What's new

How to beat the "1971Civil War " Psychological Syndrome !

Status
Not open for further replies.

magra

FULL MEMBER
Aug 17, 2020
1,034
-1
512
Country
India
Location
United States
We will try our best. There are some small successes. The partition generation having moved on there is no need for the Lahore bus or Samjhauta express. No flights either. Third party foreign nationals ( except Bangladeshis ) can
enter Pakistan through Wagah. The only Pakistani nationals traveling to India are our minority populations on religious pilgrimages . With a different perception of religious devotion , Pakistanis see no need to visit Ajmer or Nizamuddin. The grave of a dead person, no matter how great is just that...a grave. Hindu and Sikh pilgrims from India visit Pakistan and vice versa. Being an infinitesimal minority the number of minority Pakistanis visiting in India is very insignificant.
The greatest development for Pakistan has been the degradation of the ties with Indian Muslims.
The old generation has mostly died off. With the degradation there has been a change in the mindset. The ties will finally be severed as the last post-independence migrant dies off. There will be borderline fringe syncretic belief populations on the border seeking to maintain their age old customs visiting local Sufi shrines. We can control these populations very easily. We no longer allow our citizens travel to visit shrines such as these:
See the link ...
You may try but would not succeed.
Your citizens will continue to travel to India for medical purposes for the foreseeable future and we will give good mehmaan-nawaazi. Our Sikhs will come to Kartarpur and interact with you guys and receive mehmaan-nawaazi.
You guys will continue to follow Bollywood (if not openly then covertly) with zeal and will dance on your marriages on latest Bollywood songs. Once ties are bit better, your artists and film stars will continue to come to India to get work.
You will continue to follow Kohli & team to take inspiration. Your Wasim Akrams and Shoaib Akhtars will continue to talk at our post match analysis shows.
Indian & Pakistani diaspora will continue to mingle in UK, US, Canada, Dubai etc. and talk in desi tongue.

In short, humse peechha chhudana mushkil hi nahin, naamumkin hai (if you could guess the movie reference, you would know why)

Ask Advaniji and Vajpayeeji that.
Which is why they spoke of " ground realities " . Maybe they believed Pakistan would start from scratch.


How could a desperate bankrupt truncated nation defeated in war a two and halt decades later, under international sanctions test 6 devices consecutively? Must have been the Chinese ...even though the People's Republic of China signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty in 1992.
So Pakistan got an excuse to test it's devices.
Were India's weapons directed against China or against Pakistan?

Did India ask China to recognize the "ground realities"?
Did India make any statement on China after the nuclear tests ?
How about a statement like this :
"Beijing should realize the change in the geo-strategic situation in the region and the world..."
Are you claiming or joking that Pak got its nuclear tech from China. India believes so.
Indian intelligence knew since late 80s that Pak is working on nuclear tech, so it was not as if Pak became nuclear only due to 1998 tests by India.

1998 tests were a reconfirm of our nuclear capability since 1974 tests had a very limited objective. As mentioned, India consistenly had a 'no-first use' policy. So India's nuclear devices are not aimed at anybody but only those who strike nuclear devices on India first.
 

Baibars_1260

SENIOR MEMBER
Sep 12, 2020
2,177
0
2,051
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
In short, humse peechha chhudana mushkil hi nahin, naamumkin hai (if you could guess the movie reference, you would know why)
Peechha chhudana mushkil? Will answer that in a separate post
meanwhile below is an important answer I missed.
When the princely state was attacked by Pakistan to try and force merge, whats the guarantee that an independent J&K (consisting of AJK, GB, Indian Kashmir, Jammu, Ladakh) would not be attacked again for capture by Pakistan from west or China from east.
Let me put down my stand finally and I will wait for your answer.

1. You classified the insertion of irregulars inside the pre-accession Kashmir as "aggression" . Yes, it was an aggression to stop the massacre of the people by the Maharaja's Dogra troops and the return of refugees from what is now Azad Kashmir. This is equivalent to the India first doing covert operations with the Mukti Bahini and then launching a full fledged invasion.
2. In case you think I am
making an equivalence of scenarios just for an argument that is not the case. I do acknowledge atrocities on the Bangladeshi people by the East Pakistan authorities, who armed militias to do the dirty work for them. There were also atrocities on resident Pakistanis in Bangladesh. India did have a massive refugee problem and that was the prime cause of the conflict.

3. Once the Kashmir acceded to India on October 27 1947 the resistance was fighting the Indian Army and lost ground . Pakistani regular troops moved into Kashmir on May 4, 1948 and held the line preventing further push backs.
For the record, there were no reports of ill treatment of the Kashmiri population under the Indian Army at that time ; as compared to the holocaust launched by the Maharaja's troops in August September 1947

4. In January 1949 India went to the United Nations and Pakistan abided by the ceasefire. India threw the Maharaja and his cruel
army out preferring Sheikh Abddullah represented as a popular leader of the people in the territory under Indian control.
With the Maharaja and his army out of the picture the basic purpose of protecting the Kashmiri people had been served. The actual task of the self determination would be dealt with later .

5. There was an important reason for Pakistan to agree to the UN ceasefire even though Pakistan itself had never sought UN intervention.
Pakistan had then very little resources to fight the war. With rubber stamped currency which was not worth the paper it was printed on Pakistan needed time to have even a semblance of an economy. The next few months were crucial and Pakistan rearmed very quickly and stabilized it's currency and economy. It even had a tiny air force of sorts with expected deliveries of 50 Hawker Sea Furies by early 1950.

6. However by October 1949 China became independent, and under Communist rule. China was extremely dissatisfied with the British demarcated boundary inherited by Pakistan. Now Pakistan was under extreme threat of invasion, and war with China unless Pakistan genuinely acknowledged China's claims and started discussions on demarcation of the border, India was facing the same problem.
7. Pakistan had suggested putting the Kashmir problem on hold and for India and Pakistan to jointly face the Chinese threat. India refused.

8. By late 1949, Pakistan was thus facing a double threat with very limited resources. In absence of Indian cooperation we made our peace with China.

10. You contemptuously dismiss Pakistan's military capabilities as being limited to fighting a princely state when India's record at that time was no better fighting Junagadh and Hyderabad. From May 4 1948 to January 1949 the Pakistani armed forces squared off with the Indian Armed Forces with no winter gear, artillery, or air power and held the line which stands largely unchanged till today.
As a bankrupt nation we were facing two large adversaries but we came through

That was the past For the future we only know ; that we don't know what will happen.
 

magra

FULL MEMBER
Aug 17, 2020
1,034
-1
512
Country
India
Location
United States
1. You classified the insertion of irregulars inside the pre-accession Kashmir as "aggression" . Yes, it was an aggression to stop the massacre of the people by the Maharaja's Dogra troops and the return of refugees from what is now Azad Kashmir. This is equivalent to the India first doing covert operations with the Mukti Bahini and then launching a full fledged invasion.
2. In case you think I am
making an equivalence of scenarios just for an argument that is not the case. I do acknowledge atrocities on the Bangladeshi people by the East Pakistan authorities, who armed militias to do the dirty work for them. There were also atrocities on resident Pakistanis in Bangladesh. India did have a massive refugee problem and that was the prime cause of the conflict.
The violence in Kashmir was part of partition madness. The same madness was raging in Lahore and Amritsar. Do you think it would have made sense for India and Pakistan to attack each other over it on international border too?

