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Greece will be getting F-16Vs in 2022

retaxis

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We are a country of 1.4 billion people. Greece is only 10 million yet you cant manage your country.

Greece is not even a regional power while we are a future superpower.
Trust me you will never get there. Unlike China which is one race ethnicity dominated with worlds highest IQ, India will collapse and balkanise into dozens of states long before it reaches any real power
 

Bleek

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We are a country of 1.4 billion people. Greece is only 10 million yet you cant manage your country.

Greece is not even a regional power while we are a future superpower.
More likely to be a future nuclear wasteland than a global superpower

Perhaps if you let go of Kashmir

Trust me you will never get there. Unlike China which is one race ethnicity dominated with worlds highest IQ, India will collapse and balkanise into dozens of states long before it reaches any real power
India is not going to balkanise
 

Hellfire2006

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More likely to be a future nuclear wasteland than a global superpower

Perhaps if you let go of Kashmir
If you take out the nukes then it's 0 sum game. India can use those too you know , 156 of them according to SIPRI. So it's best to keep the nukes aside like wise people

India will collapse and balkanise into dozens of states long before it reaches any real power
This argument has not proved true for india even at it's weakest point in history. It's impossible in the current scenario
 

Raffie

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I don't know about that,but we do have AIM-120C already. We are getting Meteor for the Rafale too.
AFAIK AIM-120D is reserved to USA, UK and Saudi-Arabia, maybe Australia too, any way, Raytheon has sever issues : half of the AMRAAM's guidance system is made of electronic parts that are no more manufactured for a while, so the most likely is that you need to refurbish existing AIM-120C with the new engine: Raytheon has maintenance contracts, they need to keep their spare parts stockpile for this purpose... Any way, the max range is disproportionate compared to the small NEZ (no escape zone) and AMRAAMs are rather easy to jam or dodge... Consider the obsolete MICA, its 50km NEZ is about the double of an AIM-120C so, even if the max engagement range was 80km for the MICA-EM and 50km for the MICA-IR, once you target something outside the NEZ, well, at best, it may be a tanker, AWACS, cargo or airliner, but one thing for sure, if fighters are spotted, the AWACS will do a U-turn, while its escort will put itself in sweep formation...
If I remember well, the only AMRAAM confirmed kill over 30km took at least 5-6 missiles and the MiG-29 had no ECM, RWR, MAWS, IRST, not even a radar: that is the way Belarus has sold MiG-29 to Serbia and Su-27 to... USA (!), so the '29 had to bleed energy to dodge everything and finally became a sitting duck. Serbs were using the '29s to drag NATO aircraft into SAM-traps... The MICA-NG with a 80km NEZ must be really hot : 50G manoeuvres, the EM version has 120km max range and 80km for the IR one.
During the 2011 Libyan campaign, a NATO brass nicknamed the MICA as "Silent Death": none of the targetted aircraft have seen it coming!

This is just sad. Greece is not doing well economically. It is basically a bankrupt country. It should rather focus on its citizens rather than buying F-16V which it really cant afford.
Thanks to EU measures, this is not the case any more, they even end with an excess money allowing to upgrade the military.
BTW, they get already owned F-16s upgraded to the F-16V program.
Technically speaking, it'd be more interesting to go after all the retired Mirage-2000:
1. Safran has shown a 100kN non-afterburner version of Rafale's M88 and says they can deliver under 18 months, while they've stopped to make the M2000's M53 in 2008-2010 and now are making spare parts only on demand at high price and will stop in 2030. The M88 is way more advanced and the most reliable jet fighter engine on market, they can even make it with vectored thrust, moreover, it's much smaller with less diameter than the M53, this would allow to stuff about 1000L more internal fuel.
Mirage-2000 can already fly Mach2.2 with 95kN and have up to 7t payload... With 100kN of dry thrust, this would mean the ability of a Mach2.2-2.3 in supercruise (!).
It doesn't takes more than 6 months to fit a smaller engine into a jet fighter and fully validate it. The Mirage-III/5 upgrade has seen its Atar-9C replaced by Atar-9K50 as well as, for the Kfir GE J79 and GE F414...

2. Rafale's systems have been designed to upgrade the Mirage-2000 as a plug'n'fight drop-in, in other terms, integration would be freaking easy, SPECTRA would dramatically reduce the radar cross section, AMRAAM is a joke compared to both Meteor and MICA-NG

Now I understand that Greece has a rather large F-16 fleet and... they should also consider upgrading these with M88, even if F-16V's engine is more powerful, the M88 is much lighter and smaller, thus compensating the lesser thrust, then, the F-16's engine is so big that it'd make room for even more internal fuel than a F-16 can have into conformal fuel tanks...

