• Monday, July 13, 2020

IAF to Buy 83 more Tejas fighters from HAL instead of foreign jets, CDS Rawat says

Discussion in 'Indian Defence Forum' started by khansaheeb, May 15, 2020.

  1. Baba_Yaga

    Baba_Yaga FULL MEMBER

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    Our misfortune? :lol: Is Pakistan in a parallel universe that it hasn't been affected by the coronavirus ? You need to have money to make these companies an offer they cant refuse. This deal was cancelled by us because of lack of funds and to generate local jobs. Now if India doesn't have enough funds, Pakistan, with an economy 10 times smaller and a huge IMF debt probably doesn't even have a penny in the pocket. Sure, by all means, increase your defense budget from the current 4% to 8%, only makes things better for us in the long run.

    Besides, I doubt the cancellation of this deal will have an affect you were hoping for. It was almost a given that Rafale would get the contract. US and Russian companies didn't have much hope anyway. The only country this really affects relations with would be France. We will still be buying transport aircrafts, anti submarine aircraft etc from the US, S400s and helicopters from Russia. Basically nothing has changed for them. They were never getting the single engine fighter jet deal and now that has just been confirmed. In fact, this actually increases their chances of getting a 5th gen jet deal in the near future.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2020
  2. Archie

    Archie SENIOR MEMBER

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    I remember that a few years ago, U guys paid Turkey to upgrade some 46 Block 15 F16s to block 40/42
    This was at a time when u were inducting 18 block 52s

    If it was easy to update the older model F16s to Block 50/52s , I am sure PAF would have done that, unless their were some restrictions imposed by US on Turkey regarding the MLU
     
  3. Tumba

    Tumba FULL MEMBER

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    but will US allow PAF F-16 V upgrade?

    In my opinion never say never but I think India exerts this much influence on US that this V upgrade will never happen, although USA might allow it through Turkey but currently Turkey is in hot waters against USA.

    Viper upgrade with Aim-120D that will be a potent combination but unlikely PAF will get its hands on that though.
     
  4. ziaulislam

    ziaulislam ELITE MEMBER

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    Eh? What are you smoking ..PAF doesnt operate any block 40/42 aircarfts..
    Only b52 standard and 13 ADF versions

    PAF isnt hoping b72 upgrades ..that isnt expected..if it comes its a bonus but not in the plans..
     
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  5. mig25

    mig25 FULL MEMBER

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    This is where most Pakistanis fail to understand this move. Tejas is a platform and not a plane alone. While this news claims we will not import airplanes, its very possible for India to import state-of-the-art sub-systems that can be integrated on this platform quite easily.
    With this move, we don't need to import entire airplanes but only sub-systems and weaponry. The threat level only increases if India does achieve this considering how modern air combat is way different than one-on-one dog fights. India will end up having sophisticated aircraft in large numbers.
     
  6. Archie

    Archie SENIOR MEMBER

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    Can u share proof of the same
    Coz as per PAF official site
    They have 58 Block 40/42 and 18 Block 50/52
     
  7. Shabi1

    Shabi1 FULL MEMBER

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    Which is same for the JF-17 Thunder, hence there already is a counter for that and infact India needs to do some catching up on this front. Once operational the JF-17 Block-3s would be PAFs most potent fighter and they would have the PL-15 most potent AA missiles in the inventory, whereas the Block-2s MLU program is in effect as well. 2025-2030 PAF wants the Azm fighter to be new tip of the spear.


    Turkish program is independent of US and not Lockheed Martin linked, they are making everything them self, even developing new AA missiles as these upgrades would mean end of support from original manufacturer. There are third party upgrades programs for F-4s and F-5s. Over time F-16s in PAF inventory could end up with a similar fate as Mirages.

    US cares about money at the moment Pakistan is not under any sanctions from the US and can buy as long as it pays the full amount for it which is what they have done for AH-1Zs. They say Pakistan can have them by paying the offset amount from itself as well. Bottleneck is Pakistan claims US owes it a substantial amount of reimbursement for the coalition and logistics support it gave for US transit of hardware to Afghanistan as well as contribution for war on terror. US never reimburses in cash it asks to buy weapons against the owed amount and prices are often inflated to benefit local industry. Hence the stalemate, US is still willing to transfer the AH-1Zs as long as they are paid by Pakistan. We still have training programs as well as maintenance contracts working with them, US still maintains defense related engagement with Pakistan but not being advertised. US personal are also still in Pakistan keeping tabs on F-16s since they were supplied with DRFM technology and they don't want it leaked. Without the subsidy in open tender US sourcing of weapons lose out to other alternatives.

