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Imran Khan - This is plain silly of you to say .....

313ghazi

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Question by triggered liberals: Rape to phir bhi hoty hen, rape to burkay wali ke sath bhi hoty hen.
" Vulgarity leads to a drastic increase in number of rapes, decreasing vulgairty decreases the number of rapes not diminish it completely. By your defination we should remove the penalty for murder cause it still happens. Vulgarity is one of the dominant reasons for increasing numbe of rapes, not the only reason. The way to decrease number of rapes begs a two tier strategy, forst to decrease vulgairty to prevent rape and then to inforce extreme penalties for rape, not surprisingly these khooni liberals are against both, u see them protesting against rape yet when someone enforces the death penalty for rapists they start protesting against the death penalty."
Don't be daft. Nobody has said that. The problem is the PM is suggesting that the victims of rape play a part in getting raped.

It's like saying" crossing the road contributes towards getting run over". If you don't want to be run over stay at home. In this you can be run over by accident - nobody is raped by accident.

Whenever someone is murdered nobody says "he should not have disagreed with the other person". The disagreement might well have triggered the murder or encouraged the murder, but why is the focus on the murderer?

It is victim blaming.
 

Awan68

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Don't be daft. Nobody has said that. The problem is the PM is suggesting that the victims of rape play a part in getting raped.

It's like saying" crossing the road contributes towards getting run over". If you don't want to be run over stay at home. In this you can be run over by accident - nobody is raped by accident.

Whenever someone is murdered nobody says "he should not have disagreed with the other person". The disagreement might well have triggered the murder or encouraged the murder, but why is the focus on the murderer?

It is victim blaming.
As usual, what i said went right over ur head, i guess its a common trait of liberals to deflect logic and paint roses.
 

Mujahid Memon

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Could you please explain that comment a bit more for my benefit. What balance are we seeking here and according to what standards?
The disbalance happens in male hormones when people watch highly sexualized media such as movies, p0*n, dance shows, showing women as objects etc. Due to the advent of technology and internet, both the Eastern and Western people have access to the same level of media content. Now to balance out this disbalance, Western people, unlike Eastern people have access to consual sex, bf/gf, one night stands etc but Eastern people do not have such luxuries. To balance this disbalance, there are several methods, first I will list them neutrally, then I will give my opinion on each's pros and cons:

1. Go full Western so people can fulfill their desires and urges. People can have consensual relationships, ONS etc

2. Strict enforcement of law and order so fear in people's mind is greater than their biological urges.

3. Religious/Islamic Education and

4. Non-religious Ethical education

5. Make marriages easy and early

6. Controlling and stopping "Vulgarity" such as in the forms of foreign degenerate media as said by IK.


Now to discuss these points
For point#1, is it even remotely possible in Pakistan and does it comes without its negative points such as destruction of family structure. Let alone the fact rape and harassment statistics does not show Western so called civilized countries as heavens for females (contrary to some members' claims here).

Point#2: We all know the situation of law and order situation in Pakistan. So...

For Point#3 and 4: I would say both are good approaches but the problem is that one can only provide education but can not force education down the throat of someone. As our beloved member Mr. @313ghazi said that sex education will tell people the difference between rape and consensual sex. Nice!!!. So Mr. Ghazi first of all I want to ask you how did you assume that people of Pakistan don't even know this simple fact? Do the robbers know they are doing something wrong? Do murderers know they are doing something wrong? but still they do these crimes? Why?? Third, aren't there clear and concise verses in Quran against the sin of Qoum-e-Lut and their punishment but still kids are sexually abused and molested by molvis in madrassahs. Don't those molvis have read the Quran and these specific verses but still they do these grave sins. Why??

For point#5 the less said the better, this is a debate on its own.

Point#6: Yes we have a thread against this. Keywords: moral policing, blaming the victim.


Now in my opinion, except point#1 all are suitable options for our country.

In the end we are all human beings and what makes a human a "human"?? It is the FEAR. For some it is the fear of persecution, for some the fear of judgement day, the fear of shame, the fear of the same deeds happening to them or their loved ones, the fear of pain, the fear death, so on and so forth. If you remove all these fears from a human, he/she will cease to exist as a human and become an animal salve of his/her biology. Yes the same biology who designed the MALES to impregnate as many FEMALES as possible; and designed the FEMALES to be impregnated by the best MALE possible.