Another big advantage : with two M88, a Rafale's hourly cost is about the half of F-16's spending, so, the hourly cost per F-16/M88 may fall to around $5000-7000 per hour instead of $$22,514 (source : USAF comptroller’s office, 2013) and since Greek pilots are those flying the most in NATO...
Generalising the M88 might be an investment but it would be very fast-compensated with a dramatic slash on costs of use.
The Mirage-2000 fleet may reintroduce the old M2000Cs Greece retired in 2021, as well as getting French or Brazilian ones becoming Mirage-2000NG (moreover, it'd even be feasible to get the retired Nuclear-capable Mirage-2000N, which would be useful e.g. if we put up an EU Nuclear Sharing program based on ASMPA-R...
So Greece can definitively retire its 33 obsolete F-4 Phantom-II as the thrust increase and the high dry thrust will allow a payload even higher than the F-4 or F-16, moreover, thanks to the Meteor and the OSF-IT, if an unfriendly nation, the only one in NATO under CAATSA sanctions, sees its sanctions ending and finally get F-35, or even if they end purchasing Su-57, J-20 or J-31, these would be dead meat nonetheless for Rafale, but also for upgraded Mirage-2000NG...

With 154 F-16s with let's suppose 2 pilots per F-16 flying an average 234h a year (NATO recommands 180h, few fly as much, the lowest annual flight hours in NATO being... USAF with an average 127 hours, near the minimum to keep pilots flyworthy!), the F-16 fleet costs Greece about $1.623bn a year. M88 would reduce the fleet's cost to $450M/year !!!
With Rafale's flyaway cost having been reduced thanks to mass orders, Greece would be able to purchase 1 Rafale squadron a year, just on the money spared on the F-16 fleet !!! Moreover, with the upgrades, be it systems+engine for M2000 or engine for F-16, when the airframes will reach their limits, the elements can be retrofitted on new Rafale airframe...

The F-35 has barely no real interest : it's a money pit with disastrous availability, you won't even fly into a whole year what you can push a M88 in intensive use into a single month, consider about $700M of special hangars per squadrons which will receive shitloads of cruise and ballistic missiles within minutes after the start of a conflict... Thanks to the new form of stealth discovered by ONERA, Rafale F4 is now even stealthier than a F-22 and the latest upgrade to the radar and systems are more advanced than what F-35 is planned to receive in 2030, and it's still nowhere near to achieve what was planned for 2016...

I sometimes wonder how people leading a MoD can understand so poorly the systems and economics, as well as the logistics inherent to their functions, they all seem more into politicizing the procurements believing they'll get some favours e.g. from the US DoS which is rather dubious : bootlicking just gets you crumbs, especially with the Yanks. There is definitively US stuff I'd go for, but surely not when it comes to aircraft or ships: their stuff can truly perform but only if you can have enough to swarm, which can also be done with everything EU-made that is NATO-compatible, but if you have to act in a context with no US/NATO support, e.g. against a non-EU rogue NATO country violating the charter, both parts may be embargoed by the US, as well as they may side with the other, they may even backstab, e.g. Suez 1956 : they sided with Nasser and the Soviets against UK/France/Israel...
 

Foinikas

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AFAIK AIM-120D is reserved to USA, UK and Saudi-Arabia, maybe Australia too, any way, Raytheon has sever issues : half of the AMRAAM's guidance system is made of electronic parts that are no more manufactured for a while, so the most likely is that you need to refurbish existing AIM-120C with the new engine: Raytheon has maintenance contracts, they need to keep their spare parts stockpile for this purpose... Any way, the max range is disproportionate compared to the small NEZ (no escape zone) and AMRAAMs are rather easy to jam or dodge... Consider the obsolete MICA, its 50km NEZ is about the double of an AIM-120C so, even if the max engagement range was 80km for the MICA-EM and 50km for the MICA-IR, once you target something outside the NEZ, well, at best, it may be a tanker, AWACS, cargo or airliner, but one thing for sure, if fighters are spotted, the AWACS will do a U-turn, while its escort will put itself in sweep formation...
If I remember well, the only AMRAAM confirmed kill over 30km took at least 5-6 missiles and the MiG-29 had no ECM, RWR, MAWS, IRST, not even a radar: that is the way Belarus has sold MiG-29 to Serbia and Su-27 to... USA (!), so the '29 had to bleed energy to dodge everything and finally became a sitting duck. Serbs were using the '29s to drag NATO aircraft into SAM-traps... The MICA-NG with a 80km NEZ must be really hot : 50G manoeuvres, the EM version has 120km max range and 80km for the IR one.
During the 2011 Libyan campaign, a NATO brass nicknamed the MICA as "Silent Death": none of the targetted aircraft have seen it coming!


