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IAF may not get to fly LCA before 2010

Quwa

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May 16, 2006
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No, Gnat is. But Gnat was already built even before IAF chose it, so it cannot be compared to JF-17, which was desgined ground up using PAF specifications.

So why would India have its engineers in building the Gnat??
My point was that the first fighter to be built in has some Pakistani input in it; maybe its minute, but its nonetheless an input. And you said it you said it yourself; the first fighter to be built in India had ZERO Indian input in it.
 

Jay_

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My point was that the first fighter to be built in has some Pakistani input in it; maybe its minute, but its nonetheless an input. And you said it you said it yourself; the first fighter to be built in India had ZERO Indian input in it.
I rest my case, you can compare apples and oranges and say Orange is better, its your discretion. Marut, HAL Ajeet or LCA is more apt to be compared, but then you gonna come back and say Indian engineers contributed nothing for the original Gnat program.
 

Quwa

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I didn't say those fighters were crap...I just said that Pakistan is starting its fighter production industry a few levels ahead - as compared to when India did so. Now you can continue to mis-read and mis-quote me; but that will not help your reading skills.
 

Chukkar

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Yeah right where still waiting for you guys to complete the LCA yet you talk of making 2 different type of 5th generation fighters :rofl: .
The point, as subtle as it may be, is that the LCA has developed an ancillary industry that already makes a load of stuff, for which the wheel need not be reinvented.

It took the US 60 billion dollars of investment and decades of work just to complete the F-22 yet you monkey\\\'s couldnt finish a mirage 2000 copy in 20 years even with all the foreign help your scientist got.
Stay off the juvenile insults please. That merely indicates the paucity of your arguementation.

Why bring Iran into this topic? You saying Iran doesnt make old, cheap chinese copies? Well they do, iran just talks but never does anything same as India, when your president marched 1 million troops in 2002 to the border then months later moved them back shows how great of a nation india is.
More politics. Do you even have anything useful to say, or are just interested in silly ranting?


Even India\\\'s so called first fighter was of british design and made in germany.
You need to get your information sorted out. India\\\'s first locally produced fighter was of British design and assembled in India! The Marut was designed by a team led by Kurt Tank, in which there were several Indian designers and manufactured in India.

India has yet to complete any of its failed projects even when everyone knows that there russian copies whereby, pakistan for the last decade has been make ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, subs, tanks, ATGM\\\'s etc...
Dont let jingoism get in the way of facts. Pakistan currently is license manufacturing- by the same standards, one call Indian license manufacturing a success, and there are dime a dozen of those. As regards local projects- there are many EW, Electronics and other projects which are successful and inducted. To give you one example- India has manufactured and inducted over five different sonars till date on its frontline ships and submarines..

Know tell me all you indians which part of the LCA is actually made in India?
A serious answer would include most of the avionics, its airframe (which is amongst the most sophisticated worldwide) and most of its mechanical accessories. But never mind, I quite get the idea that you are not seriously interested in the topic.


And explain to me why after 2 decades and alot of help india is still not close to inducting the LCA?
Because India is building the LCA from scratch, creating infrastructure, training personnel, setting up a wide ranging aerospace industry along the way. There is no shortcut to success. Period.
 

Chukkar

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Theoratically, you\'re right but there are smarter ways to achieve the capability; cooperate and learn from it!

Its a long learning process when you\'ve to start from scratch. India started in the fifties by assembling UK designs, almost thirty years ahead of Pakistan and still she\'s struggling to built a decent aircraft, LCA which will almost be obsolete by the time it receives IOC. Sure you\'re learning, in this particular case learning from the mistakes and failures as two decades is way too long to develop a 3.5 gen aircraft.

Its true that Pak\'s contribution in the JF-17 is mostly of financial nature but there are about 30 PAF/PAC engeneers stationed there in China permanently who\'re constantly evaluating and improving flight systems and structure due their great experience with western aircraft, mainly the F-16.
PAC is to have a complete assembly and later a full operational production line, we\'ll take it further than the Chinese counterpart.

We\'re gaining from this experience, optimising our limited resources.

I don\'t expect us to build our next aircraft completely indigeniously, it will be a JV again but two decades from now we\'ll be fully selfsufficient. :flag:
The LCA by all accounts is a 4th generation aircraft.

As regards two decades- India is trying to build the maximum amount inhouse, including its turbofan - these are not idle tasks- its taken China several decades of toil to clear low rate production of engines (refer JDW).

Coming to the point of obscolescence- your point is unclear. By the same standards, so will the JF-17, F-16s, Mirage 2000s- in fact, the only non obsolete aircraft in the true sense of the word, are stealth aircraft, or platforms like the Flankers, which on account of their size, can lug so much payload or squeeze in high power radars (1 Mtr aperture, upto 600 kg weight)- that they can mitigate against this aspect. In Asia, & more importantly the subcontinent, the LCA is anything but obsolete.
 

Chukkar

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Yes, IAF has already ordered 20 birds in IOC and allocated budget for it. Did that answer your question?
The actual orders are 20 (IAF Batch 1), 8 (IAF LSP), 9 Prototypes

Thats 37 aircraft already on order/ in production
 

Kaiser

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The point, as subtle as it may be, is that the LCA has developed an ancillary industry that already makes a load of stuff, for which the wheel need not be reinvented.



Stay off the juvenile insults please. That merely indicates the paucity of your arguementation.



More politics. Do you even have anything useful to say, or are just interested in silly ranting?