Regards.
 

VCheng

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The disbalance happens in male hormones when people watch highly sexualized media such as movies, p0*n, dance shows, showing women as objects etc. Due to the advent of technology and internet, both the Eastern and Western people have access to the same level of media content. Now to balance out this disbalance, Western people, unlike Eastern people have access to consual sex, bf/gf, one night stands etc but Eastern people do not have such luxuries. To balance this disbalance, there are several methods, first I will list them neutrally, then I will give my opinion on each's pros and cons:

1. Go full Western so people can fulfill their desires and urges. People can have consensual relationships, ONS etc

2. Strict enforcement of law and order so fear in people's mind is greater than their biological urges.

3. Religious/Islamic Education and

4. Non-religious Ethical education

5. Make marriages easy and early

6. Controlling and stopping "Vulgarity" such as in the forms of foreign degenerate media as said by IK.


Now to discuss these points
For point#1, is it even remotely possible in Pakistan and does it comes without its negative points such as destruction of family structure. Let alone the fact rape and harassment statistics does not show Western so called civilized countries as heavens for females (contrary to some members' claims here).

Point#2: We all know the situation of law and order situation in Pakistan. So...

For Point#3 and 4: I would say both are good approaches but the problem is that one can only provide education but can not force education down the throat of someone. As our beloved member Mr. @313ghazi said that sex education will tell people the difference between rape and consensual sex. Nice!!!. So Mr. Ghazi first of all I want to ask you how did you assume that people of Pakistan don't even know this simple fact? Do the robbers know they are doing something wrong? Do murderers know they are doing something wrong? but still they do these crimes? Why?? Third, aren't there clear and concise verses in Quran against the sin of Qoum-e-Lut and their punishment but still kids are sexually abused and molested by molvis in madrassahs. Don't those molvis have read the Quran and these specific verses but still they do these grave sins. Why??

For point#5 the less said the better, this is a debate on its own.

Point#6: Yes we have a thread against this. Keywords: moral policing, blaming the victim.


Now in my opinion, except point#1 all are suitable options for our country.

In the end we are all human beings and what makes a human a "human"?? It is the FEAR. For some it is the fear of persecution, for some the fear of judgement day, the fear of shame, the fear of the same deeds happening to them or their loved ones, the fear of pain, the fear death, so on and so forth. If you remove all these fears from a human, he/she will cease to exist as a human and become an animal salve of his/her biology. Yes the same biology who designed the MALES to impregnate as many FEMALES as possible; and designed the FEMALES to be impregnated by the best MALE possible.

Regards.
Thank you for explaining your point of view.
So no woman ever said no to him? Could never have said no to him? And if they had, he would have raped them?
Please keep in mind that people and their views can change with time. IK in his younger days may not have the kinds of views that he has expressed as the OP in this thread. But now he does, and he is entitled to change his views, just like the rest of us.
 
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313ghazi

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@Mujahid Memon in two of your posts you stated:

Yes because those civilized countries' women sleep around purposefully then why would anyone rape them.
To me this suggests you think rape happens because some people don't have a sexual outlet for thier desires. That is wrong. Rape happens because someone wants to use sex as a way to harm someone. This is why in all military conflicts around the world, women are raped, its used as a weapon of war to harm people and to humilate them. Men are often raped too, again to humilate them, not as a sexual outlet.

If your understanding was correct thaen nobody would be raped in sexually liberal countries. That is not the case. If that was true then children, elderly, etc would not be raped. Sexual perversion is a part of rape, but its not the key factor.

There is nothing like consensual sex in Pakistani society. Either it is marriage (halal sex) or zina (haram sex)
What do you think consensual sex is? Sex where the people involved choose to be involved. This can be haram or halal, but it exists, in both forms. Non consensual sex is rape, which is haram and illegal. What do you define as consenual sex?

THIS is exactly why we need sex education in our country.

1. People need to know the biology involved.

2. People need to know the family planning aspects.

3. People need to know the societal aspects, such as consent for example. There are religious aspects to this such as what relationships are permitted or not, what acts are permitted or not, rights of partners, duties of partners.