Thanks to EU measures, this is not the case any more, they even end with an excess money allowing to upgrade the military.
BTW, they get already owned F-16s upgraded to the F-16V program.
Technically speaking, it'd be more interesting to go after all the retired Mirage-2000:
1. Safran has shown a 100kN non-afterburner version of Rafale's M88 and says they can deliver under 18 months, while they've stopped to make the M2000's M53 in 2008-2010 and now are making spare parts only on demand at high price and will stop in 2030. The M88 is way more advanced and the most reliable jet fighter engine on market, they can even make it with vectored thrust, moreover, it's much smaller with less diameter than the M53, this would allow to stuff about 1000L more internal fuel.
Mirage-2000 can already fly Mach2.2 with 95kN and have up to 7t payload... With 100kN of dry thrust, this would mean the ability of a Mach2.2-2.3 in supercruise (!).
It doesn't takes more than 6 months to fit a smaller engine into a jet fighter and fully validate it. The Mirage-III/5 upgrade has seen its Atar-9C replaced by Atar-9K50 as well as, for the Kfir GE J79 and GE F414...

2. Rafale's systems have been designed to upgrade the Mirage-2000 as a plug'n'fight drop-in, in other terms, integration would be freaking easy, SPECTRA would dramatically reduce the radar cross section, AMRAAM is a joke compared to both Meteor and MICA-NG

Now I understand that Greece has a rather large F-16 fleet and... they should also consider upgrading these with M88, even if F-16V's engine is more powerful, the M88 is much lighter and smaller, thus compensating the lesser thrust, then, the F-16's engine is so big that it'd make room for even more internal fuel than a F-16 can have into conformal fuel tanks...

Another big advantage : with two M88, a Rafale's hourly cost is about the half of F-16's spending, so, the hourly cost per F-16/M88 may fall to around $5000-7000 per hour instead of $$22,514 (source : USAF comptroller’s office, 2013) and since Greek pilots are those flying the most in NATO...
Generalising the M88 might be an investment but it would be very fast-compensated with a dramatic slash on costs of use.
The Mirage-2000 fleet may reintroduce the old M2000Cs Greece retired in 2021, as well as getting French or Brazilian ones becoming Mirage-2000NG (moreover, it'd even be feasible to get the retired Nuclear-capable Mirage-2000N, which would be useful e.g. if we put up an EU Nuclear Sharing program based on ASMPA-R...
So Greece can definitively retire its 33 obsolete F-4 Phantom-II as the thrust increase and the high dry thrust will allow a payload even higher than the F-4 or F-16, moreover, thanks to the Meteor and the OSF-IT, if an unfriendly nation, the only one in NATO under CAATSA sanctions, sees its sanctions ending and finally get F-35, or even if they end purchasing Su-57, J-20 or J-31, these would be dead meat nonetheless for Rafale, but also for upgraded Mirage-2000NG...

With 154 F-16s with let's suppose 2 pilots per F-16 flying an average 234h a year (NATO recommands 180h, few fly as much, the lowest annual flight hours in NATO being... USAF with an average 127 hours, near the minimum to keep pilots flyworthy!), the F-16 fleet costs Greece about $1.623bn a year. M88 would reduce the fleet's cost to $450M/year !!!
With Rafale's flyaway cost having been reduced thanks to mass orders, Greece would be able to purchase 1 Rafale squadron a year, just on the money spared on the F-16 fleet !!! Moreover, with the upgrades, be it systems+engine for M2000 or engine for F-16, when the airframes will reach their limits, the elements can be retrofitted on new Rafale airframe...

The F-35 has barely no real interest : it's a money pit with disastrous availability, you won't even fly into a whole year what you can push a M88 in intensive use into a single month, consider about $700M of special hangars per squadrons which will receive shitloads of cruise and ballistic missiles within minutes after the start of a conflict... Thanks to the new form of stealth discovered by ONERA, Rafale F4 is now even stealthier than a F-22 and the latest upgrade to the radar and systems are more advanced than what F-35 is planned to receive in 2030, and it's still nowhere near to achieve what was planned for 2016...

