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How to beat the "1971Civil War " Psychological Syndrome !

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Give me a credible source to prove that in 1948 India objected to follow Step 2 after Pak's Step 1
Korbel, Josef (May 1949), "The Kashmir Dispute and the United Nations"

Did I not accept India's mistake in the non-transparent 1987 Kashmir elections? Am I not accepting collateral damages where innocent Kashmiris have to suffer as well?
i said, you always blame Pakistan when the issue is Pakistan vs India, not India vs Kashmir.

Did you let Kashmiris decide in 1948? No.
come and see if Azad Kashmir and Gilgit feel unhappy. come and see if we do lockdowns, communication blackouts, kidnapping, rapes, killings, etc.

Did you maintain demographics on your side? No, you allowed non-Kashmiris to settle in Kashmir.
as far as i know, we still have the law that says no Pakistani can buy land anywhere in Kashmir. so i dont see how the demographics can change by no influx of non-Kashmiris from our side. India is the one trying to do demographic change right now by bringing in non-Kashmiris into IOK.

Did you leave Kashmir unchanged? No. you gave away Shaksgam valley to China.
practically no one lives there. its empty land.

After that, Kashmiri Pandits on this side were driven away.
they are welcome back.

Kashmiris themselves were happy with India till late 80s before the violence spiralled. May be once the violence dies down in a decade or two, cooler heads can debate on what Kashmiris want.
Kashmiris werent happy with India. that is why article 370 existed.

Kashmiris themselves were happy with India till late 80s before the violence spiralled. May be once the violence dies down in a decade or two, cooler heads can debate on what Kashmiris want.
if having to do lockdowns, communication blackouts, killings, rapes, kidnappings, banning political parties, arresting politicians, rigging elections, etc is not a sign of what Kashmiris want, then spare me your so-called consideration for the will of the people.

What is China's role in Kashmir other than you gifting Shaksgam valley and we losing Aksai Chin?
CPEC is connected to China through roads in Gilgit and another road is going to be paved in Kashmir to China. India threatens all this, and CPEC is very important to China.
 
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Baibars_1260

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I am having a distinct feeling that you are hardening your stance on this thread to prove your nationalistic credentials to fellow Pakistanis, lest they reject you.
"Rejection " is not my concern. Exposing the "logic "behind your statements is.
You have conveniently overlooked and sidetracked your parliament resolution.

Regarding your trade with China - a single highway on mountain passes - I wonder how much overland trade you are having by that route
Keep wondering. Not here to search and educate you..Hint: The M-11 missiles we got came in that way.

Trade with Afghanistan - the country has demanded 2 way transit trade with India through Pak - and that is Afg's condition for allowing your transit trade with Central Asia through Afg.
Afghanistan will have a new government with a different policy soon. We have alternate routes into Central Asia.
The elephant in the room is China, who is co-opting Afghanistan into the BRI. Here are the plans for Afghanistan.


trade with Central Asia through Afg. So will you lose out on Turkey and beyond thing.
Reality check ( snapping my fingers here ). What India wishes for doesn't happen. Will lose out to Turkey ? Don't know what gains India is making with Turkey itself ?

Once again: The elephant in the room is China.



Your relations with Iran are not all hunky dory. With the sensible Biden admin in place, Chhabahar will be back on track, which means Gwadar's fortunes in jeopardy.
Dream on.
Reality check : The elephant in the room is China.



You give too much importance to your country.

One more reality check :

Hopefully none of your cricketers will ever set foot in this stadium:


1615104828859.png
 
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Baibars_1260

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@magra

We wrested away the best of Kashmir below. Peaceful, clean and serene.

1615105071166.jpeg



1615105188920.jpeg

We ski as well !

