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terry5

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Write it in Urdu for me. I can read urdu.
If I'm not wrong we are called Hindustani and not bharti.

Now read this>>> (if you know how to read urdu)
بھارتیہ


Bharti is a goddess's name.
I object to the inappropriate manner in which the word is used
.
as i am with the word wahhabi
a name of God used derogatory
 

SQ8

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@Oscar, that was uncalled for. Everybody knows the context in which 'Bharti', rather than Bharatiya, is used; if you are going to fling our own Constitution at us, then use the correct grammatical term. It is not for nothing that distortions of the word 'Pakistani' by British yobs is concerned a racist slur; that is the same reason why the distortion of 'Bharatiya' is objected to by every single Indian member.

Let me assure you that this fool has read the Constitution, understands its sections, and also understands how those who belong to a country that has not the slightest clue how constitutions work can use ours as a prop to defend their essentially indefensible rudeness and racism.



Seriously? May I use a religious Islamic term for you or any other poster in sarcasm and get away with it? Your using it in your signature is different; my using it as a sneer is not the same thing. None of those using Bharti is using Saraswati's alternative name; they are consciously using it as a term of contempt.



"Alas, poor Oscar, I knew him well."



You know what?

Try a brave, bold, daring experiment: try doing without use of that offensive word. It doesn't depend on whether you think it offensive or not. It depends on whether we think so. We do.

What happens if you use Indian instead? Some physiological deformation takes place?
I have already mentioned that corrections to Bharati can be suggested.The term Bharati came straight from a long standing pronunciation within our media since the days of Ghulam Mohammad and has little to do with sneer or otherwise ( as if suddenly sneering has become offensive to the population of Indians here who spare no bloody chance to do so otherwise at us Pakistanis).

If the constitutional spelling for someone from Bharat is Bharatiya; then all that is required is to request that A Bharti Member be spelled as Bharatiya. It is a valid request and can be looked into, but it wont end up in banning Bharti just for the sake that someone just woke up and found it offensive because Pakistanis use it.

As for the usage of religious terms, we have usage of Salafis both as a praise, an insult and general conversation; have not heard any complaints of banning it. I shudder to think why some religious term and that too associated with a very positive diety is an insult unless someone goes really out of their way to do so.


As for my "death", please remember it is this "dear oscar" who has butted his heads against his countrymen to ensure that Indians are treated fairly and with respect. So pardon me if from now onwards I stop giving a rats arse in that regard as clearly all it buys is people sitting on top of our heads , on what is a PAKISTANI forum, and making hue and cry on absolutely irrelevant issues to actual forum problems just because they feel slighted by a long standing cultural hand me down;
ESPEICIALLY When there is LITERALLY NO, ZIP, NADA, ZERO , DOES NOT EXIST a counterpart in any Bharatiya owned and run forum that even gives one tenth of the leeway we do and instead engage in open racism, religious insults and outright genocidal suggestions against our country which would make the sanest projectile vomit.
 

Levina

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@Oscar, that was uncalled for. Everybody knows the context in which 'Bharti', rather than Bharatiya, is used; if you are going to fling our own Constitution at us, then use the correct grammatical term. It is not for nothing that distortions of the word 'Pakistani' by British yobs is concerned a racist slur; that is the same reason why the distortion of 'Bharatiya' is objected to by every single Indian member.

Let me assure you that this fool has read the Constitution, understands its sections, and also understands how those who belong to a country that has not the slightest clue how constitutions work can use ours as a prop to defend their essentially indefensible rudeness and racism.
Had this issue been raised by you I don't think our dear mod would have vehemently opposed it the way he did when it was raised by a "fool" called moi.
Lol
 

coffee_cup

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You know what?

Try a brave, bold, daring experiment: try doing without use of that offensive word. It doesn't depend on whether you think it offensive or not. It depends on whether we think so. We do.

What happens if you use Indian instead? Some physiological deformation takes place?
I am gonna be a little bit blunt here, Joe. @Oscar has clarified it already.

Indians find many things "very offensive", which are part and parcel of Pakistani life.

