass) if india gets better ammo for its T90S this will quickly change, as T90 can fire all modern ammo. AK and AZ (not AK-1) have reached their limit in regards to ammo, unless upgraded further , since they cannot fire any longer ammo, but what they have already is very good.
AK can penetrate T90S on the hull, likely even with ERA, but not on the turret, as the armor and ERA coverage there is high. Again this comes down to the older ERA used on T90, something that can be upgraded. As Indian modernize T72 and T90 use same ammo this applies to both (but T72 has inferior protection). Similarly since all Pakistani tanks use the same ammo this applies to all of them.
(But AZ and type 85 have inferior protection)
You can see the issue here is not Indian tanks, but their upgradeable parts like ammo and ERA. Both of which india is working to upgrade, (which is the good news on your side as these upgrades are not difficult), but is somehow significantly behind the curve as compared to Pakistan. Pakistani AZs and Type-85s despite being modernizations of older tanks due to having modern ammo and ERA are still relevant, while india has a much bigger number of modern tanks (T90 and modernized T72) when compared to Pakistan, they have not been given proper ammo and ERA. Which is the balancing factor here.
Keep in mind that while numbers are in Indian favor (Pakistan has about 1000 3rd Gen tanks, adding about a hundred a year to that with its VT4 and AK1 orders, with about 1000 modernized older types, and a few hundred obsolete Type 69/59. While india has 1200 T90 plus these new orders of T90 and Arjun MK1A as 3rd Gen, (Arjun is 3rd Gen in tech but its firepower is poor due to its gun) along with 1000 modernized T72s and a further 700ish near-obsolete T72s) geography and the China factor would mean this advantage is not as big as on paper. But advantage is still advantage.
 
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Signalian

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British army after seeing the nagorno karabah war has decided to get rid of its tanks and focus on drone.
You are looking at one side of the picture.

How many tank Vs tank duels occurred in this conflict ? I haven't researched much except hearing that UCAVs chewed up armored vehicles. Been saying on this forum for long that tanks will be taken out by Anti-Tank (guided) systems. This is why HATs or LATs (since 1960s) exist in Pakistan Army apart from gunships and UAVs in both Indo-Pak armies. But this obsession of tank facing tank from WW2 and then first gulf war is never ending. This whole thread is becoming a tank Vs tank thread.

If somebody thinks that the purpose of a tank is to fight and engage enemy tanks, then they need to revisit different mediums of knowledge.
 

vishwambhar

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It’s okay brother, not everyone has the time to learn about such things, I respect their side of the argument too, they have been respectful and are genuinely Curios, it is good to return that


CITV means commander’s independent thermal Veiwer. It means not only tank gunner but commander has his own thermal imagine sights, this is a major upgrade as in a tank the commander is the one who spots targets and Thermal sights make it much much easier to spot targets. In most tanks commander has to spot these targets by using gunners thermals, which can be an issue since gunner needs them to aim as well. VT4 is the only in the sub continent to have this currently, which means it has the highest first-shot probability of any tank here. Arjun MK1A is supposed to have such a system when it enters service, which is very commendable too, that’s why I said MK1A is technologically very decent, but it has poor armor, mobility and firepower.

APS is active protection system, it’s the system that shoots down incoming projectiles before they hit the tank, currently VT4 is the only one in the sub continent with such a system. Plus the one on VT4 is a hard-kill APS (hard kill means it physically shoots projectiles at incoming projectiles to shoot them down) which are generally better than Soft kill systems (which try to confuse the enemy tank with electronic systems to project the tank). India is developing its own APS for T90 and Arjun, but it will still take a significant amount of years for it to be operational.


To answer the second part of your post; I believe india initially purchased Mango rounds as an interim measure, As the current ammo it had was even older and it has not been able to make it’s own APFSDS. But it seems the local APFSDS project is still far off and India has bought more Mango to make up for it. It is still an upgrade from what is being used before it, but not enough of one. I question why india did not buy newer Russian Svinets series of shells, as these are some of the best in the world. I hope it was not incompetency on Your MoDs part.