    With upgrades the Block number doesnt change. Despite being identical to the Blk-52s in terms of radar and avionics for MLU upgrades a Mx designation or simply M is added. Pakistan's F-16s that have received the upgrades are F-16AM/BM Block-15 OCU/ADF designated and if they go through the Viper upgrade program there still wont be any change in Block number.
    http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article2.html
    http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article14.html

    No urgency for upgrades yet as last upgrades were not too long ago. And will escalate Indian's threat perception forcing a counter purchase. So both sides will end up spending more.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2020
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  8. Tauren Paladin

    Tauren Paladin FULL MEMBER

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    The reality is India's economy has collapsed and cannot afford state of the art western fighter jets.
     
  9. mig25

    mig25 FULL MEMBER

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    It's not. Pakistan still has not shown what it can do independently on the JF-17. Even modifying the current structure like making a trainer, or any other change has not be made by Pakistan independently. Pakistan does not have test environments for any major changes. Even overhaul had to be done in China. If i'm not mistaken you still are not manufacturing a 100% of the airframe also. The catching up is actually on Pakistan's side.

    So even with the JF-17, you are fully dependent on China for upgrades and sub-systems. We are not!
     
  10. Fighting Falcon 01

    Fighting Falcon 01 FULL MEMBER

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    So you are implying that you can make 100 percent of Tejas airframe in your country without exporting the materials required???Also tell me this tejas uses AMERICAN engine and ISRAEL radar and avionics so how are you not dependent on these countries for tejas?? We have more than 100 JF 17s and block 3 is already flying so its INDIA which has to do the catch up thing...... you can say this when your airforce is flying more than 100 tejas ..... don't act like DODO is LM or BOEING deep down you know you can't make more than 10 tejas a year.
    You are also dependent on others for upgrading Tejas with new engine or radar so don't act like india is US and Tejas is Raptor
     
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  11. mig25

    mig25 FULL MEMBER

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    Can you show where Pakistan has made any changes structurally to Jf-17? to either improve something or to add something new? Do you even have the infrastructure or expertise to do it with studies showing how such changes could affect aerodynamic profile? India makes the Tejas, Made the trainer and Made the Naval LCA - infact over engineering the landing gear. It added Levcon for example on the Naval variant. Studies for each change is available on the public domain. Until you can make such changes on your own, or even manufacture the airframe a 100% or overhaul by yourself, Jf-17 is a plane not a platform.
    Yes we use an American engine. If in the future the kaveri is mature - guess what India will fit it, test it and refine it on her own. We dont depend on another country to fit it. Same goes to any other sub-system. That is the point I was emphasizing in my post. Somebody here said Jf-17 is the same - truly, it's not!
     
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  12. Shabi1

    Shabi1 FULL MEMBER

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    Going to quote your previous post
    "This is where most Pakistanis fail to understand this move. Tejas is a platform and not a plane alone. While this news claims we will not import airplanes, its very possible for India to import state-of-the-art sub-systems that can be integrated on this platform quite easily.
    With this move, we don't need to import entire airplanes but only sub-systems and weaponry."

    JOINT FIGHTER-17 is a JOINT project and we are pretty clear on it and no shame in accepting that we dont have the design and test facilities ready thats why China handles airframe and flight systems part we give them full credit for it. Even for the upcoming Azm fighter the PAF Air Chief has stated China will be contracted for the airframe design and flight systems as they have better facilities for it and can do it better, cheaper and faster. End result matter and achieved in least resources and time.

    What Pakistan does best is Project definition, management and systems integration which are the points Im quoting you for and Pakistan has had a good record in this aspect. JF-17 software, weapons and avionics integration is done in house in Pakistan choosing the best available off the shelf suppliers and acquiring rights to manufacture for smooth supply chain.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas
    FYI and the assistance is substantial because of the price tag for it.
    "Project definition commenced in October 1987 with France's Dassault-Breguet Aviation as consultants. Dassault-Breguet were to assist in the design and systems integration of the aircraft, with 30 top-flight engineers reported to have flown to India to act as technical advisers to IADA, in exchange for $100m / ₹560 crore (equivalent to ₹56 billion or US$790 million in 2019), this phase was completed in September 1988.[27][28]"
     
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  13. undercover JIX

    undercover JIX SENIOR MEMBER

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    Bhai log serious mat lo... apna Bippin hai...