1615105261195.jpeg


1615105291417.jpeg



Just, to think we could have lost all this just defending the swamp in the east.
But Sam Bahadur signed these away in 1972, after (as the Japanese say), getting an "honorable kick in the pants "

873DD1A3-1B62-4EFC-9417-E303F39077F4.jpeg
 
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peagle

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Of course I can see what is happening. What I want to understand is the mindset, which is why I am engaging. Basically whom am I talking to?
All Indians across the ideological spectrum are sold on the idea of the destruction of Pakistan. Am I talking to a centrist Congress person or a left wing secularist, or a BJP RSS bot. Even the present generation Indian Muslims are sold on the idea that their woes are because of Pakistan and if Pakistan miraculously vanished so would their problems.

We can't have conversations with RSS bots and their 1000 year revenge theories. At least the conversation so far has been kept secular. As I have said before we must keep talking even if we never agree.




Answer:
( Don't have to type so much ).

India Pakistan is in a defensive war to hold on to what we have. Defense is always easier to win than attack. Kashmir (indian Pakistani side) is a jugular vein for Indians Pakistanis too. We consider Kashmir as the head of our body. No amount of attritional warfare will force India Pakistan to give up Kashmir. It will only unite Indians Pakistanis more and steel our resolve to hold on. If you want to fight for 1000 years, we can do so too.

Tell that to Amit Shah when he made this statement.
Indians of every background hate Pakistan, it does not matter if they are leftist, centrist or rightist, secular or religious, it is that hate that gives them an identity, it gives them a sense of nationhood.

I wrote a thought-provoking post long ago when I joined here, I'll try to find it. even Obama in his recent book said the quickest way to national unity in India is hate towards Pakistan.

The only difference is, some hate more and some hate less, but it is so pervasive that it is part of the Indian soul, without hate towards Pakistan, they have nothing. You cannot judge the entire country by the few individuals you have known. But, I am certain even with them, if you think back, you will find condescending remarks about Pakistan, they can't help it, it's a nation built on hate.

I understand you want to communicate, but you do not communicate by diluting your own point of view, one becomes weaker, and it emboldens their ego and reinforces their fantasies. I am not saying one needs to be like them and lie, no, just be fair in evaluating history, providing a statement to reach an incomplete conclusion is being unfair to yourself and your nation. They lie and by hook or crook only want their fantasy story to be told, so one needs to be mindful by not feeding their lies.
 

peagle

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My reply below applies to a large majority of Indians, one to one they like Pakistanis as we like them, but their views of us as a collective, as Pakistanis (collective) rather than just Pakistani (individual), tend to be very different, the hatred for Pakistan as a state or a nation reaches another level altogether.

So, it is important to differentiate this triangular dichotomy in how they view us. And I believe it is by design, maybe not by individuals but the government, intellectuals, and media have reinforced this separation over the past decades into the Indian mindset. I don’t care why it is there, it is there and should be recognised as a source of hatred.

It is designed to assuage the average Pakistani to say you are ok, it’s just your society, government, army, or country that we hate. So the person at an individual level does not feel insulted. It is like saying you are ok but your mother or father is scum, and your family are a bunch of tramps.
It is such a refined attack, that we have adopted it into our mindset. The people are good but everything else is bad, but you are part of the “everything”, that collective being criticised, you are a part of that collective. You are being criticised.

I will keep everything condensed, with the expectation I am among a knowledgeable group.

  • How Does an Indian mind works?
Firstly, creates a historical link into the imagined ancient past in order to justify the modern Indian states historical foundation, a Bharat Mata if you will, even though the term only came into being just 100 years prior but the imagery is that they have existed till the dawn of time as a nation(for those who are not clear, India is only as old as Pakistan).

Secondly, Like the Huns for Romans, the Russian bear for British Raj, the Red Soviets for America, the othering of Pakistan as an evil entity such as Lanka in the Ramayana and Mahabharata, a modern-day Lanka to create a sense of unity among the people, us vs. them, we are civilised they are terrorist etc etc. The modern-day Lanka without which the Indian identity would be weak. It has helped in creating a sense of indianness since its independence and still in play, that’s why Pakistan bashing gets votes at every election.