Lastly, I did not say Al-Zarrar is superior to T90. T90 has much much higher protection than Al-Zarrar and much better mobility, it also likely has better technology. Even with next gen ERA and base armor upgrades, Al-Zarrar is a small tank, Russian armor is of very high quality. Where AZ will have the edge is firepower, since it has much better ammunition, this isn’t a fault with the T90S, since it is able to fire better ammunition, I’m genuinely puzzled why india bought such old ammunition. Al-Zarrar also has the same gunner thermals as T90S, but T90S has better commanders sights and sensors. Mango rounds can probably penetrate AZ anywhere on the hull and turret, while AZ can likely only penetrate T90S on hull if it gets to fire first (which in this case T90S will have the advantage). Older rounds might still have issue penetrating AZ.
Compared to T72, Al-Zarrar is closer, Indian modernized T72 again has better mobility and technology, similar thermals and in this case, maybe even better ERA, since Az is a small tank where ERA cannot be used to its full advantage. However only half the Indian T72 fleet is modernized, that half is superior to AZ and closer to Pakistani Type 85 modernized tanks. But in this Case AZ again has the advantage in firepower, simply due to better ammo. Both these tanks can likely penetrate each other anywhere on turret and hull. (I do not know wether non-modernized Indian T72s can fire mango, as their FCS might not allow it)

when it comes to protection, apart from VT4 I believe T90S still has the some of the best protection in the sub continent, its armor is likely better or at least comparable to AK/AK-1 on most surfaces, especially the turret, due to its much higher ERA coverage, Al-Khalid has better ERA but it doesn’t cover much on the turret, on the hull I would say AK has better protection since the ERA covers more. Indian T90S has some ERA coverage even on the hull sides, so that part is better protected than AK, as AK only has armored side skirts and not ERA on hull side.
VT4 not only has very advanced base armor, ERA and high coverage but APS means nothing will hit it in the first place, granted Pakistan does not have APS in service just yet on its VT4s but China does sell APS with it that Pakistan has tested and will likely buy it soon.

The part where I mention that Indian T90S cannot penetrate an AK is solely down to the old ammo used, (without ERA this would only apply to the turret, Hull is vulnerable, with ERA both will be protected, but tanks still have spots that are uncovered with ERA like lower plates, however in actual tank combat, nobody aims for weak spots, only for center mass) if india gets better ammo for its T90S this will quickly change, as T90 can fire all modern ammo. AK and AZ (not AK-1) have reached their limit in regards to ammo, unless upgraded further , since they cannot fire any longer ammo, but what they have already is very good.
AK can penetrate T90S on the hull, likely even with ERA, but not on the turret, as the armor and ERA coverage there is high. Again this comes down to the older ERA used on T90, something that can be upgraded. As Indian modernize T72 and T90 use same ammo this applies to both (but T72 has inferior protection). Similarly since all Pakistani tanks use the same ammo this applies to all of them.
(But AZ and type 85 have inferior protection)
You can see the issue here is not Indian tanks, but their upgradeable parts like ammo and ERA. Both of which india is working to upgrade, (which is the good news on your side as these upgrades are not difficult), but is somehow significantly behind the curve as compared to Pakistan. Pakistani AZs and Type-85s despite being modernizations of older tanks due to having modern ammo and ERA are still relevant, while india has a much bigger number of modern tanks (T90 and modernized T72) when compared to Pakistan, they have not been given proper ammo and ERA. Which is the balancing factor here.
Keep in mind that while numbers are in Indian favor (Pakistan has about 1000 3rd Gen tanks, adding about a hundred a year to that with its VT4 and AK1 orders, with about 1000 modernized older types, and a few hundred obsolete Type 69/59. While india has 1200 T90 plus these new orders of T90 and Arjun MK1A as 3rd Gen, (Arjun is 3rd Gen in tech but its firepower is poor due to its gun) along with 1000 modernized T72s and a further 700ish near-obsolete T72s) geography and the China factor would mean this advantage is not as big as on paper. But advantage is still advantage.
Thanks for such great knowledgeable post.... I got to learn so many realities about Pakistani tanks and Indian tanks..... Your have a great knowledge of tanks and it's warfare......
 
