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Ideas to improve R&D in Pakistan

Al_Muhannad

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Speaking of a 100 years ago. It was in part the inefficient and protectionism of the guilds in the Ottoman Empire that shut out innovation and over the course of 200 years led to Ottomans going from being innovative leaders to buying everything from Europeans.

Elites will do what is in their interest, and that is just what they do, it’s human nature. But a state needs to support a culture that serves the best interests of society.

If we are to do research it has to be on how to bring about this culture of service to the collective benefit. This seems to be the dividing line between competitive and incompetence societies.
The ottoman thing is partially true. Usmanis and Mughals had one thing common in them. Hadharami and Ayashi. An interesting case of innovation is how Al-gebra was invented. Without any state help, just a local moulvi doing mathematics. Therefore, I mentioned the mechanism to localize the knowledge. Europeans localized knowledge from Muslim world. Most noticeable thing is THE PAPER which interestingly muslims localized from chinese. In modern day world, India has this bank-loan systems which push Not-so-IIT students into US education systems and when in US those students pay back the loans via silicon valley internships which pay better than european full-time jobs. So, these students get good jobs, and in return create the IT/Software market that exists in India.
Another reason is the constant warfare in muslim lands that did not let the culture of innovation develop. Either internal rebellions/rift or external such as mongols and crusaders.

For the elite part, I believe it has failed the society to a miserable level. I would suggest looking at the eurpean elite during the dark ages when Muslim world was shining. Marco Polo was caught stealing the then Trade secrets but hey China is bad for doing it. But, I may not know enough about it so do not take my words at face value. But, I do believe we need to create our society from the grounds up.
 

Al_Muhannad

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The point of the internship isn't to create IP directly. The point is to give students a foot in the door of some industry. This facilitates employment. Here in the west you often end up working for whoever you intern with. And yes when I said coop like Canada I meant paid internship that lasts at least 3 months.
I know. But in germany I have seen working-student jobs (part-time) act as cheap labor and in return they get quite a significant experience. And most likely, it does not lead to full-time job. What I meant in my previous post was to have students be actively engaged in Actual Research Projects for a major duration of their studies. Everything from semester projects to part-time jobs to Thesis.
 

SQ8

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That is not the only reason. We lack ambitions. People after getting PhD, Sarakri Naukri, one successful shop, just stop growing, as they think they have achieved what cd be or what there forefathers couldn't. Bcz we are already at the top w.r.t our surroundings. We lack self-motivation and agitation which is vital to grow. It is more like shackling ourselves bcz of our narrow vision.

The main reason is lack of reference. If we visit conferences, meet successful people, and see how developed nation people continue professional development even in jobs, then our standard will rise and we can progress.
That is not the only reason. We lack ambitions. People after getting PhD, Sarakri Naukri, one successful shop, just stop growing, as they think they have achieved what cd be or what there forefathers couldn't. Bcz we are already at the top w.r.t our surroundings. We lack self-motivation and agitation which is vital to grow. It is more like shackling ourselves bcz of our narrow vision.

The main reason is lack of reference. If we visit conferences, meet successful people, and see how developed nation people continue professional development even in jobs, then our standard will rise and we can progress.

Difference between Pakistan and Israel right there. Im sure there will be the usual suspects celebrating this cuttthroat culture but the result after 70 years is plain to see.
7679BD08-CCAE-413F-8BB3-BBF750D8CA6C.jpeg
 

FuturePAF

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The ottoman thing is partially true. Usmanis and Mughals had one thing common in them. Hadharami and Ayashi. An interesting case of innovation is how Al-gebra was invented. Without any state help, just a local moulvi doing mathematics. Therefore, I mentioned the mechanism to localize the knowledge. Europeans localized knowledge from Muslim world. Most noticeable thing is THE PAPER which interestingly muslims localized from chinese. In modern day world, India has this bank-loan systems which push Not-so-IIT students into US education systems and when in US those students pay back the loans via silicon valley internships which pay better than european full-time jobs. So, these students get good jobs, and in return create the IT/Software market that exists in India.
Another reason is the constant warfare in muslim lands that did not let the culture of innovation develop. Either internal rebellions/rift or external such as mongols and crusaders.