Thirdly, the dream of a great superpower the world worships, India itself is a Godly figure for the world, the imagery of that imagination. So the historical link with the ancient past, the creation (in their mindset) of Lanka (Pakistan) for the modern age, and the religious Godly superpower that is India to complete the fantasy of the Indian mind. The past, present, and the future.

  • Do we fully understand Indianness?
We never have, and still don’t, but there is an increasing number of viewpoints that are coming forward that shows that an enlightened thinker is awaking among Pakistanis. But any thought, idea or conclusion is only alive as long as the masses absorb it, which takes time.

So far we have only recognised India in the same mindset in which they created for themselves (lazy intellectualism) and put three labels on India for ourselves, democracy, liberalism, and secular. No one questioned if these are indeed factual labels for India. Why are there hundreds of riots every year since independence ( doesn't happen in Pakistan), why did a secular supreme court make religious rulings, such as the one in 1994 that declared that a mosque is not an essential part of Islam (one would think it’s a joke? But it’s not), why is there such high level of criminality among Indian Politician’s, where murderers and rapists are sitting in the legislatures (accounting for 30% of membership on average), endless examples, stories, and facts, but we never questioned.

But, we have started to do so, we did not recognise them but have started to. Those doubters who were still unsure, we have to love modi; he kicked any doubt that was left out of their minds. Thank you a million times my great Modi gg, please come have some tea.

  • Can we try to see things from their perspective to be able to better counter it?
When we did not attack in their war with China in 1962, that was us seeing it from their perspective (we got 1971), when we offered a no-war pact, we were seeing it from their perspective (we got Siachen), when we had proof they were conducting terrorism in Pakistan during the 1960s and 70s and didn't pay in kind, we were seeing it from their perspective (we got training for MQM, creation of Baloch groups, endless other examples), when we offered to negotiate more often than was necessary and took part in empty negotiations we were seeing it from their perspective (we got support for further terror, including TTP). We have tried.

But, for them the only Pakistan they want to see is a Pakistan on its knees, nothing else will do. Balakot is a prime, most recent example. They only understand strength. The only perspective we need to show them is to get our economy in shape, build intellectual capacity and unity, and stand tall, then they will be happy to talk with you for actual solutions. If you bend as a mark of respect, they will be unzipping the trouser. I don’t say to be disrespectful but as a recognition of the Indian mindset.

  • How can we dissect this ObssessiveCompulsiveness to be SuperPower by the good Indians?
By not playing nice, by getting our house in order, by stop complaining about everything under the sun, by developing as we did before, by helping to bring peace in Afghanistan, it is more important for us than to them. I could go on but you understand my meaning.

There is nothing we need to do for them, but stand strong from our side, make the required adjustment internally so that we are able to stand strong. The following will create a strong reaction, but please forget historical corruption, make laws and let the law take its course, it is more important to make sure corruption does not happen again than to recover money and punish historical corruption, it wastes more time, more money and creates instability.

It may not sound ideal but we are living in the real world, if you want results then we need to take result-oriented actions. You go after everyone you will have no one left. Where is the unity? Where is the development?

@Baibars_1260
 
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It is designed to assuage the average Pakistani to say you are ok, it’s just your society, government, army, or country that we hate. So the person at an individual level does not feel insulted. It is like saying you are ok but your mother or father is scum, and your family are a bunch of tramps.
It is such a refined attack, that we have adopted it into our mindset.
i agree. in the point i highlighted we see this all the time when our celebrities go to India (actors, singers, cricketers). doesnt help when they bend over for the indians so that they can more work and more money in india. it feeds into the indian mindset that some people are ok, but the majority and pakistan's national identity is all wrong.
 

Baibars_1260

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My reply below applies to a large majority of Indians, one to one they like Pakistanis as we like them, but their views of us as a collective, as Pakistanis (collective) rather than just Pakistani (individual), tend to be very different, the hatred for Pakistan as a state or a nation reaches another level altogether.