I sometimes wonder how people leading a MoD can understand so poorly the systems and economics, as well as the logistics inherent to their functions, they all seem more into politicizing the procurements believing they'll get some favours e.g. from the US DoS which is rather dubious : bootlicking just gets you crumbs, especially with the Yanks. There is definitively US stuff I'd go for, but surely not when it comes to aircraft or ships: their stuff can truly perform but only if you can have enough to swarm, which can also be done with everything EU-made that is NATO-compatible, but if you have to act in a context with no US/NATO support, e.g. against a non-EU rogue NATO country violating the charter, both parts may be embargoed by the US, as well as they may side with the other, they may even backstab, e.g. Suez 1956 : they sided with Nasser and the Soviets against UK/France/Israel...
What would you suggest? I wouldn't mind some F-15s personally...
 

Philip the Arab

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Hey @Foinikas
I wonder if there could be an option to integrate UAE made cruise missiles on the Mirages. It is is early stages of development currently but future variants will include TERCOM and terminal IR seekers and the airframe is obviously stealthy.

They are working on integrating them on their own Mirages so I guess it couldn't hurt to explore integration on HAF Mirages while giving the Storm Shadows for use on the Rafales. Supposedly they are also going to develop air to air missiles by 2025 as well.

"The missile is not envisaged as a replacement for the standoff weapons already available to the UAE, including the MBDA Al-Shaheen derivative of the Scalp/Storm Shadow air-launched cruise missile, but as an additional capability targeted for integration on the UAE’s Dassault Mirage 2000s."

1653245116840.png


1653245170496.png
 

Foinikas

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Hey @Foinikas
I wonder if there could be an option to integrate UAE made cruise missiles on the Mirages. It is is early stages of development currently but future variants will include TERCOM and terminal IR seekers and the airframe is obviously stealthy.

They are working on integrating them on their own Mirages so I guess it couldn't hurt to explore integration on HAF Mirages while giving the Storm Shadows for use on the Rafales. Supposedly they are also going to develop air to air missiles by 2025 as well.

"The missile is not envisaged as a replacement for the standoff weapons already available to the UAE, including the MBDA Al-Shaheen derivative of the Scalp/Storm Shadow air-launched cruise missile, but as an additional capability targeted for integration on the UAE’s Dassault Mirage 2000s."

View attachment 846710

View attachment 846711
They could work,they could work. We have Mirage 2000-5 Mk IIs and logically they could be fitted on them.
 

Philip the Arab

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They could work,they could work. We have Mirage 2000-5 Mk IIs and logically they could be fitted on them.
Greece may recieve some of the Emirati Mirages when they are retired, but they could also be given to Morocco or Egypt.

Also, the F-16 update is great news especially with its new APG-83 radar which gives it a greater capability than what was had before. Is there any standoff capability with HAF F-16s currently though?
 

Umair Nawaz

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@Raffie
F16's operational costs are 4500/flight not even per hour. Per hour is lower.

Maintenance costs are at 20,000 dollars.

These r the figures for Block50/52 of F16s Which r widely used block right now. USAF also uses Block 50.

A single engine plane has always lower op. and maintenance costs viz a viz a double engine plane.

A double engine Rafale F3R's both op. and maintenance costs r higher then F16 Block 50/52 and thats a fact. And in case of Rafale F3R its not mere engines which costs, there r other costs too.
 

LeGenD

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AFAIK AIM-120D is reserved to USA, UK and Saudi-Arabia, maybe Australia too, any way, Raytheon has sever issues : half of the AMRAAM's guidance system is made of electronic parts that are no more manufactured for a while, so the most likely is that you need to refurbish existing AIM-120C with the new engine: Raytheon has maintenance contracts, they need to keep their spare parts stockpile for this purpose... Any way, the max range is disproportionate compared to the small NEZ (no escape zone) and AMRAAMs are rather easy to jam or dodge... Consider the obsolete MICA, its 50km NEZ is about the double of an AIM-120C so, even if the max engagement range was 80km for the MICA-EM and 50km for the MICA-IR, once you target something outside the NEZ, well, at best, it may be a tanker, AWACS, cargo or airliner, but one thing for sure, if fighters are spotted, the AWACS will do a U-turn, while its escort will put itself in sweep formation...
If I remember well, the only AMRAAM confirmed kill over 30km took at least 5-6 missiles and the MiG-29 had no ECM, RWR, MAWS, IRST, not even a radar: that is the way Belarus has sold MiG-29 to Serbia and Su-27 to... USA (!), so the '29 had to bleed energy to dodge everything and finally became a sitting duck. Serbs were using the '29s to drag NATO aircraft into SAM-traps... The MICA-NG with a 80km NEZ must be really hot : 50G manoeuvres, the EM version has 120km max range and 80km for the IR one.
During the 2011 Libyan campaign, a NATO brass nicknamed the MICA as "Silent Death": none of the targetted aircraft have seen it coming!


