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IAF may not get to fly LCA before 2010

Quwa

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Many argue that Indians are learning more while Pakistanis are just watching the plane being developed. It is correct at certain extent, but not over all.
Those many folks can argue all they want - but that never changes the fact that first fighters India built at home were of complete British origin with ZERO Indian output. At least with JF-17, Pakistan's money has gone into the development; while Pakistani engineers and scientists were able to learn from their counterparts since day one of JF-17's development. Not bad for a locally built fighter eh?
 

Skeptic786

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Those many folks can argue all they want - but that never changes the fact that first fighters India built at home were of complete British origin with ZERO Indian output. At least with JF-17, Pakistan's money has gone into the development; while Pakistani engineers and scientists were able to learn from their counterparts since day one of JF-17's development. Not bad for a locally built fighter eh?
Furthmore i would add...it is better to learn properly and perfect the art/science of making a product.....so that when it is your turn.....you give your country a quality product everytime....rather than DRDO....who interrupt anyone teaching them...."we know...we know...we can do it at home right away "......so when the indian government gives it to them at home....it turns out the product they produce is substandard...forcing the government to buy from abroad....Example Rajendra Fire locating radars.....which indian army gave up on from DRDO and instead went for foreign buy....Arjun tank is another example...forcing the government to buy T90s from russia.
 

Chukkar

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Furthmore i would add...it is better to learn properly and perfect the art/science of making a product.....so that when it is your turn.....you give your country a quality product everytime....rather than DRDO....who interrupt anyone teaching them....\\\"we know...we know...we can do it at home right away \\\"......so when the indian government gives it to them at home....it turns out the product they produce is substandard...forcing the government to buy from abroad....Example Rajendra Fire locating radars.....which indian army gave up on from DRDO and instead went for foreign buy....Arjun tank is another example...forcing the government to buy T90s from russia.
The Weapon Locating Radar is currently being trialled- the Army has not given up on it.

Nor has the Army given up on the Arjun, despite all the problems that it faced. The current production batch once cleared can lead to more orders.

It would be incorrect to presume that every article made by India is of bad quality & Pakistans procurement is better, and I would submit respectfully that such is not the case. Every nation has a learning curve, and India has demonstrated that for quite a few products it can make the grade. In others - eg the Arjun production, it is still \\\"on the way\\\", and its a manufacturing issue- the design has been accepted & cleared. The issue is of now producing it in numbers with all units of the same quality.

In the past decade, India has inducted a range of homegrown avionics, now manufactures EW/ ESM/ ELINT/COMINT systems for most of its aircraft, ships, ground forces. It recently ordered 7 medium range radars for its AF, the Navy ordered another 3 for its frigates, the Army ordered over a thousand BFSRs etc etc. The Navy for instance relies on a huge amount of locally made equipment as well.

The point is that they have attained a level of capability which is quite decent. India has also launched defence reforms recently of a fairly wide ranging nature- which should have a significant impact in the coming decade.

Please look at China for an example- they too were plagued with ambitious projects and time and cost overruns. Today they have a gamut of local systems. India is following on the same path because it can now afford to conduct research on the scale that is deserved AND import technology at the same time. This will have definite spinoffs.
 

Chukkar

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Pakistan has done a decent amount of work for the JF-17. Pakistan karma research lab is known to have provided China with some decsent avoinics for the JF-17 such as the EW suite (one of the most advanced in the world) and other goodies. Also Chukkar get your facts right, Pakistan has done alot for the JF-17 program
Again please specify the exact work provided. I have looked through my fairly decent collection of military journals, all sorts of links and stuff- I am as of yet unable to come up with any exact contribution in terms of avionics to the JF-17 from the Pak side.
The EW suite for the JF-17 per a Chinese article is Chinese, with a locally made RWR, SPJ and MAWS. The RWRs being manufactured @ Kamra are of Chinese design, per their own website.
 

Chukkar

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Many argue that Indians are learning more while Pakistanis are just watching the plane being developed. It is correct at certain extent, but not over all. Pakistan needed another plane for its air force and it is going to recieve it the way it wants it, and gradually Pakistan will learn how to make aircrafts it own, and will most likely be able to create other projects in the future. If Iran can! Why not Pakistan.
True, but Iran vs Pakistan is an apples to oranges exercise. Iran, thanks to the Shah received far more in manufacturing abilities than most western countries at the time, and it has expanded on its local programs to a far greater extent than most give it credit for. Pak is license producing from China and is fairly satisfied with the arrangement, Iran has chosen an entirely different path for its aircraft industry.

While Pakistan will be recieving its JF-17 fighter and will induct about about 150 planes, LCA has so far no future in the Indian inventory.
That is a presumption. The minimum requirements for the LCA @ 100 units, and with a bunch of other programs underway/ contemplated- MCA, IJT, AJT, Indo-Russian fifth gen project, the Indians are not relying just on the LCA. But it is equally true that without the LCA, few of the above could be thought of.
 

Neo

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By seeing other build,you never learn.You have to do that yourself.
Theoratically, you're right but there are smarter ways to achieve the capability; cooperate and learn from it!