So, it is important to differentiate this triangular dichotomy in how they view us. And I believe it is by design, maybe not by individuals but the government, intellectuals, and media have reinforced this separation over the past decades into the Indian mindset. I don’t care why it is there, it is there and should be recognised as a source of hatred.

It is designed to assuage the average Pakistani to say you are ok, it’s just your society, government, army, or country that we hate. So the person at an individual level does not feel insulted. It is like saying you are ok but your mother or father is scum, and your family are a bunch of tramps.
It is such a refined attack, that we have adopted it into our mindset. The people are good but everything else is bad, but you are part of the “everything”, that collective being criticised, you are a part of that collective. You are being criticised.

I will keep everything condensed, with the expectation I am among a knowledgeable group.

  • How Does an Indian mind works?
Firstly, creates a historical link into the imagined ancient past in order to justify the modern Indian states historical foundation, a Bharat Mata if you will, even though the term only came into being just 100 years prior but the imagery is that they have existed till the dawn of time as a nation(for those who are not clear, India is only as old as Pakistan).

Secondly, Like the Huns for Romans, the Russian bear for British Raj, the Red Soviets for America, the othering of Pakistan as an evil entity such as Lanka in the Ramayana and Mahabharata, a modern-day Lanka to create a sense of unity among the people, us vs. them, we are civilised they are terrorist etc etc. The modern-day Lanka without which the Indian identity would be weak. It has helped in creating a sense of indianness since its independence and still in play, that’s why Pakistan bashing gets votes at every election.

Thirdly, the dream of a great superpower the world worships, India itself is a Godly figure for the world, the imagery of that imagination. So the historical link with the ancient past, the creation (in their mindset) of Lanka (Pakistan) for the modern age, and the religious Godly superpower that is India to complete the fantasy of the Indian mind. The past, present, and the future.

  • Do we fully understand Indianness?
We never have, and still don’t, but there is an increasing number of viewpoints that are coming forward that shows that an enlightened thinker is awaking among Pakistanis. But any thought, idea or conclusion is only alive as long as the masses absorb it, which takes time.

So far we have only recognised India in the same mindset in which they created for themselves (lazy intellectualism) and put three labels on India for ourselves, democracy, liberalism, and secular. No one questioned if these are indeed factual labels for India. Why are there hundreds of riots every year since independence ( doesn't happen in Pakistan), why did a secular supreme court make religious rulings, such as the one in 1994 that declared that a mosque is not an essential part of Islam (one would think it’s a joke? But it’s not), why is there such high level of criminality among Indian Politician’s, where murderers and rapists are sitting in the legislatures (accounting for 30% of membership on average), endless examples, stories, and facts, but we never questioned.

But, we have started to do so, we did not recognise them but have started to. Those doubters who were still unsure, we have to love modi; he kicked any doubt that was left out of their minds. Thank you a million times my great Modi gg, please come have some tea.

  • Can we try to see things from their perspective to be able to better counter it?
When we did not attack in their war with China in 1962, that was us seeing it from their perspective (we got 1971), when we offered a no-war pact, we were seeing it from their perspective (we got Siachen), when we had proof they were conducting terrorism in Pakistan during the 1960s and 70s and didn't pay in kind, we were seeing it from their perspective (we got training for MQM, creation of Baloch groups, endless other examples), when we offered to negotiate more often than was necessary and took part in empty negotiations we were seeing it from their perspective (we got support for further terror, including TTP). We have tried.

But, for them the only Pakistan they want to see is a Pakistan on its knees, nothing else will do. Balakot is a prime, most recent example. They only understand strength. The only perspective we need to show them is to get our economy in shape, build intellectual capacity and unity, and stand tall, then they will be happy to talk with you for actual solutions. If you bend as a mark of respect, they will be unzipping the trouser. I don’t say to be disrespectful but as a recognition of the Indian mindset.