For example:

Indians find it very offensive that we call Jamu&Kashmir "Indian Occupied Kashmir"
They find it very offensive that we show Kashmir (including IOK) as part of Pakistan
They (majority) find it very offensive that we slaughter cows and eat beef
And now more recently, some of them have started to find "Bharti" - a normal non-derogatory Urdu word - offenisve too.

To that I just say, sorry lads, we are not gonna change our diet, our PoV and our language, only because you find it "offensive". It is a matter of principle.

It is very simple, if I go to a forum called "Indian Defence Forum", created and managed by Indians, I'll not start demanding them to stop showing Kashmir as part of India, or stop doing many other things no matter how offensive that might be to me.

You (Indians) in this case are required to integrate in majority area and not vice versa. This unreasonable demand is analog to all those rigid full Burqa wearing Muslim women who want to live in Europe but find it very offensive that other women are walking around without it.

Now please lets just move on.
 
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-xXx-

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I have already mentioned that corrections to Bharati can be suggested.The term Bharati came straight from a long standing pronunciation within our media since the days of Ghulam Mohammad and has little to do with sneer or otherwise ( as if suddenly sneering has become offensive to the population of Indians here who spare no bloody chance to do so otherwise at us Pakistanis).

If the constitutional spelling for someone from Bharat is Bharatiya; then all that is required is to request that A Bharti Member be spelled as Bharatiya. It is a valid request and can be looked into, but it wont end up in banning Bharti just for the sake that someone just woke up and found it offensive because Pakistanis use it.

As for the usage of religious terms, we have usage of Salafis both as a praise, an insult and general conversation; have not heard any complaints of banning it. I shudder to think why some religious term and that too associated with a very positive diety is an insult unless someone goes really out of their way to do so.


As for my "death", please remember it is this "dear oscar" who has butted his heads against his countrymen to ensure that Indians are treated fairly and with respect. So pardon me if from now onwards I stop giving a rats arse in that regard as clearly all it buys is people sitting on top of our heads , on what is a PAKISTANI forum, and making hue and cry on absolutely irrelevant issues to actual forum problems just because they feel slighted by a long standing cultural hand me down;
"Bharti" an alleged urdu word in an otherwise all English written post? Isn't the language of post need to be English?

And isn't we can understand the urge to call Indians bharti - being only urdu word in whole post?

The words are never offensive, the intent are. The same case with "P.aki".

I have seen announcement banning use of urdu/hindi or any regional language in sections outside members club but not sure why this urdu term which has its English counterpart is so vehemently protected.

ESPEICIALLY When there is LITERALLY NO, ZIP, NADA, ZERO , DOES NOT EXIST a counterpart in any Bharatiya owned and run forum that even gives one tenth of the leeway we do and instead engage in open racism, religious insults and outright genocidal suggestions against our country which would make the sanest projectile vomit.
Sorry but no argument I saw here.

Its on YOU what you want forum to be. The one you accused are barren lands, its YOU guys chose not to be one. How can you borrow the same principles from them when you don't want to be like them?

Your own choices can never be someone else burden.
 

Joe Shearer

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I am gonna be a little bit blunt here, Joe. @Oscar has clarified it already.

Indians find many things "very offensive", which are part and parcel of Pakistani life.

For example:

Indians find it very offensive that we call Jamu&Kashmir "Indian Occupied Kashmir"
They find it very offensive that we show Kashmir (including IOK) as part of Pakistan
They (majority) find it very offensive that we slaughter cows and eat beef
And now more recently, some of them have started to find "Bharti" - a normal non-derogatory Urdu word - offenisve too.

To that I just say, sorry lads, we are not gonna change our diet, our PoV and our language, only because you find it "offensive". It is a matter of principle.

It is very simple, if I go to a forum called "Indian Defence Forum", created and managed by Indians, I'll not start demanding them to stop showing Kashmir as part of India, or stop doing many other things no matter how offensive that might be to me.

You (Indians) in this case are required to integrate in majority area and not vice versa. This unreasonable demand is analog to all those rigid full Burqa wearing Muslim women who want to live in Europe but find it very offensive that other women are walking around without it.