Its a long learning process when you've to start from scratch. India started in the fifties by assembling UK designs, almost thirty years ahead of Pakistan and still she's struggling to built a decent aircraft, LCA which will almost be obsolete by the time it receives IOC. Sure you're learning, in this particular case learning from the mistakes and failures as two decades is way too long to develop a 3.5 gen aircraft.

Its true that Pak's contribution in the JF-17 is mostly of financial nature but there are about 30 PAF/PAC engeneers stationed there in China permanently who're constantly evaluating and improving flight systems and structure due their great experience with western aircraft, mainly the F-16.
PAC is to have a complete assembly and later a full operational production line, we'll take it further than the Chinese counterpart.

We're gaining from this experience, optimising our limited resources.

I don't expect us to build our next aircraft completely indigeniously, it will be a JV again but two decades from now we'll be fully selfsufficient. :flag:
 

Kaiser

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True, but Iran vs Pakistan is an apples to oranges exercise. Iran, thanks to the Shah received far more in manufacturing abilities than most western countries at the time, and it has expanded on its local programs to a far greater extent than most give it credit for. Pak is license producing from China and is fairly satisfied with the arrangement, Iran has chosen an entirely different path for its aircraft industry.



That is a presumption. The minimum requirements for the LCA @ 100 units, and with a bunch of other programs underway/ contemplated- MCA, IJT, AJT, Indo-Russian fifth gen project, the Indians are not relying just on the LCA. But it is equally true that without the LCA, few of the above could be thought of.
Yeah right where still waiting for you guys to complete the LCA yet you talk of making 2 different type of 5th generation fighters :rofl: .

It took the US 60 billion dollars of investment and decades of work just to complete the F-22 yet you monkey's couldnt finish a mirage 2000 copy in 20 years even with all the foreign help your scientist got.

Why bring Iran into this topic? You saying Iran doesnt make old, cheap chinese copies? Well they do, iran just talks but never does anything same as India, when your president marched 1 million troops in 2002 to the border then months later moved them back shows how great of a nation india is. Even India's so called first fighter was of british design and made in germany. India has yet to complete any of its failed projects even when everyone knows that there russian copies whereby, pakistan for the last decade has been make ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, subs, tanks, ATGM's etc...

Know tell me all you indians which part of the LCA is actually made in India? And explain to me why after 2 decades and alot of help india is still not close to inducting the LCA?
 

Kaiser

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Again please specify the exact work provided. I have looked through my fairly decent collection of military journals, all sorts of links and stuff- I am as of yet unable to come up with any exact contribution in terms of avionics to the JF-17 from the Pak side.
The EW suite for the JF-17 per a Chinese article is Chinese, with a locally made RWR, SPJ and MAWS. The RWRs being manufactured @ Kamra are of Chinese design, per their own website.
Kamra is also helping china integrate its avionics with Pakistani and western avioncs used in the thunder. Pakistan has sent many scientest and engineers to China. Also please tell me India's exact contribution to the LCA?
 

Kaiser

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Theoratically, you're right but there are smarter ways to achieve the capability; cooperate and learn from it!

Its a long learning process when you've to start from scratch. India started in the fifties by assembling UK designs, almost thirty years ahead of Pakistan and still she's struggling to built a decent aircraft, LCA which will almost be obsolete by the time it receives IOC. Sure you're learning, in this particular case learning from the mistakes and failures as two decades is way too long to develop a 3.5 gen aircraft.

Its true that Pak's contribution in the JF-17 is mostly of financial nature but there are about 30 PAF/PAC engeneers stationed there in China permanently who're constantly evaluating and improving flight systems and structure due their great experience with western aircraft, mainly the F-16.
PAC is to have a complete assembly and later a full operational production line, we'll take it further than the Chinese counterpart.

We're gaining from this experience, optimising our limited resources.

I don't expect us to build our next aircraft completely indigeniously, it will be a JV again but two decades from now we'll be fully selfsufficient. :flag:
Not 30 its more around 45. Also the thunders main purpose is for Pakistan to learn off of, and to replace the countless obsolete fighter in the PAF. Its not suppose to be a super advanced fighter like the LCA you know which takes in billions of investments :)
 

Neo

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Imho with a pricetag of around $15 million a piece JF-17 is more than a bargain to replace our obsolete fleet of museum pieces like the A-5Q and F-7P's and to get some selfreliance.
This $600-800 million is the best defence investment we've made sofar! :flag:
 

EagleEyes

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India is not taking out all of its Mig-21 Bisons from its inventory until 2015~. They just have a lot of those fighters and they simply cannot replace them all. Its understandable.

My guess is that F-7s will also be not getting replaced, but Mig-21s are pretty good though, they have recieved some very decent upgrades in the last 5 years. Isrealis were also offering the upgrade version i believe.

I am wondering if Pakistan can find some upgrade for F-7 and can make them worthy for a little long period of time until we have all the JF-17s in place. I am sure this process is going to go slowly and wont be easy, but an upgrade for F-7 will just be helpful.
 

Thunder

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I want to know why it's taking the LCA so long? They are building the plane not inventing it. One can understand that the F/A-22 took long to be built, but then again it's the next gen fighter, not some 4gen fighter everybody else is building. And JF-17 and LC are 4thgen fighters,Eurofighter, rafale, are 4.5 gen fightersJSF, F/A-22 are 5th gen
 

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