  • How can we dissect this ObssessiveCompulsiveness to be SuperPower by the good Indians?
By not playing nice, by getting our house in order, by stop complaining about everything under the sun, by developing as we did before, by helping to bring peace in Afghanistan, it is more important for us than to them. I could go on but you understand my meaning.

There is nothing we need to do for them, but stand strong from our side, make the required adjustment internally so that we are able to stand strong. The following will create a strong reaction, but please forget historical corruption, make laws and let the law take its course, it is more important to make sure corruption does not happen again than to recover money and punish historical corruption, it wastes more time, more money and creates instability.

It may not sound ideal but we are living in the real world, if you want results then we need to take result-oriented actions. You go after everyone you will have no one left. Where is the unity? Where is the development?

@Baibars_1260
👍👍👍I enjoyed your post so much could fill this post with thumbs up Emojis.
There is a reason why this particular thread intended only for Pakistanis has attracted so many Indian members.
Normally it shouldn't matter to a "victor" in a war whether the "defeated" nation remembers or forgets the war. Europe today has moved on from both World War 1 and World War 2. Even the ritual VE and VJ day celebrations have become stale. France's defeat at Waterloo, and the British defeat at Hastings is for the history buffs only. France and Britain are allies and so is Germany. Even most of the Muslim majority countries do not harp on their multiple defeats, devastations, at the hands of the Mongols, and Mongolia today even has Muslim minority amongst its population.

The Indian mindset is different. It revels in the past with historical revisionism twisted, and propagated to fuel anger and hatred against Muslims and Muslims alone. They live in a time machine dialing the clock to events hundreds of years back and conditioning their minds to view the present.

Here is a parallel:
The French from Normandy defeated the British Anglo Saxons at the Battle of Hastings in 1066 C.E. around the same era when Mahmud of Ghazni conquered Gujarat in India in 1030 C.E. The British and French have long since moved on but Gujarat and the Somnath Temple 990 years later remains in the Indian mindset and the vengeance must be wreaked on Pakistan, its population and India's own Muslim population.
Which is why it is not a matter of Jammu and Kashmir, Babri Masjid, Sir Creek that will end the enmity. The Indian animosity is not based on anything that can be redressed today, unless some one can invent a time machine that will overcome the grandfather paradox and Assadudin Owaisi can go back in time to plead with Mahmud of Ghazni to spare Somnath.
Unfortunately, comedy aside the hysteria of historical revisionism goes beyond delusional because you have a fascist state equipped with nuclear weapons believing it can magically win a nuclear conflict.

Here is a further classification of the Indian mindset. I am concentrating on the centrist Congress and Left of Center mindset. We won't discuss the Hindutva mindset because we know how that works.

The Congress Centrist Mindset
@magra @jamahir @UDAYCAMPUS

The Indian Centrists don't really accept Pakistan as a viable sovereign state. To them Pakistan is a historical anomaly and aberration, and it must be tolerated until such time the absurdity of whole idea of Pakistan is evident to its population.

A military "defeat" has been delivered to Pakistan from which it will never recover, and that defeat is sufficient to see it wither away in time.
However isolating Pakistan is not a good idea because by this very act Pakistan will survive because it will find allies who are hostile to India. Post-1972 India tried just that.

Further military action is unproductive. Even if Pakistan is military weakened and territorial concessions are forced on it, a final collapse and reintegration will be a distant dream. It will at best be a giant Kashmir, needing millions of troops to hold it down. But there are other ways. Cultural links, trade and people to people contact and making Pakistan dependent and integrated with the Indian economy is key to unraveling it. Pakistan will in time be inclined to make major territorial concessions on its own, because India will win the psychological game. Future territorial concessions Pakistan makes ( essentially the surrender of Azad Kashmir), must be done without the optics of the 1971 East Pakistan surrender, and signed away by a treaty of "Peace and Cooperation" to make the Pakistani population "feel good".

With the cause for conflict eliminated the Pakistan Armed Forces can be "defanged " and reduced to a lightly armed security force like Germany's armed forces in 1919.