Thanks to EU measures, this is not the case any more, they even end with an excess money allowing to upgrade the military.
BTW, they get already owned F-16s upgraded to the F-16V program.
Technically speaking, it'd be more interesting to go after all the retired Mirage-2000:
1. Safran has shown a 100kN non-afterburner version of Rafale's M88 and says they can deliver under 18 months, while they've stopped to make the M2000's M53 in 2008-2010 and now are making spare parts only on demand at high price and will stop in 2030. The M88 is way more advanced and the most reliable jet fighter engine on market, they can even make it with vectored thrust, moreover, it's much smaller with less diameter than the M53, this would allow to stuff about 1000L more internal fuel.
Mirage-2000 can already fly Mach2.2 with 95kN and have up to 7t payload... With 100kN of dry thrust, this would mean the ability of a Mach2.2-2.3 in supercruise (!).
It doesn't takes more than 6 months to fit a smaller engine into a jet fighter and fully validate it. The Mirage-III/5 upgrade has seen its Atar-9C replaced by Atar-9K50 as well as, for the Kfir GE J79 and GE F414...

2. Rafale's systems have been designed to upgrade the Mirage-2000 as a plug'n'fight drop-in, in other terms, integration would be freaking easy, SPECTRA would dramatically reduce the radar cross section, AMRAAM is a joke compared to both Meteor and MICA-NG

Now I understand that Greece has a rather large F-16 fleet and... they should also consider upgrading these with M88, even if F-16V's engine is more powerful, the M88 is much lighter and smaller, thus compensating the lesser thrust, then, the F-16's engine is so big that it'd make room for even more internal fuel than a F-16 can have into conformal fuel tanks...

Another big advantage : with two M88, a Rafale's hourly cost is about the half of F-16's spending, so, the hourly cost per F-16/M88 may fall to around $5000-7000 per hour instead of $$22,514 (source : USAF comptroller’s office, 2013) and since Greek pilots are those flying the most in NATO...
Generalising the M88 might be an investment but it would be very fast-compensated with a dramatic slash on costs of use.
The Mirage-2000 fleet may reintroduce the old M2000Cs Greece retired in 2021, as well as getting French or Brazilian ones becoming Mirage-2000NG (moreover, it'd even be feasible to get the retired Nuclear-capable Mirage-2000N, which would be useful e.g. if we put up an EU Nuclear Sharing program based on ASMPA-R...
So Greece can definitively retire its 33 obsolete F-4 Phantom-II as the thrust increase and the high dry thrust will allow a payload even higher than the F-4 or F-16, moreover, thanks to the Meteor and the OSF-IT, if an unfriendly nation, the only one in NATO under CAATSA sanctions, sees its sanctions ending and finally get F-35, or even if they end purchasing Su-57, J-20 or J-31, these would be dead meat nonetheless for Rafale, but also for upgraded Mirage-2000NG...

With 154 F-16s with let's suppose 2 pilots per F-16 flying an average 234h a year (NATO recommands 180h, few fly as much, the lowest annual flight hours in NATO being... USAF with an average 127 hours, near the minimum to keep pilots flyworthy!), the F-16 fleet costs Greece about $1.623bn a year. M88 would reduce the fleet's cost to $450M/year !!!
With Rafale's flyaway cost having been reduced thanks to mass orders, Greece would be able to purchase 1 Rafale squadron a year, just on the money spared on the F-16 fleet !!! Moreover, with the upgrades, be it systems+engine for M2000 or engine for F-16, when the airframes will reach their limits, the elements can be retrofitted on new Rafale airframe...

The F-35 has barely no real interest : it's a money pit with disastrous availability, you won't even fly into a whole year what you can push a M88 in intensive use into a single month, consider about $700M of special hangars per squadrons which will receive shitloads of cruise and ballistic missiles within minutes after the start of a conflict... Thanks to the new form of stealth discovered by ONERA, Rafale F4 is now even stealthier than a F-22 and the latest upgrade to the radar and systems are more advanced than what F-35 is planned to receive in 2030, and it's still nowhere near to achieve what was planned for 2016...

I sometimes wonder how people leading a MoD can understand so poorly the systems and economics, as well as the logistics inherent to their functions, they all seem more into politicizing the procurements believing they'll get some favours e.g. from the US DoS which is rather dubious : bootlicking just gets you crumbs, especially with the Yanks. There is definitively US stuff I'd go for, but surely not when it comes to aircraft or ships: their stuff can truly perform but only if you can have enough to swarm, which can also be done with everything EU-made that is NATO-compatible, but if you have to act in a context with no US/NATO support, e.g. against a non-EU rogue NATO country violating the charter, both parts may be embargoed by the US, as well as they may side with the other, they may even backstab, e.g. Suez 1956 : they sided with Nasser and the Soviets against UK/France/Israel...

