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hualushui

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The Indians on the Internet always deny that the caste system still exists in Indian society.
They always say that the caste system has disappeared and that Indians are now born equal.
This is certainly not true. We often see in the news that low castes are discriminated against and abused. A few days ago, I saw a video on TIKTOK: a person of low caste A was eating in a restaurant. Suddenly a person of high caste B came over, threw A's dinner plate on the ground, and laughed at A. A was stunned for a few seconds, without saying anything, and left the restaurant silently.
Why is the perception of high castes so inconsistent with social reality?
First of all, the caste system is a legacy of the feudal era and lags behind modern society. The recognition of the existence of the caste system makes Indians ashamed;
Second, people with high castes will always have far more rights than low castes. The government's affirmative movement caused the high caste to lose some of their rights, and the low caste to gain some of their rights. For high castes, their rights have been damaged, which is proof that the caste system does not exist. But for low castes, although they have gained some rights, they are still far behind compared with high castes.
Just like a person, who owns 100 dollars, the government takes 20 dollars away and distributes them to five poor people. Now these 5 poor people have 4 dollars. But the gap is huge from the rich who own 80 dollars, but the rich think that they give the money to the poor and the gap between the rich and the poor disappears.
The problem is, this rich man always considers the problem based on himself. He thinks that the money he has lost is enough to make up the gap between the rich and the poor in society, but the reality is not the case.
The same goes for the high castes in India

****
Who changed my title? This is not my original title
 
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Krptonite

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The Indians on the Internet always deny that the caste system still exists in Indian society.
They always say that the caste system has disappeared and that Indians are now born equal.
This is certainly not true. We often see in the news that low castes are discriminated against and abused. A few days ago, I saw a video on TIKTOK: a person of low caste A was eating in a restaurant. Suddenly a person of high caste B came over, threw A's dinner plate on the ground, and laughed at A. A was stunned for a few seconds, without saying anything, and left the restaurant silently.
Why is the perception of high castes so inconsistent with social reality?
First of all, the caste system is a legacy of the feudal era and lags behind modern society. The recognition of the existence of the caste system makes Indians ashamed;
Second, people with high castes will always have far more rights than low castes. The government's affirmative movement caused the high caste to lose some of their rights, and the low caste to gain some of their rights. For high castes, their rights have been damaged, which is proof that the caste system does not exist. But for low castes, although they have gained some rights, they are still far behind compared with high castes.
Just like a person, who owns 100 dollars, the government takes 20 dollars away and distributes them to five poor people. Now these 5 poor people have 4 dollars. But the gap is huge from the rich who own 80 dollars, but the rich think that they give the money to the poor and the gap between the rich and the poor disappears.
The problem is, this rich man always considers the problem based on himself. He thinks that the money he has lost is enough to make up the gap between the rich and the poor in society, but the reality is not the case.
The same goes for the high castes in India
No one denies the existence of this evil system, but it has been eradicated to a large extent.

You looked at Twitter and came to a conclusion. What would you have us do? Constitutionally it has been banned in all its forms, it's a legal offence to deny resources or services based on caste and its enforced quite heavy handedly. On the education front, right since primary school days caste system is derided and its evils taught. Affirmative action has given the underprivileged opportunities the common man can only dream off.

So I ask again, we had an evil system which existed for a long time which we inherited upon independence. We enacted laws against it, punish it's perpetrators and decree against it socially.

What would you have us do more to eradicate this ?

Either provide solutions or get off your high horse towards people trying to solve their problems.
 

PradoTLC

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If Hindus are in danger in India, it is because of its caste system
It is foolhardy to expect oppressed caste groups to continue to accept discrimination

Published: September 28, 2020 08:36Ashok Swain, Special to Gulf News

1.2183557-2685772917
A man rides his bicycle past volunteers of the Hindu nationalist organisation Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) taking part in Route March in Mumbai (File image)Image Credit: Reuters
ALSO IN THIS PACKAGE
Hindu nationalist groups have skilfully built a discourse that Hindus are in danger in a ‘secular’ India, thus there is a need for a reassertion of Hindu identity and making India a Hindu nation. To build this ‘Hindu Khatre mein hai’ discourse, they have been blaming the high birth rate among the Muslim population and increasing conversions to Christianity by missionaries.
These half-truths, no doubt have created an illusory vulnerability among a large section of Hindus in India even though the ever-increasing Hindu population is more than one billion and continues to be 80% of the country’s total population. Not only that, Hindus have been in total control of the economic and political power of the country since its creation in 1947.

The Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), the mother ship of Hindutva forces, has achieved remarkable success in projecting Muslims and Christians as existential threats to Hindus in India. At the same time, the Brahmin male-dominated RSS has done everything to protect and preserve the evils of the 3000 years old caste system among Hindus. The RSS is so committed to caste hierarchy that it had opposed India’s modern constitution as it had wanted Manu-Smriti to be the basis of its fundamental principles.
India has miserably failed to integrate Dalits, tribal groups, and lower caste groups into the mainstream. Many of them are increasingly feeling disillusioned and losing hope of gradual social transformation as the upper caste dominated Hindutva forces occupying the center stage in the country have reversed the process
- Prof Ashok Swain
The strong belief of the RSS in the laws of Manu does not allow it to accept India as an inclusive secular state where every citizen has certain rights irrespective of caste, religion, or gender. While it expands with the help of tokenism its social base across caste divisions for political reasons, it still does everything to preserve social segregation among Hindus and the domination of upper caste over lower caste, Dalits, and tribal population. It is even opposed to reservation for these historically oppressed groups in government jobs and educational institutions.
Though the Indian constitution bans discrimination based on caste it does not abolish the caste system. Even there are definitional differences, there is a lot of similarities between caste inequality and oppression with racial inequality and oppression. However, while the rest of the world, particularly the West feels ashamed about racial inequality in societies India is probably the only country in the world where caste-based inequality is forcefully justified in the name of religion.
A divided society
Hindu caste system is a social structure that divided different groups into four major caste categories and keeps Dalits (untouchables) and tribal groups (indigenous population) outside of it. Brahmins and other upper castes constitute less than 20% of the Hindu population in India. India’s caste system has evolved into nearly 3,000 castes and 25,000 subcastes.
As Dr. B.R. Ambedkar, the architect of India’s Constitution was very right in saying: “As long as caste in India does exist, Hindus will hardly intermarry or have any social intercourse with outsiders and if Hindus migrate to other regions on earth, Indian caste would become a world problem.” Marriages among Hindus tend to be a sanctified ritual solemnised by families, so marriage as an institution continues to strengthen the caste system. Though inter-caste marriages are allowed within Hindu Marriage Act, only 5.8% of Indian marriages were inter-caste as per the 2011 census and there is no change to the trend in the last 40 years. Even, among the Hindu diaspora marriages outside caste is rare.
A rigid caste system
Marrying outside established caste boundaries continues to remain as a dangerous taboo as it can lead to social or community shunning and in many cases inter-family/clan violence and even so-called ‘honour’ killings. As the United Nations Population Fund estimates 5000 women and girls get killed by their family members in India every year. There are many cases where lower caste men also get killed by their upper caste in-laws.

Besides marriage, the other areas which are dominated by the caste system are religious worship and food. With the rise of Hindu nationalism in India, religious places and the food habits have taken the center stage of political discourse and with it, as the National Crime Records Bureau data reveals the rate of crimes against Dalits has increased significantly.
Caste hierarchy and oppression
The violence against lower castes and Dalits have become so common in the states of Uttar Pradesh, Gujarat, and Madhya Pradesh that it does not even get media attention. This violence is most of the time associated with the victims’ caste hierarchy and dependent upon their resistance to or opposition towards accepting caste domination. Rape is often used as a weapon to continue caste oppression, and at least four Dalit women are raped every day in India. Women from tribal groups are subjected to atrocities even more.
While there has been the international condemnation of targeting minority Muslims in the early months of the Covid-19 pandemic in India, the other social group which continues to receive the wrath are Dalits, as they are usually sanitation workers and perceived to be unclean and carriers of the coronavirus.
India's caste violence
The National Dalit Movement for Justice reported a 72% increase in the attacks against Dalits during the lockdown period in April and May 2020 compared with the same two months in 2019. Dalits are being killed more by caste violence than the coronavirus. The return of Dalits and lower caste migrant workers to their villages have intensified the upper castes’ attacks on them due to increasing competition over scarce resources.
India has miserably failed to integrate Dalits, tribal groups, and lower caste groups into the mainstream. Many of them are increasingly feeling disillusioned and losing hope of gradual social transformation as the upper caste dominated Hindutva forces occupying the center stage in the country have reversed the process.

In the 21st century, it will be foolhardy to expect that these oppressed caste groups, particularly Dalits will continue to accept discrimination. Instead of creating bogeys of Islam and Christianity, India’s Hindutva forces need to look within and end the regressive caste system.
Ashok Swain is a Professor of Peace and Conflict Research, Uppsala University, Sweden.
 

hualushui

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No one denies the existence of this evil system, but it has been eradicated to a large extent.

You looked at Twitter and came to a conclusion. What would you have us do? Constitutionally it has been banned in all its forms, it's a legal offence to deny resources or services based on caste and its enforced quite heavy handedly. On the education front, right since primary school days caste system is derided and its evils taught. Affirmative action has given the underprivileged opportunities the common man can only dream off.