For the elite part, I believe it has failed the society to a miserable level. I would suggest looking at the eurpean elite during the dark ages when Muslim world was shining. Marco Polo was caught stealing the then Trade secrets but hey China is bad for doing it. But, I may not know enough about it so do not take my words at face value. But, I do believe we need to create our society from the grounds up.

I really hope the government/CPEC authority, whomever gives entrepreneurs real free hand in the SEZs. Innovative companies can get a chance to form outside of the structures set up by the elites and the politicians. I don’t expect politicians (outside of a few) to foster innovation; because without the cultural shift aforementioned, they won’t be decisive where it counts. There is a famous quote; “Politics is the art of postponing a decision until it is no longer relevant”.
 
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Al_Muhannad

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I really hope the government/CPEC authority, whomever gives entrepreneurs real free hand in the SEZs. Innovative companies can get a change to form outside of the structures set up by the elites and the politicians. I don’t expect politicians (outside of a few) to be foster innovation; because without the cultural shift aforementioned, they won’t be decisive where it counts. There is a famous quote; “Politics the art of postponing a decision until it is no longer relevant”.
CPEC SEZs are too little too late, and kind of not-so-relevant. Again, I would highly recommend a kind of structure that manages innovation across the board country-wide. Like a research manger of transport making plans to construct electric locomotives. France in recent years has built a strong leadership in locomotive sector. Similarly for agriculture. I saw a post saying Netherlands became the world leader in agriculture. Just compare the output of Punjab and Sindh to Netherlands.
SEZs need to built and run like that and with a long term (30-year), medium term (10-year) and short term (5-year) plans. Just my humble opinion. only Allah Pak knows better. All this might very well be B*****T coming from a random account.

For the elite, I do not any kind of hope from our anglicised ruling elite. Real fun would begin when a Han-friendly elite appears that does not submit to Anglosaxons. There was a guy (dazzler/bratva or etc) here on PDF who mentioned that PAF taught PLAAF to write the code for HUDs in 80s or 90s. This shows that we have had ample opportunities but we threw them away. We have people like Hoodboy who I believe are good scientists but are missionaries of american church of freedom. Chinese saw it and took steps to bypass this. Now, their students who study abroad bring the knowledge back minus the propaganda. Europeans did the same with muslims scientists when copying their work. The christianization of Rumi, Hafez, and Saadi works is another example.

Anyways, I would stop here. Otherwise, this rant would derail the topic. Sorry.
 

FuturePAF

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CPEC SEZs are too little too late, and kind of not-so-relevant. Again, I would highly recommend a kind of structure that manages innovation across the board country-wide. Like a research manger of transport making plans to construct electric locomotives. France in recent years has built a strong leadership in locomotive sector. Similarly for agriculture. I saw a post saying Netherlands became the world leader in agriculture. Just compare the output of Punjab and Sindh to Netherlands.
SEZs need to built and run like that and with a long term (30-year), medium term (10-year) and short term (5-year) plans. Just my humble opinion. only Allah Pak knows better. All this might very well be B*****T coming from a random account.

For the elite, I do not any kind of hope from our anglicised ruling elite. Real fun would begin when a Han-friendly elite appears that does not submit to Anglosaxons. There was a guy (dazzler/bratva or etc) here on PDF who mentioned that PAF taught PLAAF to write the code for HUDs in 80s or 90s. This shows that we have had ample opportunities but we threw them away. We have people like Hoodboy who I believe are good scientists but are missionaries of american church of freedom. Chinese saw it and took steps to bypass this. Now, their students who study abroad bring the knowledge back minus the propaganda. Europeans did the same with muslims scientists when copying their work. The christianization of Rumi, Hafez, and Saadi works is another example.

