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IAF Chief Flies Sortie in F-15 Fighter Jet in Israel, Discusses Military Ties With Counterpart

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Loooiil so he was a Jordanian Arab pilot.....
I am speechless ... I guess now you will tell me you graduated from Oxford University in the field of brain surgery
the pilot in question was trained by USAF and was a LAFB top gun. Does that mean he was American and the USAF should be credited with his kills? weird logic...
 

Trango Towers

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the pilot in question was trained by USAF and was a LAFB top gun. Does that mean he was American and the USAF should be credited with his kills? weird logic...
So now you admit he was Pakistani and PAF pilot not an Arab Jordanians....
U turn .... make up your mind
 

Windjammer

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True but then air combat was far simpler back then. Today, a sophisticated adversary like Israel can have you chasing shadows while they quickly degrade your ability to see, hear and eventually respond to debilitating attacks. The fight has evolved but Pakistan is yet to recognize a new era has dawned and equip and train accordingly.

Maybe I'm being harsh, perhaps clever people inside PAF are aware but don't have the means to pivot and recalibrate. Perhaps there is no need to since you have a clumsy, incompetent enemy next door - who knows.
After first participation by PAF in Red Flag in 2010, the PAF Air chief commented that one of the reasons to go to Red Flag was to find out and make sure in modern warfare, PAF wasn't left far behind....glad to say, we are not missing much......perhaps one of the reasons, Exercise Falcon Talon was held in Pakistan at the behest of USAF in early 2019.
 

Raider 21

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After first participation by PAF in Red Flag in 2010, the PAF Air chief commented that one of the reasons to go to Red Flag was to find out and make sure in modern warfare, PAF wasn't left far behind....glad to say, we are not missing much......perhaps one of the reasons, Exercise Falcon Talon was held in Pakistan at the behest of USAF in early 2019.
And they were more concerned about Green Flag. They went twice for it.

Falcon Talon when it was held, from what I've heard is that USAF squadron commander was upset that they couldn't come earlier. And this was more of a government to government issue rather than relations between both militaries.
 

Windjammer

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And they were more concerned about Green Flag. They went twice for it.

Falcon Talon when it was held, from what I've heard is that USAF squadron commander was upset that they couldn't come earlier. And this was more of a government to government issue rather than relations between both militaries.
True, USAF or it's contingent commander were in fact complaining that while PAF was holding exercises with PLAAF, Turkey and others, it wasn't considering same for USAF. The exercise was held in JAN.2019 and after Feb. of same year, they must have been even more keen.
 

IceCold

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BS, a Pakistani pilot flying for the RJAF shot down an Israeli Dassault Mystere.
PAF had nothing to do with it.. 🤓

If PAF taken on the Israeli air force today... RIP PAF...
Someone got jumpy!
Who do you think The Pakistani pilot belonged to? Starship enterprise?.
If PAF takes on IAF today, RIP PAF, ask Indian Airforce who regularly bonhomieho with the Israeli airforce
Having said that no doubt IAF is a very potent force specially with all the gadgets uncle Sam provides with US taxpayer money, but PAF can hold on its own.
 

akramishaqkhan

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Worried about venturing into this discussion at the expense of getting slammed by either side of this emotional discussion. But let me venture nevertheless.

PAF/IsAF (Israeli) of the 60s and 70s are very different from the PAF/IAF of the current years.
There is one thing to puff with Indian Air Force. Israeli AirForce is another level altogether.

The daddy of PAF and IsAF is USAF. Yes PK has built and even enhanced its tactics but there is no shame in accepting that the reason why PAF is good is in large measure to do with the USAF having a large impact on our philosophy, training and tactics. The same and to a larger degree hold true for the IsAF.