If Pak's intention was merely to stop the massacre in Jammu, they should moved in quickly to Srinagar to depose the Maharaja. Rather they stopped after initial success and went about looting, plunder, killing non-Muslims, raping and kidnapping Hindu women.
Source : https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41662588
Excerpt from the article

Flushed with victory, the tribesmen got down to wanton looting and arson.
"They plundered the state armoury, set entire markets on fire and looted their goods," Mr Rahman says.
"They shot everyone who couldn't recite the kalima - the Arabic-language Muslim declaration of faith. Many non-Muslim women were enslaved, while many others jumped in the river to escape capture."
The streets were littered with signs of mayhem - broken buildings, broken shop furniture, the ashes of burnt goods and dead bodies, including those of tribal fighters, state soldiers and local men and women. There were also bodies floating in the river.
The raiders spent about three days in Muzaffarabad before sense prevailed.


Sheikh Abdullah was the most popular leader of J&K at that time and India was inclined to hand over the power to him. After India-Pak agreed to ceasefire, Pak should have agreed to remove its troops from entirety of J&K as per UN resolution. You acknowledge that Indian army was not harming civilians. India would have handed power to Sheikh Abdullah if plebiscite said that Kashmiris wanted independence. But problem was Pak's mistrust on India at that time. So it ignored that resolution.

3. Once the Kashmir acceded to India on October 27 1947 the resistance was fighting the Indian Army and lost ground . Pakistani regular troops moved into Kashmir on May 4, 1948 and held the line preventing further push backs.
When Maharaja moved to Jammu and finally acceded to India, it was already almost too late. Pak tribesmen had almost reached Srinagar and were about to capture the sole airport there. India had no good road connections to Srinagar at that time. The only option was to airlift troops to the airport before it was captured. We landed troops, secured the airport, used it to bring more troops and somehow turned the tide from there to push the tribesmen back.

Pakistan had much more direct road connectivity to the area. India's only link was through air. Once Pakistan army came to stand defensive ground, it was difficult to push them further back as mountains are very good for defense and very hard for attack. Both parties knew it and readily agreed to ceasefire.

6. However by October 1949 China became independent, and under Communist rule. China was extremely dissatisfied with the British demarcated boundary inherited by Pakistan. Now Pakistan was under extreme threat of invasion, and war with China unless Pakistan genuinely acknowledged China's claims and started discussions on demarcation of the border, India was facing the same problem.
7. Pakistan had suggested putting the Kashmir problem on hold and for India and Pakistan to jointly face the Chinese threat. India refused.
8. By late 1949, Pakistan was thus facing a double threat with very limited resources. In absence of Indian cooperation we made our peace with China.
Thats interesting. This explains why Ayub Khan agreed to not attack India in 1962 although China would have wanted double attack on India. Pakistan ceded territory to China only after that war.
If we could have faced China together in 1949/50, we could have probably also rescued Tibet. For thousands of years, Tibet was a natural buffer between India and China. Tibet was atmost a protectorate of China at times, and independent at other times. Only in the last 70 years, China and India have actually been neighbors.

10. You contemptuously dismiss Pakistan's military capabilities as being limited to fighting a princely state when India's record at that time was no better fighting Junagadh and Hyderabad. From May 4 1948 to January 1949 the Pakistani armed forces squared off with the Indian Armed Forces with no winter gear, artillery, or air power and held the line which stands largely unchanged till today.
As a bankrupt nation we were facing two large adversaries but we came through
I am not ridiculing Pak's army. I am just saying that Pak irregulars could only defeat princely state's forces but were pushed back once Indian army came in. Obviously, as you said, once Pak regular army, both armies held each other to stalemate.
 

magra

FULL MEMBER
Aug 17, 2020
1,034
-1
512
Country
India
Location
United States
Flushed with victory, the tribesmen got down to wanton looting and arson.
"They plundered the state armoury, set entire markets on fire and looted their goods," Mr Rahman says.
"They shot everyone who couldn't recite the kalima - the Arabic-language Muslim declaration of faith. Many non-Muslim women were enslaved, while many others jumped in the river to escape capture."
The streets were littered with signs of mayhem - broken buildings, broken shop furniture, the ashes of burnt goods and dead bodies, including those of tribal fighters, state soldiers and local men and women. There were also bodies floating in the river.
The raiders spent about three days in Muzaffarabad before sense prevailed.
@Baibars_1260
More excerpts on the loot, plunder and rape which the Pak irregulars, whom you consider as rescuers did.

"They brought back war booty though; gold and some women," he chuckles.
"Some had brought cattle, some horses. Most of them had brought arms, and many brought women."

The invasion not only traumatised a previously well-settled and peaceful Kashmiri society, it also set a disastrous pattern for India-Pakistan relations.


If you wonder on the neutrality of this article, please see the last para. It is from a book written by Pak army major on the topic 'The 1947-48 Kashmir War: The War of Lost Opportunities'
 

Baibars_1260

SENIOR MEMBER
Sep 12, 2020
2,177
0
2,051
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
You may try but would not succeed.
Your citizens will continue to travel to India for medical purposes for the foreseeable future and we will give good mehmaan-nawaazi. Our Sikhs will come to Kartarpur and interact with you guys and receive mehmaan-nawaazi.
First we don't want to bring Sikhs into the India Pakistan equation. Sikhs are a global community and there are Pakistani Sikhs too. Yes, the largest concentration of Sikhs are in Indian Punjab and Kartarpur is accessible from corridor from India. However Kartarpur is for all Sikhs, not just those from India.,Sikhs who are nationals from other countries such as Canada or UK do not need to use the corridor and can fly directly to Lahore.

So far as medical visits are concerned we have identified the reasons why a few Pakistanis used to travel to India for medical treatment ( all visas and exit permits are indefinitely blocked as of now ),. These treatments are being made available with newer hospitals being made.
China is also providing specialized medical care ti Pakistan.

You guys will continue to follow Bollywood (if not openly then covertly) with zeal and will dance on your marriages on latest Bollywood songs. Once ties are bit better, your artists and film stars will continue to come to India to get work.
Bollywood and its movies have changed forever with a hyper-nationalistic genre . Lakshya, Uri, Padmavat, Border... The bad guys are Muslims and Pakistanis and the good guys are all the other Indians.
India always wins, Pakistan always looses. All terrorists are Muslims and all Muslims are terrorists.