Anyways, I would stop here. Otherwise, this rant would derail the topic. Sorry.

It’s not about Western or Eastern friendly. AQ khan went to the west and sacrificed it all to come back and serve. Many amongst the elites are too comfortable to realize with each year the country’s future gets limited more and more. It’s life and death and future generations may curse us as many curse those from decades past for their decisions leading to squandered opportunities. We should take from amongst the best skilled and willing to serve.

For example, In the Jewish diaspora, people come from all over, and if they’ve got the skills they are respected on merit.
 

Al_Muhannad

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It’s not about Western or Eastern friendly. AQ khan went to the west and sacrificed it all to come back and serve. Many amongst the elites are too comfortable to realize with each year the country’s future gets limited more and more. It’s life and death and future generations may curse us as many curse those from decades past for their decisions leading to squandered opportunities. We should take from amongst the best skilled and willing to serve.

For example, In the Jewish diaspora, people come from all over, and if they’ve got the skills they are respected on merit.
The first and foremost thing we need is a justice based opportunity system. For example, just the see the elite class going to MIT/Stanford on LinkedIn, and see what type of jobs they do after graduating. Then compare them with an average non-IIT/BIT indian student doing jobs in Tech companies. You would be amazed at the waste of so huge resources for so few people on so meaningless degrees. Israel provides equal opportunities to its citizens except arabs (which I guess are not really Israeli citizens). Once you have a functional system, people will come from across the globe. Its always that way for last 1000 years. It is only the system that keeps an average Pakistani pinned down. Everything that happens between now and till the time we have such a system is a jugar, I would say. It was only recently our elite like fawad chaudary started making some phony claims for RISCV processor in Pakistan.

I have no doubt about the bright future of Pakistan. It is the injustices that are done with Pakistan that make my blood boil. You would be amazed at the work Pakistanis can do once you give them the right tools and environment.
 

The Accountant

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We all agree that very little research and development is done in Pakistan, and I was thinking how we could improve that. I had a few ideas I wanted to share with you and get your thoughts.

1. Regulation - We need regulation that ties the university status of each university to research. There should not be any universities in our country not creating PHD students. There perhaps should be a percentage of the intake that should be going onto PHD studies, although this must be kept very small, we want to encourage quality not quantity.

2. Funding. Govt must be willing to fund cost of living of phD students in STEM subjects or the type of research we consider required to national interest. Students and professors should be able to put together funding requests and state why they think thier work is beneficial to society and why society should cover their cost of living.. This could also cover arts, but it will cover it in a level proportional to national requirement, not on desires of students.

3. University-industry links. I want to see this in three areas.

a. Govt should give tax refunds of 50% of any amount a business contributes to a university for research and development. So if Malik Riaz gives 10 billion pkr to a university for research, then he can expect 5 billion refunded from his taxes. There should be checks and balances to ensure this money goes into phd costs, not towards university profits, or buying land and building hostels and gyms.

b. I'd like to see industry work in collaboration with universities to do their own research. If your company wants to do research, work with university professors. The work could be part funded by you, part funded by the university, and if they can make a case for it, govt could contribute up to 20% of the cost. It'd be win win for the universities who get part funded research, the companies who get part funded research and the state who gets r&D on the cheap.

c. Employability scores for university graduates on a course by course basis. Also industry approval of courses or faculties. This would encourage universities to revise their content and keep it relevant. it would also mean students could have a better idea of the quality of the education they're paying for, because ultimately they want it to lead to employment and finally it would benefit companies because they would have graduates who are more capable of hitting the ground running.

I could do a whole other topic on employability of graduates and the future of higher education and industry, but for now this is what i want to focus on.

What do you think?
I was thinking to write on the same topic since long but unfortunately was not able to write due to busy schedule.

You nailed it bro and this is done need of the day.

However one aspect we missed that bulk of production if comprises if labor force so with R&F there is strong need of making technical institutes to covert unskilled into semi skilled work force.