Second, it is very difficult to ascertain battle scenarios because so much goes into it. In fact these sort of comparisons are pointless, because a battle of two airforces does not occur in a vacuum. In both scenarios air bases are likely to come under massive BM saturation attacks which are likely to erode each others capabilities. The Israelis having a far greater ability to replenish their resources. The entire manufacturing capacity of the US will work for them to assist in such a scenario. One can argue that China would do the same for PK.

Pakistan being a much larger country is perhaps in a better position to withstand such BM and AirBase attacks and could disperse its assets. Israel on the other hand has a much stronger AD integration system which will allow them decent protection against air and BMs. So I would call it a stalemate in the larger scheme.

So then come air assets: Here IsAF has a leg up. Their frontline fighters are far more advanced than ours with stronger first attack options than PAF. Yes tactics will come into play and Pakistan will give them a bloody nose, but will not sustain over time. Again IsAF is a different ball game to IAF.

BTW people should not be surprised that this very scenario has been war gamed by Air CMD and Joint CMD. In all those scenarios ISAF came out on top, to significant loses. This was war gamed in the 80s and since then goes through revisions and updates. No serious PK Mil strategy person will tell you that PAF will reign supreme.

It is this significant pain (of losses) that keeps IsAF at bay, and PK/PAF are comfortable in maintaining a strategy that is in line with this. The belief is that in the case of a full blown out war, PK will not allow for its air force to be totally ground out, without the battle converting first to broader ballistic missile exchange and then potentially Nuclear in the case of a ground invasion. So the losses for any party thinking of doing this to Pakistan is not bearable.

People need to understand the nuclear option has given Pakistan a lot of space. Were it not for this, Pakistan would have already had a hot war by now. And this is where the attack will come. If Pakistan clearly establishes red lines, maintains a secretive program, have strong generals/officers corp non-disruptive chain of custody/decisions, and finally make the enemy realize that there is a strong will to take the final decision, then we are safe. If we lose any of the above and give the enemy a belief that they can interdict this process, then we'll face an attack. This is exactly what the other side is war gaming, and something PK (SPD) is counter war gaming against. That detail is for another day.
 
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Sharma Ji

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Worried about venturing into this discussion at the expense of getting slammed by either side of this emotional discussion. But let me venture nevertheless.

PAF/IsAF (Israeli) of the 60s and 70s are very different from the PAF/IAF of the current years.
There is one thing to puff with Indian Air Force. Israeli AirForce is another level altogether.

The daddy of PAF and IsAF is USAF. Yes PK has built and even enhanced its tactics but there is no shame in accepting that the reason why PAF is good is in large measure to do with the USAF having a large impact on our philosophy, training and tactics. The same and to a larger degree hold true for the IsAF.

Second, it is very difficult to ascertain battle scenarios because so much goes into it. In fact these sort of comparisons are pointless, because a battle of two airforces does not occur in a vacuum. In both scenarios air bases are likely to come under massive BM saturation attacks which are likely to erode each others capabilities. The Israelis having a far greater ability to replenish their resources. The entire manufacturing capacity of the US will work for them to assist in such a scenario. One can argue that China would do the same for PK.

Pakistan being a much larger country is perhaps in a better position to withstand such BM and AirBase attacks and could disperse its assets. Israel on the other hand has a much stronger AD integration system which will allow them decent protection against air and BMs. So I would call it a stalemate in the larger scheme.

So then come air assets: Here IsAF has a leg up. Their frontline fighters are far more advanced than ours with stronger first attack options than PAF. Yes tactics will come into play and Pakistan will give them a bloody nose, but will not sustain over time. Again IsAF is a different ball game to IAF.

BTW people should not be surprised that this very scenario has been war gamed by Air CMD and Joint CMD. In all those scenarios ISAF came out on top, to significant loses. This was war gamed in the 80s and since then goes through revisions and updates. No serious PK Mil strategy person will tell you that PAF will reign supreme.