Now please lets just move on.
Nobody found it offensive that you call J&K Indian occupied Kashmir, except professional trolls, who come here to disrupt sessions. I do not think you will find a single such reference to such offence being taken by any of the reasonable Indians - there are many - who come to PDF.

Nobody finds it offensive that you show Kashmir - parts of it or the whole - as part of Pakistan. That would be monumentally silly. These are illusions created by you yourselves around the wholly synthetic posturing of those who mean mischief. By giving in to their tantrums, you are achieving precisely what they want.

There are some who have found references to beef-eating offensive; there are those opposites among you as well, who would like nothing better but to see the bloody end of every pagan around. If you take them to be representative of Indians, including born-Hindus like me who eat beef, I can only smile. It would be a childish reaction.

The word 'Bharti' is, on the other hand, deeply offensive. All the other examples you quoted are paper-thin. None of them were done by Pakistanis to cause offence. You genuinely think India is occupying a territory that is yours; it is that belief that makes you show maps and pictures that we do not agree with. But it is certainly not intended to give offence, any more than having a steak is intended to piss off somebody who reads about it.

That is where the intention to insult comes in. You know very well what the intention is; you yourselves, as a nation, are hypersensitive to the shortened form that now is recognised as pejorative by both the user and the target. To pretend that you have slipped into it, as a natural consequence of speaking Urdu, is ridiculous; knowing that it is offensive, there is absolutely no need to use it unless you wish to use it in precisely its most objectionable sense.

Your threats and blandishments mean nothing or less than nothing. Somebody who had joined less than a few weeks ago instructed me that our numbers were desirable only to enable the administration to make money. Perhaps so, perhaps not. I take it that we have a right to be here. When we have a right to be here, like a Muslim in Britain, we also have a right to voice our candid opinion, whether or not you choose to hector us, about issues that move us. The word that you consciously and deliberately, every man jack of you, use to ridicule us is offensive. If you wish to ignore that and to remind us, with crass lack of grace, that you are the owners and we can find our own football and our own playing ground, go ahead. Each of us will react in our own individual fashion; none can say how. I certainly have no common purpose with the others except to object to a racist and ethnic slur. A foul one.

I have already mentioned that corrections to Bharati can be suggested.The term Bharati came straight from a long standing pronunciation within our media since the days of Ghulam Mohammad and has little to do with sneer or otherwise ( as if suddenly sneering has become offensive to the population of Indians here who spare no bloody chance to do so otherwise at us Pakistanis).

If the constitutional spelling for someone from Bharat is Bharatiya; then all that is required is to request that A Bharti Member be spelled as Bharatiya. It is a valid request and can be looked into, but it wont end up in banning Bharti just for the sake that someone just woke up and found it offensive because Pakistanis use it.

As for the usage of religious terms, we have usage of Salafis both as a praise, an insult and general conversation; have not heard any complaints of banning it. I shudder to think why some religious term and that too associated with a very positive diety is an insult unless someone goes really out of their way to do so.


As for my "death", please remember it is this "dear oscar" who has butted his heads against his countrymen to ensure that Indians are treated fairly and with respect. So pardon me if from now onwards I stop giving a rats arse in that regard as clearly all it buys is people sitting on top of our heads , on what is a PAKISTANI forum, and making hue and cry on absolutely irrelevant issues to actual forum problems just because they feel slighted by a long standing cultural hand me down;
ESPEICIALLY When there is LITERALLY NO, ZIP, NADA, ZERO , DOES NOT EXIST a counterpart in any Bharatiya owned and run forum that even gives one tenth of the leeway we do and instead engage in open racism, religious insults and outright genocidal suggestions against our country which would make the sanest projectile vomit.
The complaint about the word is not recent; I have raised it several times. There is no mechanism - there can be none - for these adjustments. Did anyone raise a petition to ban the use of the equivalent phrase? Was it not known and understood as a pejorative? Once a member raises a word and takes offence at it, it is for the management to take a view. As far as I can see, it has taken a view. Whatever that view was born of, it is a position which cannot be denied. If it was based on the foul behaviour of Indian defence sites that are notorious, that, for instance, I abstained from joining in spite of several invitations from their arch-druid, it was because the hatred towards Pakistan and Pakistanis was nauseating, and it was not possible for any decent person to pretend that it did not exist. To take those examples as reasons for ignoring these offences is merely to slip to somewhere closer to their level.