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iLION12345_1

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Thanks for such great knowledgeable post.... I got to learn so many realities about Pakistani tanks and Indian tanks..... Your have a great knowledge of tanks and it's warfare......
No problem brother, at the end of the day these are machines of war, they will not fight alone, there will be other forces and factors involved too, some factors are in India’s favor, some in Pakistan’s, but let’s hope a fight never really does start, both our counties cannot afford one, we should rather be spending all this money on our people as both countries have a long way to go.
 

Smarana Mitra

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But it’s barely any better than ammunition from the 80s. So what’s the point?
Pakistan does make FCS indigenously, even beyond your false definition of indigenous. AK-1 has a Pakistani FCS. I never said Pakistan makes thermals indigenously, but has been license producing them for over 15 years. The Thermals used in Indian T90S, Pakistan has been making locally for over 10 years. I thought your definition of indigenous was license production After all? India doesn’t make any FCS either, local production of foreign designs. At least we designed our own.
India produces its own FCS. Russia refused to give the codes of FCS and hence India developed it on its own. Though India uses foreign designs, the methods to manufacture them has been indigenously mastered. In war, it does not matter who designed something but what matters is who has what equipment. In that regards, any equipment made in the country regardless of design origins is indigenous as such items can't be sanctioned or supply lines cut off.
 

Yasser76

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India produces its own FCS. Russia refused to give the codes of FCS and hence India developed it on its own. Though India uses foreign designs, the methods to manufacture them has been indigenously mastered. In war, it does not matter who designed something but what matters is who has what equipment. In that regards, any equipment made in the country regardless of design origins is indigenous as such items can't be sanctioned or supply lines cut off.
In that case all the Indians on this forum are wrong when they say JF-17 is not "indigenous" or those your stretching of this term only apply to India?
 

iLION12345_1

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India produces its own FCS. Russia refused to give the codes of FCS and hence India developed it on its own. Though India uses foreign designs, the methods to manufacture them has been indigenously mastered. In war, it does not matter who designed something but what matters is who has what equipment. In that regards, any equipment made in the country regardless of design origins is indigenous as such items can't be sanctioned or supply lines cut off.
Again, india has not designed its own FCS. Modernized T72 uses Polish FCS (SKO-1T DRAWA-T) T90 uses French-Russian ESSA FCS and Arjun MK-1 uses SAGEMs FCS. MK-1A is “supposed” to have indigenous FCS (but not indigenous thermals), much like AK-1. But that is not in service yet.
 

notorious_eagle

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British army after seeing the nagorno karabah war has decided to get rid of its tanks and focus on drone. Pakistan should also not buy any more tanks and invest in drones and loitering munitions. That's the way forward. Cheap effective and easy to make
Bad analogy

Britain is an island, there is no Tank Army that surrounds it thus it makes sense for the British Army to reduce its Tank Formations. The UK faces asymmetric threats, not a conventional one.

Pakistan on the other hand faces an existential conventional threat from Indian Tank Armies. Indian Tank Formations are well armed, trained and have an impressive logistical support network to help them punch deep into enemy territories. Nagarno Karabakh is a not a good example because neither sides possessed a modern C4I network which made it impossible for Armenia to shoot down these drones. Both India and Pakistan possess modern C4I networks, the incoming drones by either side would be immediately engaged and neutralized by the AD Forces.

To counter this very potent threat of 1200 T90's, Pakistan needs to maintain a credible number of Modern MBT's to meet the Indian Armored Formation Thrusts head one. Pakistan needs to maintain its existing policy of maintaining a credible Tank Force along with Highly Mobile Frontier Forces or what you call, Tank Destroyers to be deployed along the borders.
 

jk007

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Again, india has not designed its own FCS. Modernized T72 uses Polish FCS (SKO-1T DRAWA-T) T90 uses French-Russian ESSA FCS and Arjun MK-1 uses SAGEMs FCS. MK-1A is “supposed” to have indigenous FCS (but not indigenous thermals), much like AK-1. But that is not in service yet.
@iLION12345_1 5_1 Where did you get all this knowledge from? Are you in pak army?
 

iLION12345_1

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@iLION12345_1 5_1 Where did you get all this knowledge from? Are you in pak army?
Such information is available online, it just takes a little bit of searching to find, the contracts that countries sign or news media/press releases by military often has this information as well.
 