Long term Pakistan's population must be culturally and linguistically associated with Indian Muslims, and they must identify with Muslims in India
" You are Muslims, we have Muslims " wrote a poster here.

This a long term ten year Project dependent of course on the Congress returning to power. Note that Bangladesh figures nowhere in the calculations. It can be left alone as another Bhutan or Nepal.

Why does India want Pakistan ?
Pakistan is a major prize and in the minds of the centrists essential to India achieving a true big power status controlling a key Muslim majority territory. The impact on 55 Muslim majority countries will be huge. The gateway to Central Asia will be open

There is a Century India project that is hoped to be completed by 2030.
 
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peagle

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i agree. in the point i highlighted we see this all the time when our celebrities go to India (actors, singers, cricketers). doesnt help when they bend over for the indians so that they can more work and more money in india. it feeds into the indian mindset that some people are ok, but the majority and pakistan's national identity is all wrong.
Personally, I support that,
we should go, they should come. It is important to be clear in our stance and show maturity.

We cannot deny our cultural links with the rest of South Asia, neither can we deny a shared regional history. Not Indian, but regional, because there has never been a historical state of India or Indian nationhood. India complicated the shared past by adopting the name India, which it should not have done.

You cannot live by ignoring your neighbours, that's no life, so stand our ground, but always have the hand of friendship ready, close that into a fist whenever the need arises.
 

peagle

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👍👍👍I enjoyed your post so much could fill this post with thumbs up Emojis.
There is a reason why this particular thread intended only for Pakistanis has attracted so many Indian members.
Normally it shouldn't matter to a "victor" in a war whether the "defeated" nation remembers or forgets the war. Europe today has moved on from both World War 1 and World War 2. Even the ritual VE and VJ day celebrations have become stale. France's defeat at Waterloo, and the British defeat at Hastings is for the history buffs only. France and Britain are allies and so is Germany. Even most of the Muslim majority countries do not harp on their multiple defeats, devastations, at the hands of the Mongols, and Mongolia today even has Muslim minority amongst its population.

The Indian mindset is different. It revels in the past with historical revisionism twisted, and propagated to fuel anger and hatred against Muslims and Muslims alone. They live in a time machine dialing the clock to events hundreds of years back and conditioning their minds to view the present.

Here is a parallel:
The French from Normandy defeated the British Anglo Saxons at the Battle of Hastings in 1066 C.E. around the same era when Mahmud of Ghazni conquered Gujarat in India in 1030 C.E. The British and French have long since moved on but Gujarat and the Somnath Temple 990 years later remains in the Indian mindset and the vengeance must be wreaked on Pakistan, its population and India's own Muslim population.
Which is why it is not a matter of Jammu and Kashmir, Babri Masjid, Sir Creek that will end the enmity. The Indian animosity is not based on anything that can be redressed today, unless some one can invent a time machine that will overcome the grandfather paradox and Assadudin Owaisi can go back in time to plead with Mahmud of Ghazni to spare Somnath.
Unfortunately, comedy aside the hysteria of historical revisionism goes beyond delusional because you have a fascist state equipped with nuclear weapons believing it can magically win a nuclear conflict.

Here is a further classification of the Indian mindset. I am concentrating on the centrist Congress and Left of Center mindset. We won't discuss the Hindutva mindset because we know how that works.

The Congress Centrist Mindset
@magra @jamahir @UDAYCAMPUS

The Indian Centrists don't really accept Pakistan as a viable sovereign state. To them Pakistan is a historical anomaly and aberration, and it must be tolerated until such time the absurdity of whole idea of Pakistan is evident to its population.

A military "defeat" has been delivered to Pakistan from which it will never recover, and that defeat is sufficient to see it wither away in time.
However isolating Pakistan is not a good idea because by this very act Pakistan will survive because it will find allies who are hostile to India.