You need to get your information sorted out. India\\\'s first locally produced fighter was of British design and assembled in India! The Marut was designed by a team led by Kurt Tank, in which there were several Indian designers and manufactured in India.



Dont let jingoism get in the way of facts. Pakistan currently is license manufacturing- by the same standards, one call Indian license manufacturing a success, and there are dime a dozen of those. As regards local projects- there are many EW, Electronics and other projects which are successful and inducted. To give you one example- India has manufactured and inducted over five different sonars till date on its frontline ships and submarines..



A serious answer would include most of the avionics, its airframe (which is amongst the most sophisticated worldwide) and most of its mechanical accessories. But never mind, I quite get the idea that you are not seriously interested in the topic.




Because India is building the LCA from scratch, creating infrastructure, training personnel, setting up a wide ranging aerospace industry along the way. There is no shortcut to success. Period.
Yes yes
LCA is a very great fighter, actually its the best in the world
I thinkt he LCA is sooooo gooood that it was a gift from HANUMAN:P

Stop kidding yourself kid, LCA is nothing but a copy of the mirage 2000 which the indian DODO scientist tried to reverse engineer. Its delta-wing design is used by dassault and many other aviation company's the design is even know to have been bought from dassault. The avionics are all bought from abroad and dont even go toward the kaveri which is nothing but another failed project. Pakistan has been making its own tanks, and everything from scratch and this is a fact which is known by many people, unlike india which try to make something which never materializs. If you dont know almost all the nations in the world know how to make basic things such as sonar, ew, night vision etc its nothing big but pakistan has been building its own advanced laser guided and anti-armor bombs for decades know at karma something the indians arnt even close to acheiving

The biggest success of the indian defence industry is its ships and nothing else and those to are of russian design :rolleyes:

Admin Edit: Stop trying to act like a boss, and cut down with the personal attacks. Your only degrading yourself, and yourself respect by trying to look like other clowns on the net who love to use bullshit sarcasam which does not help at all, and like to use terms like "kid" and "copy" which will NOT help you to earn respect, but will only make you look like a fool in the eyes of mature & professional people. Why not just criticize like you did in other parts of the post?
 

Chukkar

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First thanks to the Webmaster for laying down the law, the religious and personal abuse was getting intolerable.


Yes yes
LCA is a very great fighter, actually its the best in the world
I thinkt he LCA is sooooo gooood that it was a gift from HANUMAN:P
Nobody gives anyone a gift- as they say God helps those who help themselves, irrespective of which name you call Him/ Her by.


Stop kidding yourself kid, LCA is nothing but a copy of the mirage 2000 which the indian DODO scientist tried to reverse engineer. Its delta-wing design is used by dassault and many other aviation company\\\'s the design is even know to have been bought from dassault. The avionics are all bought from abroad and dont even go toward
Interesting statements, but quite off the mark. First, the Mirage & LCA share no subsystems or even similarities, bar the use of the delta wing concept. The LCA is a cranked delta with different flying characteristics vs the Mirage which is a classical delta. The intakes, the overall design all point to an abinitio effort. Coming to the avionics being \\\"all bought from abroad\\\"- which are these, in particular? The imported items- currently- are the RLG/INS from Sextant, the MFDs- ditto, the Elbit HMDS - Dash system. The rest are made in India & there are derivatives on IAF upgrades. Coming to the above items, in all cases, there are replacement units being worked upon. It may be possible that initial radars for the production batch are imported. But thats unclear at this point.


the kaveri which is nothing but another failed project.
The Kaveri appears to have been resuscitated with a healthy dose of cash, user involvement and foreign assistance, which incidentally is the same as was done to the WS-10 by the Chinese. You are singing its dirge rather early!


Pakistan has been making its own tanks, and everything from scratch and this is a fact which is known by many people, unlike india which try to make something which never materializs.
Pakistan has limited resources & has endeavoured to use license production to advance its local sourcing, and worked on similar platforms, one of which is a rational successor to the next. This is a very logical effort but you are comparing apples to oranges by comparing a licensed production effort to an ab-initio one. The latter will invariably be a much bigger challenge and time consuming.

If you dont know almost all the nations in the world know how to make basic things such as sonar, ew, night vision etc its nothing big
Really? I have my copies of Janes & Brasseys in front of me- and I can see that only a handful of countries can claim to produce entirely their own complex multi unit EW projects or for that matter multiple classes of sonars for different platforms. Irrespective of what your feelings towards India are, these are but facts. Coming to night vision, I dont think India is there yet- its attempting to procure technology for level III Image Intensifying Tubes for local manufacture, whilst currently assembling Thermal imagers for which it sources 30% local components. But it is spending money on creating its own local sources for charge coupled dewars, focal plane arrays & the like, which should allow it to field some thermal imagers. Overall, they havent reached their goal in NV tech & are reliant on imports.

but pakistan has been building its own advanced laser guided and anti-armor bombs for decades know at karma something the indians arnt even close to acheiving
Thats a nice thing to know, but care to point out the data. Unfortunately, none of the text I have mentions anything about local LGBs @ Kamra, even if for decades.

The biggest success of the indian defence industry is its ships and nothing else and those to are of russian design :rolleyes:
You are mistaken. Indian ships are actually designed by Indian Naval engineers @ the IN Naval design HQ in combination with the shipyards. They have undoubtedly taken design assistance from Russia, France etc to fit their weapon systems in, but all serious commentators note that IN ships bear their own design criteria. For instance, the Indians tend to pack their ship with as much firepower & sensors they can manage- giving them a jampacked look, which is quite distinctive. Of late, they have changed tack and are going for a different approach.
 

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