You really think that Pakistani theaters will be packed if Uri and Padmavat will be shown free over here?

With Shiv Sena controlling your province of Maharashtra and. Bombay which film producer will hire any Pakistani actor for a role and which Pakistani actor will dare go to work there?

You will continue to follow Kohli & team to take inspiration. Your Wasim Akrams and Shoaib Akhtars will continue to talk at our post match analysis shows.
Why do we need to seek Kohli for inspiration? Was Kohli around when Imran Khan captained the team that won the world cup in 1992 ?
We have a PSL also ? Wasim
Akram will soon be on analytical TV shores here too.

Indian & Pakistani diaspora will continue to mingle in UK, US, Canada, Dubai etc. and talk in desi tongue.
Perhaps, not beyond "Hellos " at the grocery store,


In short, humse peechha chhudana mushkil hi nahin, naamumkin hai (if you could guess the movie reference, you would know why)
Couldn't guess the movie reference but do understand Hindi .
We will free ourselves.
Peechha chodana mushkil hai,
na-mumkin nahin.
l
 

Baibars_1260

SENIOR MEMBER
Sep 12, 2020
2,177
0
2,051
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
@Baibars_1260
More excerpts on the loot, plunder and rape which the Pak irregulars, whom you consider as rescuers did.

"They brought back war booty though; gold and some women," he chuckles.
"Some had brought cattle, some horses. Most of them had brought arms, and many brought women."

The invasion not only traumatised a previously well-settled and peaceful Kashmiri society, it also set a disastrous pattern for India-Pakistan relations.


If you wonder on the neutrality of this article, please see the last para. It is from a book written by Pak army major on the topic 'The 1947-48 Kashmir War: The War of Lost Opportunities'
Where does the article mention Pakistani army officers and men ?
I was referring to the situation after May 4 1948 to January 1949 when the Pakistani Armed forces held the Indian Army to a stalemate.
When did the regular Pakistan army indulge in murder, arson and rape in Kashmir?
For the record I condemn the savage actions of the irregulars tribal bands that were out of control.
If you count the actions of the irregulars as savagery than look at the whole picture what the Maharajas Dogra troops did in Jammu, Their atrocities are not pinned on the Indian Army who were supporting them initially.

Since this is getting into slug fest. Let me unload the barbarism of the Dogra pehredaar of the Raja here.
@peagle has all the sources .
 

Baibars_1260

SENIOR MEMBER
Sep 12, 2020
2,177
0
2,051
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
@Baibars_1260
More excerpts on the loot, plunder and rape which the Pak irregulars, whom you consider as rescuers did.

"They brought back war booty though; gold and some women," he chuckles.
"Some had brought cattle, some horses. Most of them had brought arms, and many brought women."

The invasion not only traumatised a previously well-settled and peaceful Kashmiri society, it also set a disastrous pattern for India-Pakistan relations.


If you wonder on the neutrality of this article, please see the last para. It is from a book written by Pak army major on the topic 'The 1947-48 Kashmir War: The War of Lost Opportunities'

Link

https://scroll.in/article/811468/the-killing-fields-of-jammu-when-it-was-muslims-who-were-eliminated




The killing fields of Jammu: How Muslims become a minority in the region

Official records have tried their utmost to suppress the details of a Muslim massacre.

Saeed Naqvi

Jul 10, 2016

What was the death toll in the killing fields of Jammu? There are no official figures, so one has to go by reports in the British press of that period. Horace Alexander’s article on 16 January 1948 in The Spectator is much quoted; he put the number killed at 200,000.

To quote a 10 August 1948 report published in The Times, London: “2,37,000 Muslims were systematically exterminated – unless they escaped to Pakistan along the border – by the forces of the Dogra State headed by the Maharaja in person and aided by Hindus and Sikhs. This happened in October 1947, five days before the Pathan invasion and nine days before the Maharaja’s accession to india.” Reportedly, as a result of the massacre/migration, Muslims who were a majority (61 per cent) in the Jammu region became a minority.

Mountbatten was in control in Delhi and had news of the genocide of Muslims in Jammu filtered out of the media. Sadly, there has been precious little discussion in India about this horrible phase of history.

Maharaja Hari Singh’s involvement, with the support of the RSS, is evident from a letter Jawaharlal Nehru wrote to Vallabhbhai Patel on 17 April 1949 (quoted in Frontline magazine):

In this (intelligence) report, among other things, a reference was made to a growing Hindu agitation in Jammu province for what is called a zonal plebiscite. This idea is based on the belief that a plebiscite for the whole of Kashmir is bound to be lost and, therefore, let us save Jammu at least. You will perhaps remember that some proposal of this kind was put forward by the Maharaja some months back. it seems to me that this kind of propaganda is very harmful, indeed, for us. Whatever may happen in the future, I do not think Jammu province is running away from us. If we want Jammu province by itself and are prepared to make a present of the rest of the State to Pakistan, I have no doubt we could clinch the issue in a few days. The prize we are fighting for is the valley of Kashmir. [This is what Nehru had dug in his heels for. The consequences are for all to see to this day.]

This propaganda for a zonal plebiscite is going on in Jammu, in Delhi and elsewhere. It is carried on by what is known as the Jammu Praja Parishad. Our intelligence officer reported that this Praja Parishad is financed by the Maharaja. Further, that the large sums collected for the Dharmarth Fund, which are controlled by the Maharaja, are being spent in propaganda for him.

The lid on these massacres was lifted by Ved Bhasin and a few journalists of that time. But like the collective silence over the pogrom in Hyderabad, the holocaust in Jammu has been a story hidden from public view by the machinations of the very people who covertly allowed the massacres to take place. These included many in the national leadership of the Congress party at the time. The events of Hyderabad and Jammu and Kashmir reveal the emergence in New Delhi of an establishment which was indifferent to Indian Muslims.

Consider the testimony of journalist Ved Bhasin. Here I am again quoting from his paper presented at the Jammu University in 2003.

Communal tension was building up in Jammu soon after the announcement of the Mountbatten plan with the Hindu Sabha, RSS and the Muslim Conference trying to incite communal passions. Tension increased with a large number of Hindus and Sikhs migrating to the State from Punjab and NWFP and even from areas now under Pakistan’s control. Trouble was brewing in Poonch, where a popular non-communal agitation was launched after the Maharaja’s administration took over the erstwhile jagir under its direct control and imposed some taxes. The mishandling of this agitation and use of brutal force by the Maharaja’s administration inflamed the passions, turning this non-communal struggle into a communal strife.