Dude,

Which AMRAAM variant you are talking about?

"The Yugoslav MIG-29's are among the world's top fighter jets." - New York Times (see references below)

Kill record with AMRAAM in Operation Allied Force (1999) for reference:

DateNATO jet fighter involvedAMRAAM variant usedYugoslav jet fighter shot downNo. of shots fired to achieve the KILL
March 24, 1999F-16A/MLU J-063 (322 squadron KLu)AIM-120AMiG-29 181061
March 24, 1999F-15C 86-0169 (493EFS/48FW)AIM-120CMiG-29 181121
March 24, 1999F-15C 86-0159 (493EFS/48FW)AIM-120CMiG-29 181113
March 26, 1999F-15C 86-156 (493EFS/48FW)AIM-120CMiG-29 181131
March 26, 1999F-15C 86-156 (493EFS/48FW)AIM-120CMiG-29 181142
May 4, 1999F-16C 91-0353 (78EFS/20FW)AIM-120CMiG-29 181091

These AIM-120C were original baseline variant (Lots 8 - 10).

AMRAAM was improved several times in later years:

AIM-120C-4 (Lots 11 - 15)
AIM-120C-5 (Lots 11 - 15)
AIM-120C-6 (Lots 11 - 15)
AIM-120C-7 (Lots 16 - 21)
AIM-120D
AIM-120D-3

Improvements include:

- Maximum target engagement range increased from 75 km (AIM-120C) to 200+ km* (AIM-120D-3);
- HOBS (off-boresight) capability;
- GPS guidance;
- Home-on-jamming (HOJ);
- Two-way datalink;

*This is not a marketing claim but an AIM-120D variant was used to engage and shoot down a BQM-167A drone in a live-fire test at a range in excess of 200 KM for operational validation. This disclosure shocked many around the world because AIM-120D was never officially stated to be capable of engaging a target at a distance exceeding 200 KM mark. This disclosure shows the extent of leap in AMRAAM's hit probability in latest variants; how much it has grown since the 1990s on a technical level. Target complexity can change the calculus of-course but shooting platform can also make a difference. F-15s are typically equipped with some of the most advanced sensor systems in the world.

The latest AMRAAM kill was achieved in Syria in 2018:


Now let us talk about Rafale

Rafale F3 standard is an impressive jet fighter but it is not stress-tested in combat situations. People talk about its role in war in Libya in 2011 but a lot happened in this conflict:

"In what was, in fact, a largely coordinated effort, British and U.S. submarines launched 112 Tomahawk Land Attack cruise missiles (TLAMs) at predetermined air defense and C2 targets throughout Libya a few hours after the French attacks, focusing primarily on air bases near Tripoli and Misrata. Shortly thereafter, three RAF Tornado GR4s launched from their base at Marham on a 3,000-mile round-trip sortie to perform Storm Shadow cruise missile attacks, also against Libyan air defense and C2 targets. It was the RAF’s first bombing strike launched from the UK since the Second World War and the longest British bombing mission since the “Black Buck” operations of the Falklands conflict. It involved multiple refuelings from two VC10s and a Tristar. The Storm Shadow provided a unique capability within the UK arsenal, as it enabled successful attacks on hardened installations and bunkered weapons storage facilities. As it is a “standoff” weapon, Storm Shadow also reduced substantially the threat that surface-to-air (SAM) systems posed to aircraft, an important consideration given that intelligence on Qaddafi’s military capability was out of date." - RAND (see references below)

The French dispatched a well-equipped fleet of 20 aircraft for their mission in Benghazi in fact:

"From a military perspective, this first strike did not go by the book according to standard U.S. practice, as SEAD operations or the confirmed destruction of Libyan airpower had not yet taken place. It was, therefore, a rather risky operation carried out successfully, and not merely a symbolic attack. It involved around 20 air force aircraft: eight multirole Rafales, two Mirage 2000-5s (for air superiority), two Mirage 2000Ds (for interdiction), six C-135FR tankers, and one E-3F AWACS, striking targets located some 1,500 kilometers from their bases. Four Libyan armored vehicles were reportedly destroyed during the mission, two by GBU-12 laser-guided bombs dropped by the Mirage 2000Ds and two by AASM guided weapons launched by Rafales. This was a rather small number by military standards, but it stopped the advance of Qaddafi’s leading forces at the outskirts of Benghazi and probably helped prevent a massacre in the city. Had Benghazi fallen, the outcome of the war could have been quite different. As such, this initial strike served a critical political and strategic purpose." - RAND (see references below)

American surveillance apparatus was involved in taking down Gaddafi himself:

"French aircraft, directed by surveillance from U.S. Predator drones, on October 21 struck a convoy of regime vehicles as Gaddafi was spotted trying to flee his hometown of Sirte. He was removed from his vehicle and killed shortly after by rebel fighters on the ground." - New America (see references below)

Emphasis mine. Rafale F3 standard was the 'propaganda cover' for public consumption while NATO champions did the heavy-lifting behind-the-scenes.

