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IAF pilots to evaluate Boeing's F-18 warplanes

Awesome

RETIRED MOD
Mar 24, 2006
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I'm not denying India's super power fantasy. I was just telling the new guy from Germany that it's not Pakistan that keeps this arms race up despite being a third world country. But it's India's regional dominance plans that keep this arms race up. We won't be dominated.
 

vnomad

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Oct 31, 2006
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And what do you base your assumption on? There is no evidence whatsoever that Pakistani pilots are superior to Indian ones. Flying is not a genetic quality so you can't bring the martial races nonsense into this argument.
Also, during war time Pak can resupply with spares, faster than india can, and build more planes to replace lost ones :) which india can't even on the ground.
An Indo-Pak war will not last months allowing you to build new planes.

Considering LCA is a failure!
And pray what do you base your statement on?
 

vnomad

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Don't kid yourself with age and size, both the A/Bs and C/Ds will be avionically on par with each other - both aircraft will carry AN/APG-68(V9). Tell me this though, what chance does a fighter as large as the Su-30MKI have over Pakistani skies if it has to deal with closely linked low-altitude fighters armed with JHMCS/WVRAAM combo as well as BVRAAM backed Erieye? It does not matter if Su-30MKI is a mini-AWACS - because at the end of the day an AWACS will need protection from enemies.
I was actually thinking in terms of shelf life. How long are the F-16A/Bs designed to fly?

MiG-35 is a new version of MiG-29, there will be key differences - it is like the F-16C/D and F-16A/B; at the end of the day the IAF will have to construct new infrastructure for the MiGs due to new technology. Not to mention the fact that the IAF will have to build additional infrastructure to maintain additional MiGs. With regards to the Hornet, it is entirely new to the IAF maintenance and doctrine line - the IAF has NEVER operated an American fighter jet - let alone the Hornet series. It will take the IAF longer than 5 years to induct 45 F/A-18E/Fs; the best case scenario would be 3-4 years setting up the infrastructure and receiving the initial batch, and another 3-4 years in receiving the rest. That is a minimum of six years, and with the IAF's track record - it will take a lot longer than six years.
I haven't understood the reasoning behind your statement. Aircraft are inducted in batches. The infrastructure required to inducted the first batch of say twelve aircraft will take 4-5 years to build? Any links to back yourself up? All this sound like speculation.

The budget hike will also have to deal with the maintenance of the incredibly expensive Flanker, a very large navy that has lots of acquisitions, the IAF's maintenance costs to keep the aircraft it has in service - it all drains down. What would depend is how much the Indian gov't is willing to allocate for future acquisitions, i.e seperate funds. To get the Indian gov't approval would take the IAF YEARS - like the BAe Hawk deal? Or the IN Scorpene deal?
The incredibly expensive Flanker? The size to budget ratio for the IAF and the IA is better than that of the PAF and PA. The Indian Armed Forces have already been allocated a budget for a ten year modernization plan.

Then provide the source.
By all means.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/03/mirage-2000s-withdrawn-as-indias-mrca-fighter-competition-changes/index.php
Here the quote-
Dassault has reportedly assured India that its extensive Mirage repair and servicing facilities set up by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited at Bangalore would require only 'limited modification' to accommodate the Rafale, given its commonalities with the Mirage 2000s.

Mirage 2000s - buy them used, which seems to be what the IAF wants to do now.
To tide over the numbers maybe.
India might have four times the budget, but India also has to maintain an army which is twice the size of Pakistan's, an air force which is three times the size of Pakistan's, and a Navy which is five times the size. Maintenance costs drain up a lot of Indian Gov't's annual funds, not to mention logistical costs (due to India's large geographic size). So at the end of the day the Indian military does not end up with a lot to spend on additional procurements, and must request additional gov't funding through the MoD.
I've mentioned the modernization plan.

Pakistan's defence budget is spent on maintenance, logistics and operations; for acquisitions, the gov't must approve additional financing. So while Pakistan's budget is around 3.5bn USD to 4bn USD, if you add the annual payments for fighter planes, tanks, submarines, ships and other weapon systems, the defence expenditure is at around at least 5bn USD a year. As the military procures more advanced weapons that are more expensive to maintain; as well as strengthening its logistical set-up and training - then you will see expenditure go up to $6bn USD to $7bn USD a year. However you may count that overall expenditure as a total amount - i.e a mix of Pakistani and external funds.
$5 billion. Out of a total budget of $20 billion. That's a 'tad' big wouldn't you say.

If worse comes to worse with regards to IAF's procurements (i.e IAF procuring a 4.5 generation fighter), then the PAF would seriously consider a squadron (or two) of Rafales or Eurofighters. Back in the late 1960s, the Mirage III purchase was considered incredibly expensive, but nonetheless the PAF procured 24 machines.
Fact remains that the IAF can afford it while the PAF cannot. 24 machines with all the logistics and infrastructure you were telling me about.
Which machine do you think the PAF will go in for? The Rafale, Typhoon or a large number of Gripens?
 