You talked of sneers and their prevalence. Even this morning, I awarded a negative rating to an Indian who sneered. More than 50% of my negative ratings have been given to offensive people from my own country. Check if you wish. There are some Indians who come here to sneer. Do not, please, tar us with the same brush; that is even more offensive, far, far more offensive than being called Bharti.

Since you believe that a formal petition is necessary, let me ignore what The Doors said; let me pretend that it IS possible to petition the Lord with prayer. Let me petition the administration to insist on Bharatiya and not on the insulting version Bharti.

You mentioned the contradiction between the use of the word as an insult, as some of us found it, and its existence as an alternative name for a Hindu deity. Unfortunately that is flimsy logic. Just because a word exists that has elements of the divine, it does not preclude the ill-minded from using a corruption of another, wholly different word, which makes it sound - not that they knew it or intended it - like the sanctified word, as an insult. The two are independent; those who wished to injure had no idea then, and they have had an idea only through this discussion.

You took hurt at my quoting the Prince. If you had been in a less petulant mood, you might have reflected that it not taunting you with your death. I am appalled at the interpretation given. I am appalled that you can think me capable of it. It was my mourning of the passing of a phase in the forum, a phase when we felt well-protected, indeed, defended by the moderators, not against the extreme elements of the Pakistani, but strangely enough, against the extreme elements among the Indians. And that passing is precisely what makes your ending the most difficult to read and to remember, the most bitter of all the words that have been exchanged.

Were all of you blind and deaf to the clear indications that decent Indians DID NOT believe in open racism, religious insults and outright genocidal suggestions against your country that would make the sanest projectile - what is it that brings a projectile to the tip of every Pakistani's tongue when he is enraged? - vomit? did you not get it, do you not get it, even now, that those who indulge in that kind of nauseating anti-social behaviour are precisely those cowering quietly, hoping for the storm to blow over, so that they can continue to wreck every conversation that starts, and can damn every Indian that reaches his hand forward as a Quisling? If that is how strongly you and others feel about those swine - swine they are and swine is what I will call them, knowing that it is illicit - then is it not all the more reason why you should listen with some understanding and sympathy to those who do not belong to that camp? Instead, what did we get? A rain of abuse? Even half-baked teenagers have now got into the act, and have the presumption to tell us what we may or may not do. If that had been the atmosphere at the outset, dear Sir, trust me, none of us with any self-respect would have darkened your doors.

Had this issue been raised by you I don't think our dear mod would have vehemently opposed it the way he did when it was raised by a "fool" called moi.
Lol
A plain question to you - why is that so?

Do you realise that this is a question worth pondering over? Do you realise that keeping to a straight and narrow path, treading the razor's edge, is not an easy thing? That most of us are self-indulgent and allow ourselves to drift with the prevailing current? Or perhaps you believe that this is a fruit of sycophancy? That a right-thinking, right-feeling Indian can never have the attention of the decent Pakistanis on this forum, that such a thing is plain impossible?

I have always found my fellow Indians to be the greatest obstructions to the forum, and that is why we are not heard; we are seen as a pestilence. And the horrors that we inflict on Pakistanis on our fora are brought up and thrown in our faces again and again. Not something to be proud of.

Remember when I tried to persuade them (Pakistani members, led by @RAMPAGE ) to petition the Government of India to strive for peace, and wrote a memorial faithfully shadowing their thoughts? Just look at what @coffee_cup has said in his Nelsonic manner above and compare it with what I had argued. And remember that the reward for that attempt at putting ourselves in their shoes to write as they would write got me called Jaichand. You should remember, you were part of those cheering the attack.
 

coffee_cup

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Nobody found it offensive that you call J&K Indian occupied Kashmir, except professional trolls, who come here to disrupt sessions. I do not think you will find a single such reference to such offence being taken by any of the reasonable Indians - there are many - who come to PDF.

