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IAF Mirage 2000 Upgrade Slowed By Weapons

notorious_eagle

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Thanks a lot for the article Prateek.

I must say, i am stunned after reading this article. Mirage 2000 is one aircraft in IAF's inventory that i have always envied, more so than the SU30MKI. But after reading this article, my opinion of the Mirage 2000 has changed a bit and my respect for the MIG29 has increased. It was good to read about the friendly enmity that exists between the sister squadrons, it very much reminds me off the PAF and how friendly rivalry exists between sister squadrons which i have seen first hand. They poke fun of each other, take jabs at each other, are fiercely competitive against each other but at the end of the day play for the same team and obviously the same stands for the IAF too. I envy fighter pilots, you are getting paid to do something that you love :D. No wonder all the fighter pilots i have met in my life are so full of life and joy.
 

anathema

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Hi . Good to see you back . Took a break or what ???
- just give me few minutes to upload it on hosting site
Naa ..just lurking around....too tired too fight around these days...so just going with the flow...any other articles by Masand or likewise.....any MKI articles ? ..it would be interesting to see DACT betn 29 and 30..
 

dbc

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Thanks a lot for the article Prateek.

I must say, i am stunned after reading this article. Mirage 2000 is one aircraft in IAF's inventory that i have always envied, more so than the SU30MKI. But after reading this article, my opinion of the Mirage 2000 has changed a bit and my respect for the MIG29 has increased. It was good to read about the friendly enmity that exists between the sister squadrons, it very much reminds me off the PAF and how friendly rivalry exists between sister squadrons which i have seen first hand. They poke fun of each other, take jabs at each other, are fiercely competitive against each other but at the end of the day play for the same team and obviously the same stands for the IAF too. I envy fighter pilots, you are getting paid to do something that you love :D. No wonder all the fighter pilots i have met in my life are so full of life and joy.
I'd take that narration with a dollop of salt, I can't believe the Mig-29 has better instantaneous turn rate than a pure delta or better acceleration than the Mirage. US pilots on DACT found the German Mig 29 engines less responsive and the F-16's and baby Hornets consistently out accelerated the Mig. Besides it seems the author has a thing for Pudding and his memories may be tainted by such, no real surprise the the MIG29 has better climb rate and sustained turning performance.
 

Lord Of Gondor

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Other source? there were four losses in 2004.
@DBC-Please read the article that I have posted,it was the then MoD Shri Pranav Mukherjee who said that there have been only three Mirage 2000 crashes since 2001 on Dec1/2 2004!!Please provide source for the fourth crash in 2004!!!
Edit-In my earlier post I had said that we have lost just three Mirage 2000 Fighters since 2001,there have actually been four crashes (the last one being in 07)
DBC-There have been just seven Mirage 2000 crashes since 1987/8.
 

DacterSaab

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F16 - a delta wing , Did i miss something for last 12 years . Or did PAF ordered XL version ???

Don't tempt me , but F16 is way better fighter than Mirage2000 .

Offtopic , but are you a doc by the way .
Yes My friend the F-16 is a Tailed Delta wing configuration. The Mirage is a Tailless Delta wing config. The Tejas is a Cropped Delta wing config. The f-16XL is a Compound Delta,Cranked Delta wing config.
So All these aircraft will follow more or less the same pattern of flying.
The Mig-29 is a Swept Wing Config. So it will follow a different pattern as compared to the aircraft above.
So we decided to use Mig-29 in order to gain advantage of different A2A pattern. While Mirages would have been more or less similar to PAF F-16s in A2A due to the similar wing config.
Even today if a war breaks out with PAK (heaven forbid). I'd want all my mig-29s on the western border as they will allow us to takle PAF f-16s without need of diverting Sukhois from eastern border.
Also as I said earlier It's upto the airforce to decide which aircraft will do what. So i won't be surprised to see a MKI get escorted by Mig-21s if IAF decide it's in the best interest of the mission???
Only problem is that if the MKI is escorted by any inferior jet (say mig-29 or Mirage). It's not like a tanker being escorted by to jets. Just working Along side the MKI on any mission will mean that certain capabilities of the inferior jet will be highly incremented due to MKI's ability to act as a mini-AEW&CS.
So the MKI automatically becomes the local command and control centre for the Mission fleet (viz. MKI and the inferior jet escorting it be it mirage or Mig-29 or both).
P.S. - i'm not sure if MKI can transmit co-ordinates to Mig-21, Mig-27, Jaguar, Mirage, Tejas and would be very grateful if some1 could help me out here. If MKI can't communicate with Mig-29 also it's a shame but i think it will be able to after the upgrade.
And yes i'm a Doctor.
 