The Maharaja’s administration had not only asked all Muslims to surrender their arms but also demobilised a large number of Muslim soldiers in the Dogra army and the Muslim police officers, whose loyalty it suspected. The Maharaja’s visit to Bhimber was followed by large-scale killings.

Bhasin reports the large-scale killing of Muslims in Udhampur district, particularly in Udhampur proper, Chenani, Ramnagar and Reasi areas. Even in Bhaderwah (about 150 kilometres from Udhampur), a number of Muslims were victims of communal marauders. According to Bhasin, the RSS played a key role in these killings, aided by armed Sikh refugees “who even paraded the Jammu streets with their naked swords”. Some of those who led the riots in Udhampur and Bhaderwah later joined the National Conference and some even served as ministers. There were reports of Muslims massacred in Chhamb, Deva Batala, Manawsar and other parts of Akhnoor, with several of them fleeing to the other side or moving to Jammu. In Kathua district too there was the large-scale killing of Muslims and reports of women being raped and abducted.

As for the attitude of the state, Bhasin alleges that instead of preventing these communal killings and fostering an atmosphere of peace, “the Maharaja’s administration helped and even armed the communal marauders”. He goes on to say that many Muslims living outside Muslim-dominated areas were brutally killed by the rioters who moved freely in vehicles with arms and ammunition even when the city was officially under curfew. “The curfew it appeared was meant only to check the movement of Muslims,” he says.

Terrible carnage took place later when the Muslims in Talab Khatikan area were asked to surrender.

They were shifted to the police lines at Jogi gate, where now Delhi Public School is situated. Instead of providing them security, the administration encouraged them to go to Pakistan for safety. The first batch of several thousands of these Muslims were loaded in about sixty lorries to take them to Sialkot. Unaware of what is going to happen to them these families boarded the buses. The vehicles were escorted by troops. But when they reached near Chattha on Jammu-Sialkot road, in the outskirts of the city, a large number of armed RSS men and Sikh refugees were positioned there.

They were pulled out of the vehicles and killed mercilessly with the soldiers either joining [in] or looking [on] as idle spectators. The news about the massacre was kept a closely guarded secret. next day another batch of these Muslim families were similarly boarded in the vehicles and met the same fate. [T]hose who somehow managed to escape the wrath of killers reached Sialkot to narrate their tale of woe…



The state administration denied it had any role in the massacres. It even feigned ignorance of any plans to change the demography of the Jammu region. But Bhasin differs:

Though polite, he warned me of dire consequences…he first warned me by saying that “I could have put you behind bars for your nefarious activities. But since you also happen to be a Khatri like me and are also related to me, i am simply giving you advice. It is not the time to form peace committees and work for peace but to defend Hindus and Sikhs from the Muslim communalists who are planning to kill them and destabilise the situation. We have already formed a Hindu Sikh Defence Committee. You and your colleagues better support it.” Then he added, “We are imparting armed training to Hindu and Sikh boys in Rehari area. You and your colleagues should better join such training.” When i sent a colleague to the training camp the next day he found that some RSS youths and others were being given training in the use of .303 rifles by soldiers.


Another incident that I recall is about Mr Mehr Chand Mahajan (the then prime minister) who told a delegation of Hindus who met him in the palace when he arrived in Jammu that now when the power is being transferred to the people they should demand parity. [One] of them associated with National Conference asked how can they demand parity when there is so much difference in population ratio. Pointing to the Ramnagarrakh below, where some bodies of Muslims were still lying he said “the population ratio too can change”.

Mahatma Gandhi did comment on the situation in Jammu on 25 December 1947 and his remarks have found mention in volume 90 of his Collected Works: “The Hindus and Sikhs of Jammu and those who had gone there from outside killed Muslims. The Maharaja of Kashmir is responsible for what is happening there…Muslim women have been dishonoured.”

Excerpted with permission from Being the Other: the Muslim in India, Saeed Naqvi, Aleph Book Company.

Support our journalism by subscribing to Scroll+. We welcome your comments at letters@scroll.in.
 

magra

FULL MEMBER
Aug 17, 2020
1,034
-1
512
Country
India
Location
United States
So far as medical visits are concerned we have identified the reasons why a few Pakistanis used to travel to India for medical treatment ( all visas and exit permits are indefinitely blocked as of now ),. These treatments are being made available with newer hospitals being made.
Good for Pakistani patients.

Bollywood and its movies have changed forever with a hyper-nationalistic genre . Lakshya, Uri, Padmavat, Border... The bad guys are Muslims and Pakistanis and the good guys are all the other Indians.
India always wins, Pakistan always looses. All terrorists are Muslims and all Muslims are terrorists.

You really think that Pakistani theaters will be packed if Uri and Padmavat will be shown free over here?
This article shows why the ban is not sustainable for you guys

Pakistani cinemas need to show at least 26 new films a year to stay in business.
But Pakistan's own film industry has only been producing 12 to 15 annually. And, Mr Mahmood notes, these did not attract a large audience.
In fact, some 70% of the Pakistani movie industry's revenue is earned through Indian films, according to entertainment journalist Hassan Zaidi.
"This ban is just not sustainable," he said. "The film industry here cannot survive without Bollywood."


Why do we need to seek Kohli for inspiration? Was Kohli around when Imran Khan captained the team that won the world cup in 1992 ?
We have a PSL also ? Wasim
Akram will soon be on analytical TV shores here too.
Aaj toh Kohri, Rohit, Bumrah, Pant ka zamaana hai. Fans cant be satisfied with watching IK's recorded matches from 3 decades ago.
 

Baibars_1260

SENIOR MEMBER
Sep 12, 2020
2,177
0
2,051
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
Where does the article mention Pakistani army officers and men ?
I was referring to the situation after May 4 1948 to January 1949 when the Pakistani Armed forces held the Indian Army to a stalemate.
When did the regular Pakistan army indulge in murder, arson and rape in Kashmir?
For the record I condemn the savage actions of the irregulars tribal bands that were out of control.
If you count the actions of the irregulars as savagery than look at the whole picture what the Maharajas Dogra troops did in Jammu, Their atrocities are not pinned on the Indian Army who were supporting them initially.

Since this is getting into slug fest. Let me unload the barbarism of the Dogra pehredaar of the Raja here.
@peagle has all the sources .

We cannot be selective about the past in Jammu & Kashmir | Opinion

These days, we hear a lot about what happened to Kashmiri Pandits in 1990. It’s often described as “ethnic cleansing” and “genocide”. For some, it’s justification for the recent de-operationalisation of Article 370. But not a word is spoken about what happened to Muslims in Jammu five decades earlier. That’s been completely forgotten. Yet, as Wajahat Habibullah, who was divisional commissioner (Kashmir) in 1990, when the Pandits were targeted, tells me this was “even more a case of genocide or ethnic cleansing”.