There is a discussion to be had about what is appropriate to teach to whom, how it should be taught, who should teach it, what age it should be taught at - but there needs to be education and it needs to cover our societal needs.
 
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Mujahid Memon

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1. So no woman ever said no to him? Could never have said no to him? 2. And if they had, he would have raped them?
1. Even one said no, even many said no, point is she won't be the first or the last one given his personality and openness of British society.

2. I don't know what he would have done or not done in different circumstances. I am not a God to know about someone's mind. He might have done this but the victim did not come forward due to fear or something else, who knows?? He might have not done this despite urges due to fears, who knows?? It is the matter between him, the affected party, and God.
 

Mujahid Memon

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To me this suggests you think rape happens because some people don't have a sexual outlet for thier desires. That is wrong. Rape happens because someone wants to use sex as a way to harm someone. This is why in all military conflicts around the world, women are raped, its used as a weapon of war to harm people and to humilate them. Men are often raped too, again to humilate them, not as a sexual outlet.

If your understanding was correct thaen nobody would be raped in sexually liberal countries. That is not the case. If that was true then children, elderly, etc would not be raped. Sexual perversion is a part of rape, but its not the key factor.
Yes it is one of the reason but not the only reason of rape. And my context was not only rape but also other sexual crimes as well such as harassment, pedophilia etc.

and even in the context of rape as a war tool, my theory of FEAR still stands true. For example, when a country's military occupies another country, they do all those heinous crimes because they do not have the fear of persecution from either country's justice system. Even soldiers from the so called civilized countries indulge in these barbaric activities which only shows that when these people behave civilized, it is only due to FEAR. Only a person who has the FEAR of God in his heart will refrain from such animalistic behavior because he knows the God knows his deeds very well and he has to answer for his crimes on the day of judgement.
What do you think consensual sex is? Sex where the people involved choose to be involved. This can be haram or halal, but it exists, in both forms. Non consensual sex is rape, which is haram and illegal. What do you define as consenual sex?
I can't comprehend where we have a disagreement on these points. I said the same thing you said, albeit in a more layman terms.

Are we agree on the part that non-consensual/rape is a heinous crime both religiously and even by Western standards? Right?? I think the answer is YES.

Are we agree on the part that consensual sex outside of marriage is legal by Western standards but not allowed in Islam? Right??
THIS is exactly why we need sex education in our country.

1. People need to know the biology involved.

2. People need to know the family planning aspects.

3. People need to know the societal aspects, such as consent for example. There are religious aspects to this such as what relationships are permitted or not, what acts are permitted or not, rights of partners, duties of partners.
Did you read my post #110.

And you are contradicting yourself. On one hand you said that rape never happens but only to deliberately harm someone while on the other hand you say that sexual education will reduce rapes. So when someone wants to harm someone he already know where to inflict the pain so he doesn't need any education. Educating the murderers that killing someone is wrong? Hmmm??
 

Mujahid Memon

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Question by triggered liberals: Rape to phir bhi hoty hen, rape to burkay wali ke sath bhi hoty hen.
" Vulgarity leads to a drastic increase in number of rapes, decreasing vulgairty decreases the number of rapes not diminish it completely. By your defination we should remove the penalty for murder cause it still happens. Vulgarity is one of the dominant reasons for increasing numbe of rapes, not the only reason. The way to decrease number of rapes begs a two tier strategy, first to decrease vulgarity to prevent rape and then to enforce extreme penalties for rape, not surprisingly these khooni liberals are against both, u see them protesting against rape yet when someone enforces the death penalty for rapists they start protesting against the death penalty as well."
Please don't degrade true liberals by calling these dumb mental slaves of West as liberal. Their liberalism starts at woman's body and ends at sex. A true liberal is the one who thinks out of the box, whose imagination is beyond the horizons, whose mind is not capped by any artificial limits. Don't let these degenerates insult the true liberals.

I am a proud Liberal myself.
So what exactly do you want people of Pakistan to know, and when to know, and how will it reduce rapes and other sexual crimes??
 