AZADPAKISTAN2009

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Ah the french , just when you feel you know them they back stab you with parts till you HAVE TO BUY their new expensive toy
 

Abingdonboy

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Yes My friend the F-16 is a Tailed Delta wing configuration. The Mirage is a Tailless Delta wing config. The Tejas is a Cropped Delta wing config. The f-16XL is a Compound Delta,Cranked Delta wing config.
So All these aircraft will follow more or less the same pattern of flying.
The Mig-29 is a Swept Wing Config. So it will follow a different pattern as compared to the aircraft above.
So we decided to use Mig-29 in order to gain advantage of different A2A pattern. While Mirages would have been more or less similar to PAF F-16s in A2A due to the similar wing config.
Even today if a war breaks out with PAK (heaven forbid). I'd want all my mig-29s on the western border as they will allow us to takle PAF f-16s without need of diverting Sukhois from eastern border.
Also as I said earlier It's upto the airforce to decide which aircraft will do what. So i won't be surprised to see a MKI get escorted by Mig-21s if IAF decide it's in the best interest of the mission???
Only problem is that if the MKI is escorted by any inferior jet (say mig-29 or Mirage). It's not like a tanker being escorted by to jets. Just working Along side the MKI on any mission will mean that certain capabilities of the inferior jet will be highly incremented due to MKI's ability to act as a mini-AEW&CS.
So the MKI automatically becomes the local command and control centre for the Mission fleet (viz. MKI and the inferior jet escorting it be it mirage or Mig-29 or both).
P.S. - i'm not sure if MKI can transmit co-ordinates to Mig-21, Mig-27, Jaguar, Mirage, Tejas and would be very grateful if some1 could help me out here. If MKI can't communicate with Mig-29 also it's a shame but i think it will be able to after the upgrade.
And yes i'm a Doctor.
I believe that the MKI is able to communicate with other IAF AC- in fact datalink, IFF and other such avionics are all part of the Indian contribution on the MKI. And after Bison UPG, MIG-29UPG, Jaguar Darin UPG, Mig 27 UPG and soon Mirage UPG there should be a common data link to share info between one another. Aswell as TEJAS with this facility built in.
 

sancho

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Impossible - because Mirage lacks in pure kinematics and sheer power .

When you claim Mirage will come close to mig29 in A2A performance . How do you explain the very basic deficiency correction in Mirage .
- No engine upgrade , how come T/W got bridged .
- How will rate of climb improve
- How come sustained turn rate improved overnight , with Drag of Delta wing persisiting .
- How come instantenous rate of turn improved overnight .
- I dont see any reason for Rdy-3 to be superior , RDY-2 if - was part of package then yes comparable to Zhuk's performance . But Rdy-3 certainly not .
If any ---with addition of fly-by-wire to Mig29 , it will outclass mirage even more than it did by manual hydraulic control

And to add these are words of Ex- Air Marshal Masand .
Pilot who flew Mig29 in DACT exercise between Mig vs Mirage . And he spanked Mirage badly

If you want - I can post that 12 years old article here . Which he wrote himself with pictures of exercise .