1615263207934.jpeg



Habibullah puts the figures a little higher. He says the total number of Pandits in 1990 was 200,000. After the migration that year, 20,000 were left. Over the next quarter century, that’s come down to around 3,500 people.

I turn now to Jammu just after Independence in 1947. At the time, it was a Muslim-majority city. But literally, in weeks, communal riots, mass killings and forced migration turned it into a Hindu-majority one. Both contemporary accounts and those of historians put the numbers killed or expelled in hundreds of thousands.

Writing in The Spectator in January 1948, Horace Alexander says: “Hindus and Sikhs of the Jammu area … apparently with at least the tacit consent of state authorities, have driven many thousands of their Muslim neighbours from their homes”. Citing Mahatma Gandhi, he asserts “some two hundred thousand are … not accounted for”. Christopher Snedden, in Kashmir: The Unwritten History, estimates between 70,000 and 237,000 Muslims were killed. Arjun Appaduri and Arien Mack in India’s World believe 200,000 could have been killed and a further 500,000 displaced. Last year, the columnist Swaminathan Aiyar wrote: “In sheer scale this far exceeded the ethnic cleansing of Pandits five decades later”.

So why is a horror of this scale not remembered? Habibullah, who’s written about it in My Kashmir: The Dying of the Light, suggests two reasons. First, it occurred when communal riots and brutal massacres were happening right across northern India. In that bigger outrage, this smaller tragedy seems to have been forgotten.

His second reason is intriguing. Sheikh Abdullah, then the undisputed leader of the Kashmir Valley, who one would have expected to draw attention to this massacre, deliberately chose to ignore it because the Muslims of Jammu did not support his National Conference, but leaned towards Jinnah’s Muslim League. The Sheikh’s politics seems to have silenced his conscience.

I realise that in terms of how much has changed since 1990, leave aside 1947, India is a very different country today. I also accept we need to move on and must not keep reliving the past. But if we’re going to recall what’s happened to Pandits in 1990, then it’s wrong – actually immoral – not to remember what happened to Muslims in 1947.

This is not a matter of intellectual honesty, though it’s that as well. It goes far deeper. It touches upon the unity of the multiple peoples and their identities that constitute India. We need to be conscious of all of them. If our memory becomes selective, it also becomes one-sided and that could divide us. We could end up a very different country to the one we want to be.

Karan Thapar is the author of Devil’s Advocate: The Untold Story

The views expressed are personal
 

magra

FULL MEMBER
Aug 17, 2020
1,034
-1
512
Country
India
Location
United States
Where does the article mention Pakistani army officers and men ?
I was referring to the situation after May 4 1948 to January 1949 when the Pakistani Armed forces held the Indian Army to a stalemate.
When did the regular Pakistan army indulge in murder, arson and rape in Kashmir?
For the record I condemn the savage actions of the irregulars tribal bands that were out of control.
If you count the actions of the irregulars as savagery than look at the whole picture what the Maharajas Dogra troops did in Jammu, Their atrocities are not pinned on the Indian Army who were supporting them initially.

Since this is getting into slug fest. Let me unload the barbarism of the Dogra pehredaar of the Raja here.
@peagle has all the sources .
I would have to blame Pakistan too (along with Maharaja) for the murder, arson and rape in Kashmir as Pak sent its irregular forces supplying them with weapons inside Kashmir. You cant absolve Pakistan from that blame and continue blaming Maharaja in the same vein. Either both are guilty or none are.

Indian army entered J&K only after the dotted paper was signed and it immediately went on the task on pushing the rapists (Pak irregulars) back. When did they support Maharaja's forces initially? Can you please clarify.

Again, you failed to reply that atrocities were being committed on both sides of the borders due to partition induced madness. Should India have pushed into Lahore or Pakistan have pushed into Amritsar to stop that? If not, then the same logic to send in irregular forces in Kashmir (which did the very same thing they were sent to stop - rape, murdering innocents) was flawed.
Link

https://scroll.in/article/811468/the-killing-fields-of-jammu-when-it-was-muslims-who-were-eliminated




The killing fields of Jammu: How Muslims become a minority in the region

Official records have tried their utmost to suppress the details of a Muslim massacre.

Saeed Naqvi

Jul 10, 2016

What was the death toll in the killing fields of Jammu? There are no official figures, so one has to go by reports in the British press of that period. Horace Alexander’s article on 16 January 1948 in The Spectator is much quoted; he put the number killed at 200,000.

To quote a 10 August 1948 report published in The Times, London: “2,37,000 Muslims were systematically exterminated – unless they escaped to Pakistan along the border – by the forces of the Dogra State headed by the Maharaja in person and aided by Hindus and Sikhs. This happened in October 1947, five days before the Pathan invasion and nine days before the Maharaja’s accession to india.” Reportedly, as a result of the massacre/migration, Muslims who were a majority (61 per cent) in the Jammu region became a minority.

Mountbatten was in control in Delhi and had news of the genocide of Muslims in Jammu filtered out of the media. Sadly, there has been precious little discussion in India about this horrible phase of history.

Maharaja Hari Singh’s involvement, with the support of the RSS, is evident from a letter Jawaharlal Nehru wrote to Vallabhbhai Patel on 17 April 1949 (quoted in Frontline magazine):

In this (intelligence) report, among other things, a reference was made to a growing Hindu agitation in Jammu province for what is called a zonal plebiscite. This idea is based on the belief that a plebiscite for the whole of Kashmir is bound to be lost and, therefore, let us save Jammu at least. You will perhaps remember that some proposal of this kind was put forward by the Maharaja some months back. it seems to me that this kind of propaganda is very harmful, indeed, for us. Whatever may happen in the future, I do not think Jammu province is running away from us. If we want Jammu province by itself and are prepared to make a present of the rest of the State to Pakistan, I have no doubt we could clinch the issue in a few days. The prize we are fighting for is the valley of Kashmir. [This is what Nehru had dug in his heels for. The consequences are for all to see to this day.]

This propaganda for a zonal plebiscite is going on in Jammu, in Delhi and elsewhere. It is carried on by what is known as the Jammu Praja Parishad. Our intelligence officer reported that this Praja Parishad is financed by the Maharaja. Further, that the large sums collected for the Dharmarth Fund, which are controlled by the Maharaja, are being spent in propaganda for him.

The lid on these massacres was lifted by Ved Bhasin and a few journalists of that time. But like the collective silence over the pogrom in Hyderabad, the holocaust in Jammu has been a story hidden from public view by the machinations of the very people who covertly allowed the massacres to take place. These included many in the national leadership of the Congress party at the time. The events of Hyderabad and Jammu and Kashmir reveal the emergence in New Delhi of an establishment which was indifferent to Indian Muslims.

Consider the testimony of journalist Ved Bhasin. Here I am again quoting from his paper presented at the Jammu University in 2003.