Furthermore we need to establish special economic zones where the proposed research centers can collabrate.

For example in sialkot R&D center of sports goods should be established.

In balochistan R&D centers and technical institutes of coper and mining related activities should be established.

Similarly in karachi fishing and marine related other institutes should be established.
 

The Accountant

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@313ghazi @Goenitz @JamD

Guys all three of you are correct in their own plans however we need to understand R&D is not just limited to new technologies.

R&D can be as much commercial as someone want it to be. No one is stopping to research on potentital market of fish export.

One of my colleague an old chartered accountant funded a research on an illiterate fish farm to raise fishes to a certain protein level acceptable by quality standards of Singapore.

As everyone here is showing displeasure over organizational systems in the organizations but there is not single book or research study in which we teaches about our own culture.

The books we study in our universities are all borrowed from western writers. How are we suppose to make corrections if we are not studying whats going on within our industry ?

So we need a hybrid approach where we bring in technical institutes and research organizations focused on commercial research relevant to our own problems and our own solutions
 

Goenitz

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Guys all three of you are correct in their own plans however we need to understand R&D is not just limited to new technologies.

R&D can be as much commercial as someone want it to be. No one is stopping to research on potentital market of fish export.

One of my colleague an old chartered accountant funded a research on an illiterate fish farm to raise fishes to a certain protein level acceptable by quality standards of Singapore.
Bro, I have already pointed out that we need to focus on agriculture products and to increase its productivity in your thread.
That needs research and I am all for it. Do you know we waste tomatoes in off-season.? Why don't we make puree or or can dry them? These things govt/industry patronage and research.

However, I was saying we need more industry related curriculum for graduates and masters to increase employability. Graduates should learn commercial skills in curriculum.

But We don't need more researchers but executioners/planners. Yes, to localise western research we need faculty even beyond PhD level (in experience) , like fish breeding will be different in EU than Pak. Similarly, crop cultivation.

Lastly, I argued creating a localised and micro environment as @Al_Muhannad said. Centrally controlled institution's productivity falls. Else, I am not against any organisation.

These are learning stages. You can easily evaluate that we fail at application. Yes, we need innovation and creation but we need more lower tier personals. The biggest part as you quoted is to make common understand, then inciting the will to apply. That was also the thing I discussed with @SQ8 . I think a combination of Bloom and Maslow .
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nahtanbob

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Just to explore your point further.

I understand what you are saying, but why should one step follow the other, surely a well executed step can create unforeseen benefits.

Israel's start-up industry started in the 1990 I think, at that time it had a population of less then 5 million, and a per capita income far below what it is today. I don't think it had the mature industrial base to take advantage, but creating that start-up eco-system allowed it to expand it's technological base and generate revenue in other ways, contributing to the overall economy. Similarly other countries have invested in totally new sectors which paid off in the long term.

you completely ignore the influx of million Soviet Jews - a lot of them were insanely world class scientists and engineers
 

peagle

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you completely ignore the influx of million Soviet Jews - a lot of them were insanely world class scientists and engineers

I have not ignore them, they were part of that eco-system. My point was to cover one aspect raised in a post by someone else. it wasn't a comprehensive analysis.

If we truly were to concentrate on one single point then the $200 billion plus in American, plus other aid made the biggest contribution to all developments in Israel.

Give any group in the world proper education and over $200 billion dollars in aid, with access to technology and that nation will advance itself in 50 years. that is the crux of it.

my point was merely expanding on someone else's point.
 

EternalMortal

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I think you missed my point, which was you even if by a snap of your fingers you can suddently generate lots of amazing research but if it has nowhere (actual industry) to go at best it will fuel innovation abroad and at worst be useless.

The YOZMA program was for exactly that: a program for funding & incubating startups thereby kickstarting industry. It wasn't for R&D. You might be thinking of TALPIOT which was more R&D focused
 

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