Trango Towers

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Bad analogy

Britain is an island, there is no Tank Army that surrounds it thus it makes sense for the British Army to reduce its Tank Formations. The UK faces asymmetric threats, not a conventional one.

Pakistan on the other hand faces an existential conventional threat from Indian Tank Armies. Indian Tank Formations are well armed, trained and have an impressive logistical support network to help them punch deep into enemy territories. Nagarno Karabakh is a not a good example because neither sides possessed a modern C4I network which made it impossible for Armenia to shoot down these drones. Both India and Pakistan possess modern C4I networks, the incoming drones by either side would be immediately engaged and neutralized by the AD Forces.

To counter this very potent threat of 1200 T90's, Pakistan needs to maintain a credible number of Modern MBT's to meet the Indian Armored Formation Thrusts head one. Pakistan needs to maintain its existing policy of maintaining a credible Tank Force along with Highly Mobile Frontier Forces or what you call, Tank Destroyers to be deployed along the borders.
Omg. So let's assume Britain is an island and only asymetic warfare . Why on earth was it the 1st to invent a tank and why has it bothered all these years to design develop and maintain tank battalions. Additionally when was the last time Britain fought a war on its soil? I am just amazed at some of the thinking.
Have a nice day
 

iLION12345_1

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Omg. So let's assume Britain is an island and only asymetic warfare . Why on earth was it the 1st to invent a tank and why has it bothered all these years to design develop and maintain tank battalions. Additionally when was the last time Britain fought a war on its soil? I am just amazed at some of the thinking.
Have a nice day
It seems you have little knowledge of history my friend. Britain was the first to develop a tank because of this thing called World war 1, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of it. Britain, and other countries in the European region maintained large tank armies during WW2 and in the Cold War since there was the threat of invasion from each other (In WW1 and 2) and then the Soviet Union in the Cold War. In modern times, countries like Britain have absolutely no use for large armies of tanks as they have no threat of invasion. Same with Germany and France. Hence they Maintain small but high-tech tank forces for foreign deployments. You do not need thousands of tanks to fight on foreign soil in modern warfare, in fact apart from the USA and maybe China/Russia no country can even main such a fleet on foreign soil.
So far all the areas where drones have absolutely dominated tanks are one sided conflicts where there is little air cover and A2A capability, in the case of Pak-India, it will be a large combined arms war, where drones would be less useful, as mentioned by eagle. They are still a potent force but they are easy to hunt down with SAMS and Jets.
 

Smarana Mitra

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Again, india has not designed its own FCS. Modernized T72 uses Polish FCS (SKO-1T DRAWA-T) T90 uses French-Russian ESSA FCS and Arjun MK-1 uses SAGEMs FCS. MK-1A is “supposed” to have indigenous FCS (but not indigenous thermals), much like AK-1. But that is not in service yet.
The FCS has been indigenised either by reverse engineering or R&D. It does not matter what FCS it used earlier. Arjun MK1 has only 30% indigenous parts as it is a limited production. It is likely to be discontinued and all focus will be on T90 henceforth.
 

iLION12345_1

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The FCS has been indigenised either by reverse engineering or R&D. It does not matter what FCS it used earlier. Arjun MK1 has only 30% indigenous parts as it is a limited production. It is likely to be discontinued and all focus will be on T90 henceforth.
You keep repeating the same thing hoping it will become the truth. It is not Reverse engineered or developed in India. It is only Made in India under transfer of technology, India does not own the rights to it. (This refers to the FCS in T90, T72 and Arjun MK-1). If MK-1A has indigenous FCS we will see it when the tank enters service.
Only in India is a 200 tank production run called “limited” and the same tank being only 30% local is called an indigenous tank.
 

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