And as far as PGM is concerned .
Mig never carried them , so after upgrade with new weapon management sysytem - If Migs carry KAB500 + KH29 A2S
KH35 Antiship , Kh31 Anti radiation missile .
I see Mig closing gap rather than other way round .
That all are only the advantages of the design, but again, the biggest advantage of the Mig over the Mirage was not the design, but the lack of HMS in WVR combats with highly maneuverable R73 and the BVR capability. The Mig had all this, while the Mirage was limited mainly to SR missiles and guns, so it shouldn't be surprising that it had less chances in air combats. The same was found out by German pilots when they got their hands on Mig 29s of the former DDR and when they tested it against their own fighters, or from other European countries. Aerodynamically, the Mig was superior to most of them and the Germans beat F16s, or F18 Hornets in dogfights. But even they said, against upgraded versions, with HMS and new missiles like the IRIS-T, latest ASRAAM, or AIM9X + the BVR combat capability the Migs won't have an advantage anymore.
Mirage 2000-5 with Topsight HMS and MICA (no matter which version) will have a very deadly combo now as well in WVR combats, in BVR not only the new radar and real BVR missiles will play a role, but the RCS as well.
 

sancho

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I believe that the MKI is able to communicate with other IAF AC- in fact datalink, IFF and other such avionics are all part of the Indian contribution on the MKI. And after Bison UPG, MIG-29UPG, Jaguar Darin UPG, Mig 27 UPG and soon Mirage UPG there should be a common data link to share info between one another. Aswell as TEJAS with this facility built in.
The upgraded fighters gets new French IFF transponders to increase the interoperability between the Russian and western fighters/aircrafts in IAF. Tejas and MMRCAs are also expected to get Indian data link systems, FGFA is even planned with SATCOM, so there is clearly a higher focus on linking all aircrafts and capabilities with each other.
 

anathema

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I'd take that narration with a dollop of salt, I can't believe the Mig-29 has better instantaneous turn rate than a pure delta or better acceleration than the Mirage. US pilots on DACT found the German Mig 29 engines less responsive and the F-16's and baby Hornets consistently out accelerated the Mig. Besides it seems the author has a thing for Pudding and his memories may be tainted by such, no real surprise the the MIG29 has better climb rate and sustained turning performance.
DBC i doubt it...Air Marshal was not talking about one such excercise but multiple such instances in that two week period..Infact there was a excercise carried out just to recheck instantaneous turn rate with TACDE members tagging along....so no - definetly its not a figment of his imagination...
 

dbc

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Dec1/2 2004!!Please provide source for the fourth crash in 2004!!!
Flight Lt. Neehar Gururani killed - Engine fire after take-off 8th November 2004

F/L Rangachari / Wg Cdr Venkatesh - Mirage 2000(Trainer) 12th October 2004

Mirage 2000 crash landed(pilot error) at Mauritius Airport 4th Oct 2004 (aircraft repaired)

Sqn Ldr Harser Singh Gill - Landing gear damage (ordered to eject) 23rd September 2004
 

Lord Of Gondor

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Like I said,the Mauritius incident does not result in an A/C loss to the IAF!!The A/C is back in service!!BTW,I have been able to get articles sources for seven crashes(A/C irreparable) but you have said that there have been nine crashes!Please provide an alternate source to the one provided in Page 5 of this thread,to prove the nine losses claim:)
 

KEETARP

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Yes My friend the F-16 is a Tailed Delta wing configuration. The Mirage is a Tailless Delta wing config. The Tejas is a Cropped Delta wing config. The f-16XL is a Compound Delta,Cranked Delta wing config.
So All these aircraft will follow more or less the same pattern of flying.
The Mig-29 is a Swept Wing Config. So it will follow a different pattern as compared to the aircraft above.
So we decided to use Mig-29 in order to gain advantage of different A2A pattern. While Mirages would have been more or less similar to PAF F-16s in A2A due to the similar wing config.
Even today if a war breaks out with PAK (heaven forbid). I'd want all my mig-29s on the western border as they will allow us to takle PAF f-16s without need of diverting Sukhois from eastern border.
Also as I said earlier It's upto the airforce to decide which aircraft will do what. So i won't be surprised to see a MKI get escorted by Mig-21s if IAF decide it's in the best interest of the mission???
Only problem is that if the MKI is escorted by any inferior jet (say mig-29 or Mirage). It's not like a tanker being escorted by to jets. Just working Along side the MKI on any mission will mean that certain capabilities of the inferior jet will be highly incremented due to MKI's ability to act as a mini-AEW&CS.
So the MKI automatically becomes the local command and control centre for the Mission fleet (viz. MKI and the inferior jet escorting it be it mirage or Mig-29 or both).
P.S. - i'm not sure if MKI can transmit co-ordinates to Mig-21, Mig-27, Jaguar, Mirage, Tejas and would be very grateful if some1 could help me out here. If MKI can't communicate with Mig-29 also it's a shame but i think it will be able to after the upgrade.
And yes i'm a Doctor.
Ok , since you are my professional mate . I would take time to explain wrong notion .