So I ask again, we had an evil system which existed for a long time which we inherited upon independence. We enacted laws against it, punish it's perpetrators and decree against it socially.

What would you have us do more to eradicate this ?

Either provide solutions or get off your high horse towards people trying to solve their problems.
The caste system is not an evil system, but it is a pre-modern system.
How to eliminate the caste system, as an external person, it is difficult for me to make appropriate suggestions, because even if I think it is a reasonable suggestion, it may not be suitable for Indian society.
such as,
Increasing the rate of urbanization, allowing people from the countryside to enter the city, the people in the city will have a deconstructive effect on all feudal systems, including the caste system.
industrialization. Because of the close cooperation between workers, which can break the old concept.
education. India emphasizes elite education. The Indian government invests half of its education funds in higher education, but the population of higher education is only tens of millions. And hundreds of millions of elementary school students, junior high school students, and high school students can only get the other half of the education funding. This is a very unreasonable system.
religion. India should force Hindu priests, elders and other religious figures to change their doctrines and remove the doctrine of caste inequality.
 

Krptonite

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The caste system is not an evil system, but it is a pre-modern system.
How to eliminate the caste system, as an external person, it is difficult for me to make appropriate suggestions, because even if I think it is a reasonable suggestion, it may not be suitable for Indian society.
such as,
Increasing the rate of urbanization, allowing people from the countryside to enter the city, the people in the city will have a deconstructive effect on all feudal systems, including the caste system.
industrialization. Because of the close cooperation between workers, which can break the old concept.
education. India emphasizes elite education. The Indian government invests half of its education funds in higher education, but the population of higher education is only tens of millions. And hundreds of millions of elementary school students, junior high school students, and high school students can only get the other half of the education funding. This is a very unreasonable system.
religion. India should force Hindu priests, elders and other religious figures to change their doctrines and remove the doctrine of caste inequality.
I'm actually surprised at your reply, I'd thought this to be a troll thread. You've come back with very valid points.
The caste system is not an evil system, but it is a pre-modern system.
How to eliminate the caste system, as an external person, it is difficult for me to make appropriate suggestions, because even if I think it is a reasonable suggestion, it may not be suitable for Indian society.
such as,
Increasing the rate of urbanization, allowing people from the countryside to enter the city, the people in the city will have a deconstructive effect on all feudal systems, including the caste system.
industrialization. Because of the close cooperation between workers, which can break the old concept.
education. India emphasizes elite education. The Indian government invests half of its education funds in higher education, but the population of higher education is only tens of millions. And hundreds of millions of elementary school students, junior high school students, and high school students can only get the other half of the education funding. This is a very unreasonable system.
religion. India should force Hindu priests, elders and other religious figures to change their doctrines and remove the doctrine of caste inequality.
It is an evil system, categorically been recognized as such and has existed in the Indian sub continent region for centuries. Right from our countries inception it has been derided and outlawed. Legally all steps have been taken to root out this menace.

Sadly, it still continues to exist socially. Social behavior is hard to change, but significant progress has been seen even there. We do not enjoy the benefits of central planning such as countries like China do, any progress or urbanization comes at a slow pace subject to resources. This is not to imply your suggestion was wrong, just that it happens slowly and where there is apparent need versus planning and building out according to central diktats.

You're also right about GoI approach to our education system, on this point we are in agreement, there are and have been significant efforts to address this unreasonable system. It might be slow but were are progressing (legislatively) towards a better one.

Religion remains significantly sensitive topic in our country, officially, the government cannot dictate unless it contravenes the constitution. Politics has muddled this issue to a large extent, politicians are more concerned about their voting blocks rather than social progress and this division is actively exploited for votes.

Clan and caste based thinking has been largely been relegated to marital affairs and rarely affect social order issues. That is not to detract or deny about many of the instances of caste inequality or injustice happening throughout the country, but to simply depict the current nature of this system.

With progress, better education, urbanization and social awareness coupled with government initiatives, we hope to change our populaces attitude for the better, not just legally but also individually, only then will this system die its deserved death. The people of this nation, its founders, recognized this system for what it is and laid the foundation for its eradication. The fight is still ongoing, so I humbly request you to look at this issue and the efforts to eradicate it in its entirety, rather than forming opinions from twitter posts or videos.
 