Further military action is unproductive. Even if Pakistan is military weakened and territorial concessions are forced on it, a final collapse and reintegration will be a distant dream. It will at best be a giant Kashmir, needing millions of troops to hold it down. But there are other ways. Cultural links, trade and people to people contact and making Pakistan dependent and integrated with the Indian economy is key to unraveling it. Pakistan will in time be inclined to make major territorial concessions on its own, because India will win the psychological game. Future territorial concessions Pakistan makes ( essentially the surrender of Azad Kashmir), must be done without the optics of the 1971 East Pakistan surrender, and signed away by a treaty of "Peace and Cooperation" to make the Pakistani population "feel good".

With the cause for conflict eliminated the Pakistan Armed Forces can be "defanged " and reduced to a lightly armed security force like Germany's armed forces in 1919.

Long term Pakistan's population must be culturally and linguistically associated with Indian Muslims, and they must identify with Muslims in India
" You are Muslims, we have Muslims " wrote a poster here.

This a long term ten year Project dependent of course on the Congress returning to power. Note that Bangladesh figures nowhere in the calculations. It can be left alone as another Bhutan or Nepal.

Why does India want Pakistan ?
Pakistan is a major prize and in the minds of the centrists essential to India achieving a true big power status controlling a key Muslim majority territory. The impact on 55 Muslim majority countries will be huge. The gateway to Central Asia will be open

There is a Century India project that is hoped to be completed by 2030.
It s one thing to recognise their mindset, but it is quiet another to give it any importance.
Neither India nor Pakistan is older than 1947 because neither ever existed as a state.

Pakistan can claim a direct historical link back to the Indus Valley Civilization, that's a deeper and older history than India. The people of Pakistan have a lot more commonalities among themselves than the people f India. Rest is just drama.

At independence, India's future was secure because it inherited a functioning state, that everybody in the world wanted to survive and function, to stand against communism and China. No-one expected Pakistan to survive more than a few years, literally no one, because Pakistan did not inherit anything that was functional, nothing.

But in 1948, Pakistan's future was set in stone, when after the chief of the army refused a direct order to attack, and the fledgeling state was able to stand up to a neighbour 10 times its size and keep hold of Azad Kashmir, with no money and 7 million refugees, that was the moment when Pakistan became a nation. Nations are never quiet, and Pakistanis are a vibrate lot, so there is always drama, but the idea of Pakistan is set in stone, and there is no country on earth that can do anything, let alone India.
 

Baibars_1260

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I agree. in the point i highlighted we see this all the time when our celebrities go to India (actors, singers, cricketers). doesnt help when they bend over for the indians so that they can more work and more money in india. it feeds into the indian mindset that some people are ok, but the majority and pakistan's national identity is all wrong.
The danger of "soft power " is extreme, and in today's world with social media even more so. . The Soviet Union was undone partly because of "soft power ".
With India its not just celebrities but more sinister soft mass contact such as "medical visas". India scores over us here.

The BJP government in India is the best thing that ever happened to Pakistan. Very few in Pakistan want to have anything to do with India. The "same-people-same-culture " bots are silent.
Wish Mr. Modi a long and happy life in power.
 

magra

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Korbel, Josef (May 1949), "The Kashmir Dispute and the United Nations"
Cant find with that. Can you give a link?

i said, you always blame Pakistan when the issue is Pakistan vs India, not India vs Kashmir.
I will accept India's mistake when there is one in India vs Pak. Why dont you be direct in telling me about those.

come and see if Azad Kashmir and Gilgit feel unhappy. come and see if we do lockdowns, communication blackouts, kidnapping, rapes, killings, etc.
ya sure. Even if what you say may be true, that part of Kashmir did not have to deal with your irregulars infiltrating and causing troubles with the security forces.

as far as i know, we still have the law that says no Pakistani can buy land anywhere in Kashmir. so i dont see how the demographics can change by no influx of non-Kashmiris from our side.
Are you going to tell me that no non-Kashmiris have settled into your side of Kashmir since 1947 and the demographic distribution is same?