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Mujahid Memon

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Generalization in this case is not a good idea. He was talking about rapes of grownup women.
Child abuse is due to child pornography.
And every rape is due to the fact that rapist thinks that he can get away with his/her act.
And women can't simply rape men.
So basically this lady here is mixing things.
Aur kahan kay mard chaddi banyaan me phir rahe hote hain?? :lol:
 

313ghazi

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Yes it is one of the reason but not the only reason of rape. And my context was not only rape but also other sexual crimes as well such as harassment, pedophilia etc.

and even in the context of rape as a war tool, my theory of FEAR still stands true. For example, when a country's military occupies another country, they do all those heinous crimes because they do not have the fear of persecution from either country's justice system. Even soldiers from the so called civilized countries indulge in these barbaric activities which only shows that when these people behave civilized, it is only due to FEAR. Only a person who has the FEAR of God in his heart will refrain from such animalistic behavior because he knows the God knows his deeds very well and he has to answer for his crimes on the day of judgement.

I can't comprehend where we have a disagreement on these points. I said the same thing you said, albeit in a more layman terms.

Are we agree on the part that non-consensual/rape is a heinous crime both religiously and even by Western standards? Right?? I think the answer is YES.

Are we agree on the part that consensual sex outside of marriage is legal by Western standards but not allowed in Islam? Right??

Did you read my post #110.

And you are contradicting yourself. On one hand you said that rape never happens but only to deliberately harm someone while on the other hand you say that sexual education will reduce rapes. So when someone wants to harm someone he already know where to inflict the pain so he doesn't need any education. Educating the murderers that killing someone is wrong? Hmmm??
I think you're right, we are spinning wheels for no reason.

I don't think sex education will reduce rape, but I think it will reduce victim blaming.

What the PM said in part was victim blaming. Alhamdulillah I am a Muslim, I observe pardah myself and hope for others to as well, the Words the PM said are 100% correct. The time he chose to say those words and the context they were said in were not.

Remember the motorway rape case a few months ago. The senior officer said women should not travel alone at night. It might be a sensible precaution considering the lowly state of law and order, but to say it when he did, was to imply the victim contributed towards her rape.

I think some education is required about when to say these things. If you had lost a leg to a landmine planted by criminals in a public park, nobody in thier right mind would say you should watch where you step.

We might later tell everyone to be cautious until the parks are checked or until the criminals are caught, but a vague statement about watching where you step would be insensitive.
 

Mujahid Memon

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I think you're right, we are spinning wheels for no reason.

I don't think sex education will reduce rape, but I think it will reduce victim blaming.

What the PM said in part was victim blaming. Alhamdulillah I am a Muslim, I observe pardah myself and hope for others to as well, the Words the PM said are 100% correct. The time he chose to say those words and the context they were said in were not.

Remember the motorway rape case a few months ago. The senior officer said women should not travel alone at night. It might be a sensible precaution considering the lowly state of law and order, but to say it when he did, was to imply the victim contributed towards her rape.

I think some education is required about when to say these things. If you had lost a leg to a landmine planted by criminals in a public park, nobody in thier right mind would say you should watch where you step.

We might later tell everyone to be cautious until the parks are checked or until the criminals are caught, but a vague statement about watching where you step would be insensitive.
Everybody say that there should be sex education but no one says what and how this sex education will cover given the context of Pakistan. In Western context sex education will tell you to ask for consent but can this apply in Pakistan? Can you ask a lady in Pakistan "I want to have sex with you, are you okay with it" with a straight face??

Second what IK said is "cause and effect" relationship rather than "victim blaming". No one justifies rapist. Even in the context of Islam, a man is not allowed to rape even if a lady is sitting fully naked in front of him but that doesn't mean that lady is innocent for being naked there.
 

Mujahid Memon

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Totally agree.

"your women are side by side you"

I'll add to that since, he isn't condoning nudity and adulatory. No nation can rise to the height of glory unless your women are side by side with you, in proper dressing for both genders(burqa for woman, and proper dressing for man), both focused on the work at hand and nothing else.
Yeah I also did not get why he posted it there. There was no contradiction between Salahuddin Ayyubi and Quaid's quotes. Maybe his dirty Western mind thinks that women can't work side by side with men without dropping their clothes. Too much jonny sins effect?
 

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