Communal tension was building up in Jammu soon after the announcement of the Mountbatten plan with the Hindu Sabha, RSS and the Muslim Conference trying to incite communal passions. Tension increased with a large number of Hindus and Sikhs migrating to the State from Punjab and NWFP and even from areas now under Pakistan’s control. Trouble was brewing in Poonch, where a popular non-communal agitation was launched after the Maharaja’s administration took over the erstwhile jagir under its direct control and imposed some taxes. The mishandling of this agitation and use of brutal force by the Maharaja’s administration inflamed the passions, turning this non-communal struggle into a communal strife.

The Maharaja’s administration had not only asked all Muslims to surrender their arms but also demobilised a large number of Muslim soldiers in the Dogra army and the Muslim police officers, whose loyalty it suspected. The Maharaja’s visit to Bhimber was followed by large-scale killings.

Bhasin reports the large-scale killing of Muslims in Udhampur district, particularly in Udhampur proper, Chenani, Ramnagar and Reasi areas. Even in Bhaderwah (about 150 kilometres from Udhampur), a number of Muslims were victims of communal marauders. According to Bhasin, the RSS played a key role in these killings, aided by armed Sikh refugees “who even paraded the Jammu streets with their naked swords”. Some of those who led the riots in Udhampur and Bhaderwah later joined the National Conference and some even served as ministers. There were reports of Muslims massacred in Chhamb, Deva Batala, Manawsar and other parts of Akhnoor, with several of them fleeing to the other side or moving to Jammu. In Kathua district too there was the large-scale killing of Muslims and reports of women being raped and abducted.

As for the attitude of the state, Bhasin alleges that instead of preventing these communal killings and fostering an atmosphere of peace, “the Maharaja’s administration helped and even armed the communal marauders”. He goes on to say that many Muslims living outside Muslim-dominated areas were brutally killed by the rioters who moved freely in vehicles with arms and ammunition even when the city was officially under curfew. “The curfew it appeared was meant only to check the movement of Muslims,” he says.

Terrible carnage took place later when the Muslims in Talab Khatikan area were asked to surrender.

They were shifted to the police lines at Jogi gate, where now Delhi Public School is situated. Instead of providing them security, the administration encouraged them to go to Pakistan for safety. The first batch of several thousands of these Muslims were loaded in about sixty lorries to take them to Sialkot. Unaware of what is going to happen to them these families boarded the buses. The vehicles were escorted by troops. But when they reached near Chattha on Jammu-Sialkot road, in the outskirts of the city, a large number of armed RSS men and Sikh refugees were positioned there.

They were pulled out of the vehicles and killed mercilessly with the soldiers either joining [in] or looking [on] as idle spectators. The news about the massacre was kept a closely guarded secret. next day another batch of these Muslim families were similarly boarded in the vehicles and met the same fate. [T]hose who somehow managed to escape the wrath of killers reached Sialkot to narrate their tale of woe…



The state administration denied it had any role in the massacres. It even feigned ignorance of any plans to change the demography of the Jammu region. But Bhasin differs:

Though polite, he warned me of dire consequences…he first warned me by saying that “I could have put you behind bars for your nefarious activities. But since you also happen to be a Khatri like me and are also related to me, i am simply giving you advice. It is not the time to form peace committees and work for peace but to defend Hindus and Sikhs from the Muslim communalists who are planning to kill them and destabilise the situation. We have already formed a Hindu Sikh Defence Committee. You and your colleagues better support it.” Then he added, “We are imparting armed training to Hindu and Sikh boys in Rehari area. You and your colleagues should better join such training.” When i sent a colleague to the training camp the next day he found that some RSS youths and others were being given training in the use of .303 rifles by soldiers.


Another incident that I recall is about Mr Mehr Chand Mahajan (the then prime minister) who told a delegation of Hindus who met him in the palace when he arrived in Jammu that now when the power is being transferred to the people they should demand parity. [One] of them associated with National Conference asked how can they demand parity when there is so much difference in population ratio. Pointing to the Ramnagarrakh below, where some bodies of Muslims were still lying he said “the population ratio too can change”.

Mahatma Gandhi did comment on the situation in Jammu on 25 December 1947 and his remarks have found mention in volume 90 of his Collected Works: “The Hindus and Sikhs of Jammu and those who had gone there from outside killed Muslims. The Maharaja of Kashmir is responsible for what is happening there…Muslim women have been dishonoured.”

Excerpted with permission from Being the Other: the Muslim in India, Saeed Naqvi, Aleph Book Company.

Support our journalism by subscribing to Scroll+. We welcome your comments at letters@scroll.in.
This only proves the Maharaja's complicity in the communal violence during partition, which I have already acknowledged. Is there any other point you are trying to prove here?
 
Last edited:

magra

FULL MEMBER
Aug 17, 2020
1,034
-1
512
Country
India
Location
United States

We cannot be selective about the past in Jammu & Kashmir | Opinion

These days, we hear a lot about what happened to Kashmiri Pandits in 1990. It’s often described as “ethnic cleansing” and “genocide”. For some, it’s justification for the recent de-operationalisation of Article 370. But not a word is spoken about what happened to Muslims in Jammu five decades earlier. That’s been completely forgotten. Yet, as Wajahat Habibullah, who was divisional commissioner (Kashmir) in 1990, when the Pandits were targeted, tells me this was “even more a case of genocide or ethnic cleansing”.

View attachment 723098


Habibullah puts the figures a little higher. He says the total number of Pandits in 1990 was 200,000. After the migration that year, 20,000 were left. Over the next quarter century, that’s come down to around 3,500 people.

I turn now to Jammu just after Independence in 1947. At the time, it was a Muslim-majority city. But literally, in weeks, communal riots, mass killings and forced migration turned it into a Hindu-majority one. Both contemporary accounts and those of historians put the numbers killed or expelled in hundreds of thousands.

Writing in The Spectator in January 1948, Horace Alexander says: “Hindus and Sikhs of the Jammu area … apparently with at least the tacit consent of state authorities, have driven many thousands of their Muslim neighbours from their homes”. Citing Mahatma Gandhi, he asserts “some two hundred thousand are … not accounted for”. Christopher Snedden, in Kashmir: The Unwritten History, estimates between 70,000 and 237,000 Muslims were killed. Arjun Appaduri and Arien Mack in India’s World believe 200,000 could have been killed and a further 500,000 displaced. Last year, the columnist Swaminathan Aiyar wrote: “In sheer scale this far exceeded the ethnic cleansing of Pandits five decades later”.

So why is a horror of this scale not remembered? Habibullah, who’s written about it in My Kashmir: The Dying of the Light, suggests two reasons. First, it occurred when communal riots and brutal massacres were happening right across northern India. In that bigger outrage, this smaller tragedy seems to have been forgotten.