Nobody finds it offensive that you show Kashmir - parts of it or the whole - as part of Pakistan. That would be monumentally silly. These are illusions created by you yourselves around the wholly synthetic posturing of those who mean mischief. By giving in to their tantrums, you are achieving precisely what they want.

There are some who have found references to beef-eating offensive; there are those opposites among you as well, who would like nothing better but to see the bloody end of every pagan around. If you take them to be representative of Indians, including born-Hindus like me who eat beef, I can only smile. It would be a childish reaction.

The word 'Bharti' is, on the other hand, deeply offensive. All the other examples you quoted are paper-thin. None of them were done by Pakistanis to cause offence. You genuinely think India is occupying a territory that is yours; it is that belief that makes you show maps and pictures that we do not agree with. But it is certainly not intended to give offence, any more than having a steak is intended to piss off somebody who reads about it.

That is where the intention to insult comes in. You know very well what the intention is; you yourselves, as a nation, are hypersensitive to the shortened form that now is recognised as pejorative by both the user and the target. To pretend that you have slipped into it, as a natural consequence of speaking Urdu, is ridiculous; knowing that it is offensive, there is absolutely no need to use it unless you wish to use it in precisely its most objectionable sense.

Your threats and blandishments mean nothing or less than nothing. Somebody who had joined less than a few weeks ago instructed me that our numbers were desirable only to enable the administration to make money. Perhaps so, perhaps not. I take it that we have a right to be here. When we have a right to be here, like a Muslim in Britain, we also have a right to voice our candid opinion, whether or not you choose to hector us, about issues that move us. The word that you consciously and deliberately, every man jack of you, use to ridicule us is offensive. If you wish to ignore that and to remind us, with crass lack of grace, that you are the owners and we can find our own football and our own playing ground, go ahead. Each of us will react in our own individual fashion; none can say how. I certainly have no common purpose with the others except to object to a racist and ethnic slur. A foul one.
Now, Joe, even though I appreciate your arguments on some issues, in this particular issue I think you are arguing just for the sake of argument. And it is deeply offensive to me that you are asking me to change my national language by stopping to use "Bharat" or "Bharti". Similarly it is extremely offensive for us that you (Indians) show Kashmir as part of India or lay claim to our heritage OR "play the victim of terrorism card".

"Paper-thin" for you, deeply offensive for us. Now can you demand your fellow countrymen to stop doing that, because this is very very offensive to us Pakistanis?

I can go on...

You are trying to enforce Indian rules on PDF, and we can not accept that. Try to understand our point of view, we come here on a Pakistani forum to interact with Pakistanis and share our opinions. Majority of us are showing a great degree of restrain (some exceptions aside) while addressing India. Oh you have no idea, what words would I love to use to address Modi and all those fanatics sitting in your govt!. But can I do that? No! Because PDF has put strict restrains on Pakistanis.

Compare PDF with any Indian managed forum and see for yourself the difference.

There are no "threats and blandishments". Just few facts to make you see things from our perspective.

You and many sane Indians (like the ones I used to work with) are welcome to put your case. Just don't force us to change our way of life!

Ps.: This is anyway not my forum, I am just a user. Had it been my forum, I would have given outright bans to all those trolls displaying wrong maps by showing Kashmir as part of India, laying claims to our heritage or doing Indian propaganda here (like that of "SirGKal" strikes).
 

RAMPAGE

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@Joe Shearer

You should disregard Oscar's indulgence in this cheeky flamboyance. This is something that even the very best from the US are susceptible to. Can't blame them really. Having 90000-ton ACs stationed around the globe makes it your prerogative. :P Let's not make too much of this. We all have our personalities. It wouldn't be any fun to read Oscar's posts if that weren't the case. :D
 

Joe Shearer

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Now, Joe, even though I appreciate your arguments on some issues, in this particular issue I think you are arguing just for the sake of argument. And it is deeply offensive to me that you are asking me to change my national language by stopping to use "Bharat" or "Bharti". Similarly it is extremely offensive for us that you (Indians) show Kashmir as part of India or lay claim to our heritage OR "play the victim of terrorism card".