Delta platforms here mean pure delta wing config . That is convention, nothing new i am talking .

Need to understand Delta means - Perfect triangle in Greek symbol



Simply compare mirage wing with F16

Mirage with Delta ---



You can clearly make out sharp angles btw fuselage and wings , forming a complete pure delta (*60 in fore and 90 degrees in trail) .


Now F16



THERE IS NO SHARP ANGLE INTERDICTION IN FRONT , infact there is pretty smooth blending of wing+fuselage+forward strakes .

You should have taken a look in F16 history , Delta was planned but later dropped due to trim-drag-issues . Pics below ....



Figure 1 one shows a sharp angle , i was referring . While figure 2 is one with smooth blend . (like today's falcons)

development -

[Four different wing planforms --- straight, swept, variable, and delta --- were reviewed. The variable-geometry wing was rejected because of its high weight and complexity. The delta wing had the advantage of low weight per unit of area and low wave drag, but was ultimately rejected because of its high drag-at-lift and trim drag penalties. A low-sweep, straight wing was finally chosen because it was thought to offer the best combination of good maneuverability, high acceleration, and maximum lift to ensure good altitude performance. The team chose a computer-controlled variable camber wing with leading-edge maneuvering flaps and trailing-edge flaperons which could match the camber of the wing to flight conditions, thus maximizing wing efficiency. The wing and main fuselage body were smoothly blended into each other in three dimensions, making it impossible to define where the wing ends and the fuselage begins. The blended wing-body, or lifting body effect is achieved by having a smooth fairing of the wing and fuselage rather than the conventional sharp intersection, providing improved lift at high angles of attack. The wing was fitted with smoothly-blended leading edge strakes. These strakes create vortices at high angles of attack which maintain the energy of the boundary layer air flowing over the inner section of the wing, delaying the stalling of the wing root and maintaining the directional stability. Since the wing was far too thin to accommodate landing gear members, the main undercarriage was fuselage-mounted, with the wheels retracting into under-fuselage wells. The wing is made predominantly of aluminum, with small amounts of steel, titanium and composite materials.]

BTW which spec - MS/MD ????
 

KEETARP

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I believe that the MKI is able to communicate with other IAF AC- in fact datalink, IFF and other such avionics are all part of the Indian contribution on the MKI. And after Bison UPG, MIG-29UPG, Jaguar Darin UPG, Mig 27 UPG and soon Mirage UPG there should be a common data link to share info between one another. Aswell as TEJAS with this facility built in.
Wrong , Datalinks on MKI are not copntributed by India . Neither on Mig29 as well .

Mig29UPG and Mig29K have same R-098 Polyot datalink from Russia .

While MKI have datalinks from ELISRA grp Israel - TADIRAN SpectraLink . Same Israeli are on A50 platform of IAF as well .

Mig29 would not be able to perform 2way dataling with Phalcon . Mirage and Jags can with Gateways placed in Il76 platform separately.

Only once AFNET is fully functional , all UAV, Aerstats ,DRDO AWACS , Phalcons , all fighters, choppers , transport assets and SAM batteries will be inked in a single network with fibre optic grid . And that tender has also been won by Israeli company for interlinking such wide network .

If yoy want i can post links for same .
 

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