    Tejas to beat Rafale, F-21? IAF switching to LCA, says Bipin Rawat

    Tejas to beat Rafale, F-21? IAF switching to LCA, says Bipin Rawat
    Rawat said induction of Tejas jets will help India emerge as a key defence exporter

    Web Desk May 15, 2020 11:07 IST
    [​IMG](File) The Israeli Derby missile being test-fired from a Tejas | PIB

    The Indian Air Force's long-delayed plan to buy over 100 foreign-designed fighters has made little progress in the past two decades. The latest iteration of the plan came in April 2018, when the Indian Air Force formally launched a process to buy 114 fighters in a deal estimated to be worth around $15 billion.

    The Indian Air Force was also simultaneously negotiating with HAL to buy 83 units of the indigenously designed Tejas fighter at an estimated cost of $6 billion. The Indian Air Force had already ordered 40 Tejas jets from HAL.

    On Thursday, Chief of Defence Staff General Bipin Rawat indicated that the Indian Air Force was “switching” to the Tejas in place of foreign options.

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    In an interview to Bloomberg, Rawat said, “The Indian Air Force is switching that [order for foreign fighters] to the LCA. The IAF is saying, I would rather take the indigenous fighter, it is good.”

    Rawat argued that the induction of additional Tejas fighters will help India emerge as a key exporter of defence equipment, citing the "relatively low price" of the jets.

    Rawat described the proposed move to buying indigenous Tejas fighters as a "shift to start using locally made weaponry". Rawat was quoted by Bloomberg as saying, "The defence forces will be using a lot more domestically produced goods, and there is an understanding there may be some quality issues in the beginning, but these will be improved."

    Rawat told Bloomberg, "The artillery guns, air defence systems and radars will all be indigenous systems as well. We are doing well with artillery guns and in air defence systems. We are also looking at ammunition manufacturing in our country in a very big way.”

    A possible switch to the Tejas in place of foreign fighters would be considered a major change in priority for the Indian Air Force. Seven aircraft were in contention for the contract for 114 fighters. These included a customised version of the US-designed F-16 called the F-21 and the French Dassault Rafale. In 2015, the Narendra Modi government cancelled a tender to buy 126 Rafale jets and instead opted for an outright purchase of 36 Rafale fighters from France.

    Interestingly, in 2017, it was reported that the Indian Air Force had complained that the Tejas in its current configuration was "far behind" competitors like the F-16 and the Swedish Gripen. The Indian Air Force complained about parameters such as poor aerial endurance and weapons load and higher maintenance costs of the Tejas.

    The 83 Tejas jets the Indian Air Force is buying will be of an improved MK1A configuration, which will have more capable electronics, radar and air-to-air refuelling capability. In addition, the DRDO is working on an advanced version of the Tejas, which was initially called the Tejas Mk2. In 2019, the Tejas MK2 project was renamed the Medium Weight Fighter. The Medium Weight Fighter will have design enhancements, a higher-thrust engine and more weapons carriage capability. However, the Medium Weight Fighter is expected to fly only by 2022.


    In 2018, the Indian Air Force reportedly committed to buying 201 Tejas MK2 fighters if it met performance requirements. If such an order materialised, it would mean the Indian Air Force would have a total fleet of 324 Tejas jets.

    While the Tejas is considered an indigenous fighter, many of its core systems are of foreign origin. The current Tejas variants use a General Electric F404 engine, while the Medium Weight Fighter will have the F414 engine from the same company. In addition, Tejas uses a British ejection seat and an Israeli-origin radar. The Tejas is also equipped with Russian and Israeli air-to-air missiles.
    https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2...21-iaf-switching-to-lca-says-bipin-rawat.html


     
  14. Nasr

    Nasr FULL MEMBER

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    I believe that this news is an indication that hindia does not have the economic clout, nor the stability it once touted (being the largest importer of foreign weapons), anymore. It is becoming increasingly evident that hindia has lost its steam, if there ever was one to begin with. Numerous western economic analysts have expressed their doubts over the veracity of hindia's GDP numbers. It now seems, the hype has blown over and Covid-19 Pandemic has exposed yet another faux economic power. 2020 maybe the worst year since WW2, but at least it has exposed many hidden skeletons of liar, con-artist and hustler states around the world. America, Britain, France, Israel and India (hindia) to name a few!!!
     
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  15. Path-Finder

    Path-Finder ELITE MEMBER

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    the bset fighter in the world.
     
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