It is this significant pain (of losses) that keeps IsAF at bay, and PK/PAF are comfortable in maintaining a strategy that is in line with this. The belief is that in the case of a full blown out war, PK will not allow for its air force to be totally ground out, without the battle converting first to broader ballistic missile exchange and then potentially Nuclear in the case of a ground invasion. So the losses for any party thinking of doing this to Pakistan is not bearable.

People need to understand the nuclear option has given Pakistan a lot of space. Were it not for this, Pakistan would have already had a hot war by now. And this is where the attack will come. If Pakistan clearly establishes red lines, maintains a secretive progm, have strong generals/officers corp non-disruptive chain of custody/decisions, and finally make the enemy realize that there is a strong will to take the final decision, then we are safe. If we lose any of the above and give the enemy a belief that they can interdict this process, then we'll face an attack. This is exactly what the other side is war gaming, and something PK (SPD) is counter war gaming against. That detail is for another day.
r
Lost me at “BM saturation”

Matalab kuch bhi, eh ?

No enemy can tell the type of warhead in a BM, they will assume the worst and…
Fog of war is one thing. Stupidity is another.
Then keep believing your enemy is “stupid”

thanks !
 

Syama Ayas

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Worried about venturing into this discussion at the expense of getting slammed by either side of this emotional discussion. But let me venture nevertheless.

PAF/IsAF (Israeli) of the 60s and 70s are very different from the PAF/IAF of the current years.
There is one thing to puff with Indian Air Force. Israeli AirForce is another level altogether.

The daddy of PAF and IsAF is USAF. Yes PK has built and even enhanced its tactics but there is no shame in accepting that the reason why PAF is good is in large measure to do with the USAF having a large impact on our philosophy, training and tactics. The same and to a larger degree hold true for the IsAF.

Second, it is very difficult to ascertain battle scenarios because so much goes into it. In fact these sort of comparisons are pointless, because a battle of two airforces does not occur in a vacuum. In both scenarios air bases are likely to come under massive BM saturation attacks which are likely to erode each others capabilities. The Israelis having a far greater ability to replenish their resources. The entire manufacturing capacity of the US will work for them to assist in such a scenario. One can argue that China would do the same for PK.

Pakistan being a much larger country is perhaps in a better position to withstand such BM and AirBase attacks and could disperse its assets. Israel on the other hand has a much stronger AD integration system which will allow them decent protection against air and BMs. So I would call it a stalemate in the larger scheme.

So then come air assets: Here IsAF has a leg up. Their frontline fighters are far more advanced than ours with stronger first attack options than PAF. Yes tactics will come into play and Pakistan will give them a bloody nose, but will not sustain over time. Again IsAF is a different ball game to IAF.

BTW people should not be surprised that this very scenario has been war gamed by Air CMD and Joint CMD. In all those scenarios ISAF came out on top, to significant loses. This was war gamed in the 80s and since then goes through revisions and updates. No serious PK Mil strategy person will tell you that PAF will reign supreme.

It is this significant pain (of losses) that keeps IsAF at bay, and PK/PAF are comfortable in maintaining a strategy that is in line with this. The belief is that in the case of a full blown out war, PK will not allow for its air force to be totally ground out, without the battle converting first to broader ballistic missile exchange and then potentially Nuclear in the case of a ground invasion. So the losses for any party thinking of doing this to Pakistan is not bearable.

People need to understand the nuclear option has given Pakistan a lot of space. Were it not for this, Pakistan would have already had a hot war by now. And this is where the attack will come. If Pakistan clearly establishes red lines, maintains a secretive program, have strong generals/officers corp non-disruptive chain of custody/decisions, and finally make the enemy realize that there is a strong will to take the final decision, then we are safe. If we lose any of the above and give the enemy a belief that they can interdict this process, then we'll face an attack. This is exactly what the other side is war gaming, and something PK (SPD) is counter war gaming against. That detail is for another day.
excellent post, the bolded part is something people rarely acknowledge here
Similarly, Indian Airforce and PLAAF is based on Soviet doctrines and that seems to visible even to this day
 

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