Awesome

RETIRED MOD
Mar 24, 2006
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The IAF's decision making process is not an efficient one. It relies heavily on its surplus of money and is quite wasteful. It knows that if it makes a mistake, it can bank on the money to buy its way out.

But time is money too. And the more time we get out of IAF's inefficiency, what is unaffordable today would be affordable tomorrow as the economy improves.
 

Contrarian

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Oct 23, 2006
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yes, but dont u think what is unaffordable for India today( and im talking the numbers...buying 200 more a/c's is unaffordable) will become affordable tomorrow as our economy too improves and at a much faster rate too!
 

Awesome

RETIRED MOD
Mar 24, 2006
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Yeah but what do you see being affordable to India? Technology would take its time. India tried its hand at spending money on technology, with the LCA. It's a blundering failure because its just not going to be inducted. The IAF even isn't so upbeat about it.

Basically India in the future is going to have plenty of Su-30s and one more new plane, either the F-18 or the new Mig29s. They still make it good since that combo restricts the PAF, even with the JF-17, new F-16s and the J-10s . But its nothing like the advantage IAF has today.
 

Muradk

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After 2020 the PAF future are stealth jets but who knows where they shall
come from. American Raptors or F-35's, maybe French Neuron's, Russian PAK-FA's
or the obvious JXX. Very interesting years ahead as brother Asim has mentioned.
May be we will get one of these from china, and the way they are working on it, you never know.
sorry the file was big so the cockpit photo is next.
 

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PakSniper

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Oct 26, 2006
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@ vnomad

"And what do you base your assumption on? There is no evidence whatsoever that Pakistani pilots are superior to Indian ones. Flying is not a genetic quality so you can't bring the martial races nonsense into this argument."

U need to search further even an Israeli AF commander who fought in the arab-israel was said thank god those pilots weren't egyptian that they were pakistan, alll u need to do is go and search, and even Chuck Yager said PAF was better, i don't have time to search right now but i will bring up the quotes from them and not from wikipedia.

But as i said before wars willn't always be determined from the air, but also from the ground. And throughout our PAF history we are capable of holding india AF back, and no doubt we can still do it, plus ur crashing just gives us more cinfidence :)
 

Kaiser

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The MRCA deal is no threat to PAF or pakistan by the time all 126 MRCA fighters are delivered to the IAF, the PAF will be well into the procurement plan for the next generation fighter.
 

Awesome

RETIRED MOD
Mar 24, 2006
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COCKPIT PHOTO
Hmmm with the first Pic, I just figured its concept art by the Chinese. They make those a looooot. Super J-10 has many too (the next probable Chinese plane IMO). But the cockpit pic looks like a photo, what's your source, Murad?
 

PakSniper

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Exactly what Kaiser said is what i'm trying to say, this will be a game back and forth, if India acquires something pak will get something to counter it better sams or Jets, this is always a back and forth game!
 

tahirkhely

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Apr 25, 2006
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Why is india buying so many planes?
isnt it sad that people are dying of hunger and poverty, yet this kind of behavior is not understandable. i think they need to free kashmir because this will put them in a normal condition. then go out for normal policy with an inductive approach. that is bigger problems first. this is just an advice.
some time ago i told everybody in this forum that just keep your eyes open when you wait for the out come of this mideast war. i mean lebanon israel war. every body mocked me and said Israel's military might will be unstoppable. and then you saw the out come. Now they even cant get out out of their barracks. i knew this before the war started. Jews are coward naturally. its written in the books of history.
same is destined to happen with the indians if they keep going like this.
 

PakSniper

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Let them go bro.. :)

their suicide will take care of things :D mods dont say anything it's true their was an article about this.

But as i said Air forces willn't always determine the outcome of war, everything plans, poltics and money and ground army, all play a big factor i'm a Big Fan of ground warfare :) hence i will spend my time their mostly :)
 

Bull

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Feb 6, 2006
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Numbers being inducted by the IAF is massive? India currently operates a massive number and with its aging birds its 32 squadron strength has already fallen to 29 and is expected to rest at 25. Pakistan is expected to go from 19 to 26.

Even if India is able to change its future a little bit, the gap between IAF and PAF would be a lot less than what it was. J-10s seem promising. I doubt they'd flank the flanker but they should be able to give a punch through the rest of the IAF's fighting force.
We are retiring the oldies as its not worth maintaing and also can afford to as we are in the process of inducting MKI,jaguars,Mig 29ks,and also are in pursuit of 40 mirages 2000 and 126-200 MRCAs.The MRCAs would take time,probably another 5-10 years,while the mirage 2000 would be inducted immediatly once agreed.
Now the numbers inducted doesnt match the ones written off and hence the fall in number of squadrons.But dont dicsount the usage of force multipliers with IAF.

Now whats PAF doing ? Its squadron strength would increase to 26 from 19 and thats without even retiring a single aircraft.So while India is retiring a similar plane,PAF continues to fly it even without a BVR.Why?bcoz they have no other choice.Other than 40 new F-16 and unknow number(200?) JF 17 there no other firm orders.J-10,grippen are all just wishfull thinking.
 

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