I do not recall Rafale F3R producing an air-to-air kill in this war:


So from where the claim "a NATO brass nicknamed the MICA as Silent Death" stem from?

LMAO

Now let us talk about engines

Snecma M88 engine can provide the ability to supercruise in MACH 2.2 - 2.3 speed range? Are you kidding or something?

The only engine in the world that allows a jet fighter to reliably supercruise is Pratt & Whitney F119. A pair of these engines allows F-22A Raptor to supercruise up to MACH 1.8 mark.

Others are not even close in this matter.

Now let us talk about stealth

The F-35 program experienced supply chain problems due to removal of Turkey and COVID-19 outbreak. This problem resulted in shortage of various parts needed to make as many F-35 variants operational as possible at earliest. This problem will be fixed in time.

Rafale F4 standard is undergoing trials in the present. It cannot be stealthier than F-22A or F-35A/B/C or even close to either 5th generation jet fighter unless the airframe is completely redesigned in line with RCS reduction principles. There is no substitute for shaping considerations in this matter.

Stealthy characteristics involve following: (1) Shaping considerations; (2) RAM coating applications; and (3) Electronic Warfare. These factors should be combined to develop a truly stealthy jet fighter.

The RBE2-AA radar system is expected to be improved for F4 standard but there is not much information to determine how it stack up to AN/APG-81 radar system in use in F-35A/B/C. What is known is that AN/APG-81 is a much bigger and advanced radar system in comparison:


F-35 EW capabilities are on another level in comparison to SPECTRA as well.

Rafale F3 standard is nowhere close to being a Western heavyweight in war-fighting capabilities.

Rafale F4 standard is expected to be formidable but Americans are able to produce better.

ONERA is French research facility (see references below)

References












 

dbc

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Dude,

Which AMRAAM variant you are talking about?

"The Yugoslav MIG-29's are among the world's top fighter jets." - New York Times (see references below)

Kill record with AMRAAM in Operation Allied Force (1999) for reference:

DateNATO jet fighter involvedAMRAAM variant usedYugoslav jet fighter shot downNo. of shots fired to achieve the KILL
March 24, 1999F-16A/MLU J-063 (322 squadron KLu)AIM-120AMiG-29 181061
March 24, 1999F-15C 86-0169 (493EFS/48FW)AIM-120CMiG-29 181121
March 24, 1999F-15C 86-0159 (493EFS/48FW)AIM-120CMiG-29 181113
March 26, 1999F-15C 86-156 (493EFS/48FW)AIM-120CMiG-29 181131
March 26, 1999F-15C 86-156 (493EFS/48FW)AIM-120CMiG-29 181142
May 4, 1999F-16C 91-0353 (78EFS/20FW)AIM-120CMiG-29 181091

These AIM-120C were original baseline variant (Lots 8 - 10).

AMRAAM was improved several times in later years:

AIM-120C-4 (Lots 11 - 15)
AIM-120C-5 (Lots 11 - 15)
AIM-120C-6 (Lots 11 - 15)
AIM-120C-7 (Lots 16 - 21)
AIM-120D
AIM-120D-3

Improvements include:

- Maximum target engagement range increased from 75 km (AIM-120C) to 200+ km* (AIM-120D-3);
- HOBS (off-boresight) capability;
- GPS guidance;
- Home-on-jamming (HOJ);
- Two-way datalink;

*This is not a marketing claim but an AIM-120D variant was used to engage and shoot down a BQM-167A drone in a live-fire test at a range in excess of 200 KM for operational validation. This disclosure shocked many around the world because AIM-120D was never officially stated to be capable of engaging a target at a distance exceeding 200 KM mark. This disclosure shows the extent of leap in AMRAAM's hit probability in latest variants; how much it has grown since the 1990s on a technical level. Target complexity can change the calculus of-course but shooting platform can also make a difference. F-15s are typically equipped with some of the most advanced sensor systems in the world.