His second reason is intriguing. Sheikh Abdullah, then the undisputed leader of the Kashmir Valley, who one would have expected to draw attention to this massacre, deliberately chose to ignore it because the Muslims of Jammu did not support his National Conference, but leaned towards Jinnah’s Muslim League. The Sheikh’s politics seems to have silenced his conscience.

I realise that in terms of how much has changed since 1990, leave aside 1947, India is a very different country today. I also accept we need to move on and must not keep reliving the past. But if we’re going to recall what’s happened to Pandits in 1990, then it’s wrong – actually immoral – not to remember what happened to Muslims in 1947.

This is not a matter of intellectual honesty, though it’s that as well. It goes far deeper. It touches upon the unity of the multiple peoples and their identities that constitute India. We need to be conscious of all of them. If our memory becomes selective, it also becomes one-sided and that could divide us. We could end up a very different country to the one we want to be.

Karan Thapar is the author of Devil’s Advocate: The Untold Story

The views expressed are personal
This again is implicating the same monarch.
 

Baibars_1260

SENIOR MEMBER
Sep 12, 2020
2,177
0
2,051
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States

The forgotten massacre that ignited the Kashmir dispute
In November 1947, thousands of Muslims were killed in Jammu by paramilitaries led by the army of Dogra ruler Hari Singh.




Srinagar, Indian-administered Kashmir – The family of Israr Ahmad Khan lived through the massacre of Jammu in what was then part of the princely state of Kashmir. He recalls that many of his relatives were killed during the violence that followed months after British rule over Indian sub-continent ended.

“My father was young then and other immediate family members were in Kashmir at that time. But many of my relatives were brutally killed,” the 63-year-old told Al Jazeera.


The killings triggered a series of events, including a war between two newly independent nations of India and Pakistan, which gave birth to Kashmir dispute.

The killings took place when millions of Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs were crossing the border from the one side to the other, as part of British-designed plan to partition the subcontinent into India and Pakistan.

“The immediate impact (of partition) was in Jammu. The Muslim subjects from different parts of Jammu province were forcibly displaced by the Dogra Army in a programme of expulsion and murder carried out over three weeks between October-November 1947,” Idrees Kanth, a fellow at International Institute of Social History in Amsterdam, who researched the 1940s history of Kashmir, told Al Jazeera.

In mid-October, the Dogra Army troops began expelling Muslim villagers from Jammu province. The refugees were sent on foot toward West Punjab (later to form part of Pakistan), where most were accommodated in refugee camps in the districts of Sialkot, Jhelum, Gujrat and Rawalpindi.

On November 5, Kanth said, the Dogra Army soldiers began another organised evacuation of the Muslims but “instead of taking them to Sialkot, as they had been promised, the trucks drove them to forest hills of Rajouri districts of Jammu, where they were executed”.

Kanth added that there may have been a systematic attempt by the dying Dogra regime to ensure that records of the incident are destroyed and made it a lesser known massacre of the partition.

Demographic changes’
The historians say that the killings carried out by the Hindu ruler’s army and Sikh army was a “state sponsored genocide” to bring out demographic changes in Jammu – a region which had an overwhelming population of Muslims.

“The massacre of more than two lakh (two hundred thousands) Muslims was state-sponsored and state supported. The forces from Patiala Punjab were called in, RSS (a right-wing Hindu organisation) was brought to communalise the whole scenario and kill Muslims,” said PG Rasool, the author of a book The Historical Reality of Kashmir Dispute.

The Muslims, who constituted more than 60 percent of the population of Jammu region, were reduced to a minority after the killings and displacement.

He said that when the then Indian Prime Minister of India Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru and Kashmiri leader Sheikh Abdullah met a delegation of Muslims in Jammu, they were told about the “tragic events” but they preferred to remain silent.

“They didn’t want that people in Kashmir – which had a Muslim majority from the beginning – should know about it because it could have led to demonstrations. The state from the beginning has tried to cover up it. I don’t call it massacre but it was a staged genocide that is unfortunately not talked about,” he said.

They thought even if they lose Kashmir at least they should get Jammu and the only way was to have a Hindu majority.”

Muhammad Ashraf Wani, a professor of History at the University of Kashmir, said that the Muslims in Jammu “do not talk about it because they fear for their survival”.

“This is the worst tragedies in the history of Kashmir but unfortunately no one talks about it because the state doesn’t want anyone to remember it,” Wani said.

Khurram Parvez, a noted human rights defender in Kashmir, told Al Jazeera that the perpetual conflict in Kashmir has its roots in 1947 massacre. “It is deliberately forgotten. Actually, the violence of that massacre in 1947 continues. Those who were forced to migrate to Pakistan have never been allowed to return,” he said.

Five days after the Jammu killings, tribal militias from Pakistan’s North Western Frontier Province (now Khyber Pakhtunkhwa), where many of the Jammu Muslims had family ties, invaded Kashmir.

As the army of tribesmen rushed to Kashmir, the army of Dogra monarch fled to Jammu. The king Hari Singh signed the instrument of accession with New Delhi, which sent its army to fight the tribesmen.

The fighting of several weeks between tribesmen and Indian Army eventually led to first India-Pakistan war. When New Delhi and Islamabad agreed to a ceasefire in January 1948, the formerly princedom of Jammu and Kashmir was divided between the two countries.

The conflict born in 1947 has led to three wars between India and Pakistan. An estimated 70,000 people have been killed in the violence in past three decades since the armed revolt against Indian rule broke out in the region in 1989.

@peagle @PakistaniAtBahrain
 
Last edited:

magra

FULL MEMBER
Aug 17, 2020
1,034
-1
512
Country
India
Location
United States

The forgotten massacre that ignited the Kashmir dispute
In November 1947, thousands of Muslims were killed in Jammu by paramilitaries led by the army of Dogra ruler Hari Singh.




Srinagar, Indian-administered Kashmir – The family of Israr Ahmad Khan lived through the massacre of Jammu in what was then part of the princely state of Kashmir. He recalls that many of his relatives were killed during the violence that followed months after British rule over Indian sub-continent ended.

“My father was young then and other immediate family members were in Kashmir at that time. But many of my relatives were brutally killed,” the 63-year-old told Al Jazeera.


The killings triggered a series of events, including a war between two newly independent nations of India and Pakistan, which gave birth to Kashmir dispute.

The killings took place when millions of Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs were crossing the border from the one side to the other, as part of British-designed plan to partition the subcontinent into India and Pakistan.

“The immediate impact (of partition) was in Jammu. The Muslim subjects from different parts of Jammu province were forcibly displaced by the Dogra Army in a programme of expulsion and murder carried out over three weeks between October-November 1947,” Idrees Kanth, a fellow at International Institute of Social History in Amsterdam, who researched the 1940s history of Kashmir, told Al Jazeera.