hualushui

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Sadly, it still continues to exist socially. Social behavior is hard to change, but significant progress has been seen even there. We do not enjoy the benefits of central planning such as countries like China do, any progress or urbanization comes at a slow pace subject to resources. This is not to imply your suggestion was wrong, just that it happens slowly and where there is apparent need versus planning and building out according to central diktats.
Urbanization does not necessarily lead to resource consumption. For example, India is extremely short of water, but India has a lot of precipitation, but the seasonal distribution is uneven.
India is unable to build water conservancy facilities. On the one hand, the government lacks funds, and more importantly, it cannot obtain the land needed to build the reservoir. If the rural population enters the city, the government can acquire land through redemption, exchange, etc., and then build reservoirs, roads, ditches and other facilities to increase the grain output per unit area of the land, and it can also reserve industrial and domestic water.
Many people think that cities consume more resources and energy than rural areas. This is wrong. This is a conclusion drawn under the condition that the urban living standard is much higher than the rural living standard. In fact, if the living standards in rural and urban areas are the same, with the same roads, housing, communications, and food, urban resources will consume less resources than rural areas.
We cannot allow rural people to live in poverty forever. Rural people have the right to pursue a better life.
 

Krptonite

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Urbanization does not necessarily lead to resource consumption. For example, India is extremely short of water, but India has a lot of precipitation, but the seasonal distribution is uneven.
India is unable to build water conservancy facilities. On the one hand, the government lacks funds, and more importantly, it cannot obtain the land needed to build the reservoir. If the rural population enters the city, the government can acquire land through redemption, exchange, etc., and then build reservoirs, roads, ditches and other facilities to increase the grain output per unit area of the land, and it can also reserve industrial and domestic water.
Many people think that cities consume more resources and energy than rural areas. This is wrong. This is a conclusion drawn under the condition that the urban living standard is much higher than the rural living standard. In fact, if the living standards in rural and urban areas are the same, with the same roads, housing, communications, and food, urban resources will consume less resources than rural areas.
We cannot allow rural people to live in poverty forever. Rural people have the right to pursue a better life.
Right on all points, and I agree with you on many of them, however urbanization itself is resource consuming, improperly planned it gives rise to slums and inadequate infrastructure which crumbles faster due to the sheer intensity of its usage. In this regard GoI has largely left migration to market forces and efforts have been made to integrate the rural onto the urban for a self sustaining system.
 

jamahir

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No one denies the existence of this evil system, but it has been eradicated to a large extent.
It is not been eradicated. You should read about why the Dalit movement - Bhim Army - was created. And I will mention the well-known suicide of the Dalit student Rohith Vemula.

And please read the below.

in india caste determines whom you marry, caste determines whom you vote - no matter which party - and this broad based.
This is a caste-wise listing of prospective brides and grooms on a famous Indian matrimonial site.

And post# 3 is correct about honor killings for voluntary inter-caste marriages. Actually honor killing is present even for voluntary marriages ( "love marriages" ).
 

letsrock

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The caste system is not an evil system, but it is a pre-modern system.
How to eliminate the caste system, as an external person, it is difficult for me to make appropriate suggestions, because even if I think it is a reasonable suggestion, it may not be suitable for Indian society.
such as,
Increasing the rate of urbanization, allowing people from the countryside to enter the city, the people in the city will have a deconstructive effect on all feudal systems, including the caste system.
industrialization. Because of the close cooperation between workers, which can break the old concept.
education. India emphasizes elite education. The Indian government invests half of its education funds in higher education, but the population of higher education is only tens of millions. And hundreds of millions of elementary school students, junior high school students, and high school students can only get the other half of the education funding. This is a very unreasonable system.
religion. India should force Hindu priests, elders and other religious figures to change their doctrines and remove the doctrine of caste inequality.
It is an evil system.
Eliminating brahmins (the identity) is the best way to eliminate caste system.
urbanization in india is a product of colonialism and later caste system - it will not have transformative effect - it actually accenteuates it - there are many "colonies" in india where rents are given only to vegetarians (a proxy for high caste).
There are really no "doctrines" per se in hinduism. but very strong practices.
 

masterchief_mirza

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I've said it many times, would my easterly neighbours care to take note for their own betterment: the Hindu rashtra is causing the greatest damage to hinduism and Hindus.
 

Krptonite

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It is not been eradicated. You should read about why the Dalit movement - Bhim Army - was created. And I will mention the well-known suicide of the Dalit student Rohith Vemula.

And please read the below.



This is a caste-wise listing of prospective brides and grooms on a famous Indian matrimonial site.

And post# 3 is correct about honor killings for voluntary inter-caste marriages. Actually honor killing is present even for voluntary marriages ( "love marriages" ).
I was referring to the legalese since that is where the eradication of this system has been initiated. Constitutionally speaking, it has no place other than affirmative action in our political structure.

I've also acknowledged it's existence in social life, especially in marital relationships. Intercaste marriage remains a sensitive issue with many violent incidents associated with them. This is expected to subside with better urbanization, educational systems and upward mobility among the poorer strata of our society.


This system and the ills associated with it exist undeniably in our country, I'm positing that efforts to eradicate it do too and the onus for it is not only on the government but also on our citizens.
 

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