India is the one trying to do demographic change right now by bringing in non-Kashmiris into IOK.
No one's bringing anyone. People who have been living there for decades (such as refugees from the time of partition) are now being given the right to own property there like others. We do not owe an explanation to anyone. Indian Kashmir is India's and the time has come for total integration.

practically no one lives there. its empty land.
So that is your excuse to give away part of Kashmir to China?

Kashmiris werent happy with India. that is why article 370 existed.
Article 370 existed as a temporary measure so that final decision could be taken after plebiscite. Thanks to Pak's refusal to act on UN resolution 1948, that never happened. Kashmir could not be run on temporary basis forever, so the article has now been removed.

CPEC is connected to China through roads in Gilgit and another road is going to be paved in Kashmir to China. India threatens all this, and CPEC is very important to China.
Yes, and thats why sooner or later, China would 'advise' Pak to take the deal and remove the uncertainty on CPEC.
 

magra

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"Rejection " is not my concern. Exposing the "logic "behind your statements is.
You have conveniently overlooked and sidetracked your parliament resolution.
Is it not obvious that until the border issue is settled, India would not relinquish its claim on the entirety of J&K, hence the parliament resolution.

Keep wondering. Not here to search and educate you..Hint: The M-11 missiles we got came in that way.
Say directly whatever you got to say.

Afghanistan will have a new government with a different policy soon. We have alternate routes into Central Asia.
The elephant in the room is China, who is co-opting Afghanistan into the BRI. Here are the plans for Afghanistan.
So you the think the new Afghan govt will ignore the trade interests of Afghanistan and work as Pak's younger brother?

Don't know what gains India is making with Turkey itself ?
Once again: The elephant in the room is China.
Yes, you have one card in the pocket and with no insurance policy. Dont come crying when their purpose is over with you, like you cried when America ditched you.

You give too much importance to your country.
Ofcourse I consider my country to be important. Whereas you have pinned all hopes on the govt (not Pak govt, but Chinese govt).

Hopefully none of your cricketers will ever set foot in this stadium:
Whats wrong with the stadium?
@magra

We wrested away the best of Kashmir below. Peaceful, clean and serene.

View attachment 722650


View attachment 722651
We ski as well !

View attachment 722652

View attachment 722653
As mentioned before, your forces defeated a princely state and were then pushed back to the present LOC by the Indian forces.
No doubt, Kashmir is heaven on both sides. But terrorists from your side made sure that our side is the most dangerous heaven on earth.

Just, to think we could have lost all this just defending the swamp in the east.
See, with this attitude towards them, you think you can ever have a friendship with Bangladesh?
 

peagle

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Where is the question of differing narrative? The UN resolution was very clear.
Step 1) Pakistan withdraws completely.
Step 2) After Pak withdrawal is verified, India keeps bare minimum army presence for law & order, withdraws rest.
Step 3) Plebiscite under UN observance.
Pakistan did not agree to Step 1. The question of Indian objection does not arise since Pak failed on Step 1.
Your understanding of events is something repeatedly trumpeted by Indian media to spread lies, but the truth is totally different, and sadly, Pakistanis are not fully aware either, so lies live on.

1. The above was superseded by the UN Security Council resolution 80 adopted on 14th March 1950.
This resolution supported the recommendations in a report by General Andrew McNaughton, who had made the recommendations because of the stalemate in Jammu and Kashmir.

2. Under resolution 80 both countries were to reduce their forces simultaneously and only maintain a minimal force for the purposes of internal security. It did not require Pakistan or India to take the first steps, both were required to act concurrently and mutually.

3. India was a member of the Security Council when this resolution was passed but had abstained, it did not oppose the resolution, which in effect is a quiet approval, if India was explicitly opposed, it would have voted against the resolution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_80

You can find the actual resolution and the report by visiting the UN website.

@Baibars_1260 @PakistaniAtBahrain
 
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