In mid-October, the Dogra Army troops began expelling Muslim villagers from Jammu province. The refugees were sent on foot toward West Punjab (later to form part of Pakistan), where most were accommodated in refugee camps in the districts of Sialkot, Jhelum, Gujrat and Rawalpindi.

On November 5, Kanth said, the Dogra Army soldiers began another organised evacuation of the Muslims but “instead of taking them to Sialkot, as they had been promised, the trucks drove them to forest hills of Rajouri districts of Jammu, where they were executed”.

Kanth added that there may have been a systematic attempt by the dying Dogra regime to ensure that records of the incident are destroyed and made it a lesser known massacre of the partition.

Demographic changes’
The historians say that the killings carried out by the Hindu ruler’s army and Sikh army was a “state sponsored genocide” to bring out demographic changes in Jammu – a region which had an overwhelming population of Muslims.

“The massacre of more than two lakh (two hundred thousands) Muslims was state-sponsored and state supported. The forces from Patiala Punjab were called in, RSS (a right-wing Hindu organisation) was brought to communalise the whole scenario and kill Muslims,” said PG Rasool, the author of a book The Historical Reality of Kashmir Dispute.

The Muslims, who constituted more than 60 percent of the population of Jammu region, were reduced to a minority after the killings and displacement.

He said that when the then Indian Prime Minister of India Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru and Kashmiri leader Sheikh Abdullah met a delegation of Muslims in Jammu, they were told about the “tragic events” but they preferred to remain silent.

“They didn’t want that people in Kashmir – which had a Muslim majority from the beginning – should know about it because it could have led to demonstrations. The state from the beginning has tried to cover up it. I don’t call it massacre but it was a staged genocide that is unfortunately not talked about,” he said.

They thought even if they lose Kashmir at least they should get Jammu and the only way was to have a Hindu majority.”

Muhammad Ashraf Wani, a professor of History at the University of Kashmir, said that the Muslims in Jammu “do not talk about it because they fear for their survival”.

“This is the worst tragedies in the history of Kashmir but unfortunately no one talks about it because the state doesn’t want anyone to remember it,” Wani said.

Khurram Parvez, a noted human rights defender in Kashmir, told Al Jazeera that the perpetual conflict in Kashmir has its roots in 1947 massacre. “It is deliberately forgotten. Actually, the violence of that massacre in 1947 continues. Those who were forced to migrate to Pakistan have never been allowed to return,” he said.

Five days after the Jammu killings, tribal militias from Pakistan’s North Western Frontier Province (now Khyber Pakhtunkhwa), where many of the Jammu Muslims had family ties, invaded Kashmir.

As the army of tribesmen rushed to Kashmir, the army of Dogra monarch fled to Jammu. The king Hari Singh signed the instrument of accession with New Delhi, which sent its army to fight the tribesmen.

The fighting of several weeks between tribesmen and Indian Army eventually led to first India-Pakistan war. When New Delhi and Islamabad agreed to a ceasefire in January 1948, the formerly princedom of Jammu and Kashmir was divided between the two countries.

The conflict born in 1947 has led to three wars between India and Pakistan. An estimated 70,000 people have been killed in the violence in past three decades since the armed revolt against Indian rule broke out in the region in 1989.
Can I now qualify this as trolling.
You are putting out post after post on the same topic on which there is no dispute. Everyone agrees that Maharaja was complicit in the communal violence during partition.
 

Baibars_1260

SENIOR MEMBER
Sep 12, 2020
2,177
0
2,051
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
I would have to blame Pakistan too (along with Maharaja) for the murder, arson and rape in Kashmir as Pak sent its irregular forces supplying them with weapons inside Kashmir. You cant absolve Pakistan from that blame and continue blaming Maharaja in the same vein. Either both are guilty or none are.
Exactly ! You cant blame Pakistan for responding when the Maharaja started a genocide of his own subjects with regular state forces. I blame the irregulars ( not the Pakistan army ) for atrocities in revenge for the genocide in Jammu.

Indian army entered J&K only after the dotted paper was signed and it immediately went on the task on pushing the rapists (Pak irregulars) back. When did they support Maharaja's forces initially? Can you please clarify.
There were a large number of Indian army officers serving with the Maharaja's forces like Brigadier Rajinder Singh, and Lt. General Katoch. They were as much involved in the Jammu genocide as anyone else.

Again, you failed to reply that atrocities were being committed on both sides of the borders due to partition induced madness. Should India have pushed into Lahore or Pakistan have pushed into Amritsar to stop that? If not, then the same logic to send in irregular forces in Kashmir (which did the very same thing they were sent to stop - rape, murdering innocents) was flawed.
Those massacres were being committed by civilian mobs and both the Indian and Pakistani armies at that time were involved in controlling the massacres without bias and also cooperating in transfer of refugees. Both armies remained professional with a significant number of British officers serving on both sides. There is no record of the Indian Army killing Muslims, and nor is there any record of Pakistani soldiers killing Hindus. To the best of their ability riots were being controlled by the use of force as necessary without discrimination or bias. There was no need for either side to invade.

Kashmir was different. The Maharaja's official Dogra Army was killing its own subjects in collusion with fascist savage religiously fundamentalist mobs. Which is why even the Hindu majority Indian Army treated them with disdain. If India had a moral case in Kashmir it would have sought UN intervention to recover Azad Kashmir just as South Korea sought UN assistance to expel communists from Seoul. India did nothing except agree to amorphous terms of a plebiscite it never intended to honor. Because of the Jammu genocide the UN and the world were not going to side with India and force Pakistan to vacate Kashmir. The UN has acted in Cyprus, or the expulsion of invading forces elsewhere, such as Iraq in Kuwait. The UN could have passed a resolution demanding Pakistan vacate Kashmir. It didn't precisely because of the Jammu genocide. The UN did nothing in 1947 , and will do nothing in the future. India is not getting Azad Kashmir back, even if carries out another genocide in the Valley if it so chooses.
@peagle @PakistaniAtBahrain
 
Last edited:

Baibars_1260

SENIOR MEMBER
Sep 12, 2020
2,177
0
2,051
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
Pakistani cinemas need to show at least 26 new films a year to stay in business.
But Pakistan's own film industry has only been producing 12 to 15 annually. And, Mr Mahmood notes, these did not attract a large audience.
In fact, some 70% of the Pakistani movie industry's revenue is earned through Indian films, according to entertainment journalist Hassan Zaidi.
"This ban is just not sustainable," he said. "The film industry here cannot survive without Bollywood."
So Pakistanis are going to watch Uri, Border, and Lakshya and cheer for the Indian Army ?

But they have nothing else to watch .

 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 1, Members: 0, Guests: 1)


Top Bottom