"Paper-thin" for you, deeply offensive for us. Now can you demand your fellow countrymen to stop doing that, because this is very very offensive to us Pakistanis?
On their fora, I can. Not on your forum.

I can go on...
Do.

Do I look like having either the capacity or the inclination to stop you?

You are trying to enforce Indian rules on PDF, and we can not accept that.
ABSOLUTELY not. I am merely pointing out that a word you use is offensive to us. What you do thereafter is up to you. As you never tire of reminding us, even those of us who have contributed substantially to the reputation and the quality of your forum, it IS your forum. We are mere guests. So do what you wish.

Surely you are not saying that because this is your forum we are to go around with ours tongues bound?

Try to understand our point of view, we come here on a Pakistani forum to interact with Pakistanis and share our opinions. Majority of us are showing a great degree of restrain (some exceptions aside) while addressing India. Oh you have no idea, what words would I love to use to address Modi and all those fanatics sitting in your govt!. But can I do that? No! Because PDF has put strict restrains on Pakistanis.
And are similar and symmetric restraints not put on the unruly among the Indians? I have never felt any constraint; whatever I wished to say I have said. But the belligerent on both sides?

Compare PDF with any Indian managed forum and see for yourself the difference.
I have, I was sickened, and that's why I am exclusively here and not there.

There are no "threats and blandishments". Just few facts to make you see things from our perspective.

You and many sane Indians (like the ones I used to work with) are welcome to put your case. Just don't force us to change our way of life!

Ps.: This is anyway not my forum, I am just a user. Had it been my forum, I would have given outright bans to all those trolls displaying wrong maps by showing Kashmir as part of India, laying claims to our heritage or doing Indian propaganda here (like that of "SirGKal" strikes).
NOBODY has asked you or anyone else to change your way of life. Some of us have on the contrary admonished and chided Indian members. Go among the Indian trolls and ask them, whom do they hate most? Confirm it for yourself, it is only sometimes a Pakistani.

@Joe Shearer

You should disregard Oscar's indulgence in this cheeky flamboyance. This is something that even the very best from the US are susceptible to. Can't blame them really. Having 90000-ton ACs stationed around the globe makes it your prerogative. :P Let's not make too much of this. We all have our personalities. It wouldn't be any fun to read Oscar's posts if that weren't the case. :D
I continue to admire and respect him, second only to @niaz Sahib. They are in a class of their own.

You must remember that I come from a breed that cannot hold their tongues.
 

coffee_cup

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Since you believe that a formal petition is necessary, let me ignore what The Doors said; let me pretend that it IS possible to petition the Lord with prayer. Let me petition the administration to insist on Bharatiya and not on the insulting version Bharti.

And I put a rival petition to the administration not to restrict the use of "Bharti", because this is a perfectly non-derogatory word used in Urdu literature.


Otherwise you set a dangerous precedent that every now and then someone will come up with another petition to ban some other Urdu word, because it is "insulting" to them for whatever reason.
 

Stag112

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And I put a rival petition to the administration not to restrict the use of "Bharti", because this is a perfectly non-derogatory word used in Urdu literature.

Otherwise you set a dangerous precedent that every now and then someone will come up with another petition to ban some other Urdu word, because it is "insulting" to them for whatever reason.
I agree, it should be used in Urdu, not English.

Otherwise we must call your overlords cheeni- a perfectly good Urdu word too :)

But you are a pakistani, so hypocrisy is just a way of life lol!
 

Joe Shearer

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And I put a rival petition to the administration not to restrict the use of "Bharti", because this is a perfectly non-derogatory word used in Urdu literature.

Otherwise you set a dangerous precedent that every now and then someone will come up with another petition to ban some other Urdu word, because it is "insulting" to them for whatever reason.
In that case, use Urdu. Don't use English.
 

coffee_cup

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I agree, it should be used in Urdu, not English.
In that case, use Urdu. Don't use English.
Pakistanis mostly use "Urdenglish", a kind of Pakistani English, where so many Urdu words are often used within English sentences.

Every 2nd-3rd Post by Pakistanis is a prime example of that. Nothing wrong with it.

Just like nothing wrong with using "Denglish" (German version of English).
 

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