The latest AMRAAM kill was achieved in Syria in 2018:


Now let us talk about Rafale

Rafale F3 standard is an impressive jet fighter but it is not stress-tested in combat situations. People talk about its role in war in Libya in 2011 but a lot happened in this conflict:

"In what was, in fact, a largely coordinated effort, British and U.S. submarines launched 112 Tomahawk Land Attack cruise missiles (TLAMs) at predetermined air defense and C2 targets throughout Libya a few hours after the French attacks, focusing primarily on air bases near Tripoli and Misrata. Shortly thereafter, three RAF Tornado GR4s launched from their base at Marham on a 3,000-mile round-trip sortie to perform Storm Shadow cruise missile attacks, also against Libyan air defense and C2 targets. It was the RAF’s first bombing strike launched from the UK since the Second World War and the longest British bombing mission since the “Black Buck” operations of the Falklands conflict. It involved multiple refuelings from two VC10s and a Tristar. The Storm Shadow provided a unique capability within the UK arsenal, as it enabled successful attacks on hardened installations and bunkered weapons storage facilities. As it is a “standoff” weapon, Storm Shadow also reduced substantially the threat that surface-to-air (SAM) systems posed to aircraft, an important consideration given that intelligence on Qaddafi’s military capability was out of date." - RAND (see references below)

The French dispatched a well-equipped fleet of 20 aircraft for their mission in Benghazi in fact:

"From a military perspective, this first strike did not go by the book according to standard U.S. practice, as SEAD operations or the confirmed destruction of Libyan airpower had not yet taken place. It was, therefore, a rather risky operation carried out successfully, and not merely a symbolic attack. It involved around 20 air force aircraft: eight multirole Rafales, two Mirage 2000-5s (for air superiority), two Mirage 2000Ds (for interdiction), six C-135FR tankers, and one E-3F AWACS, striking targets located some 1,500 kilometers from their bases. Four Libyan armored vehicles were reportedly destroyed during the mission, two by GBU-12 laser-guided bombs dropped by the Mirage 2000Ds and two by AASM guided weapons launched by Rafales. This was a rather small number by military standards, but it stopped the advance of Qaddafi’s leading forces at the outskirts of Benghazi and probably helped prevent a massacre in the city. Had Benghazi fallen, the outcome of the war could have been quite different. As such, this initial strike served a critical political and strategic purpose." - RAND (see references below)

American surveillance apparatus was involved in taking down Gaddafi himself:

"French aircraft, directed by surveillance from U.S. Predator drones, on October 21 struck a convoy of regime vehicles as Gaddafi was spotted trying to flee his hometown of Sirte. He was removed from his vehicle and killed shortly after by rebel fighters on the ground." - New America (see references below)

Emphasis mine. Rafale F3 standard was the 'propaganda cover' for public consumption while NATO champions did the heavy-lifting behind-the-scenes.

I do not recall Rafale F3R producing an air-to-air kill in this war:


So from where the claim "a NATO brass nicknamed the MICA as Silent Death" stem from?

LMAO

Now let us talk about engines

Snecma M88 engine can provide the ability to supercruise in MACH 2.2 - 2.3 speed range? Are you kidding or something?

The only engine in the world that allows a jet fighter to reliably supercruise is Pratt & Whitney F119. A pair of these engines allows F-22A Raptor to supercruise up to MACH 1.8 mark.

Others are not even close in this matter.

Now let us talk about stealth

The F-35 program experienced supply chain problems due to removal of Turkey and COVID-19 outbreak. This problem resulted in shortage of various parts needed to make as many F-35 variants operational as possible at earliest. This problem will be fixed in time.

Rafale F4 standard is undergoing trials in the present. It cannot be stealthier than F-22A or F-35A/B/C or even close to either 5th generation jet fighter unless the airframe is completely redesigned in line with RCS reduction principles. There is no substitute for shaping considerations in this matter.

Stealthy characteristics involve following: (1) Shaping considerations; (2) RAM coating applications; and (3) Electronic Warfare. These factors should be combined to develop a truly stealthy jet fighter.

The RBE2-AA radar system is expected to be improved for F4 standard but there is not much information to determine how it stack up to AN/APG-81 radar system in use in F-35A/B/C. What is known is that AN/APG-81 is a much bigger and advanced radar system in comparison:


F-35 EW capabilities are on another level in comparison to SPECTRA as well.

Rafale F3 standard is nowhere close to being a Western heavyweight in war-fighting capabilities.

Rafale F4 standard is expected to be formidable but Americans are able to produce better.

ONERA is French research facility (see references below)

References













I must admit I lol'ed real hard at the MICA 'silent death' tag allegedly coined by NATO top brass. What did the MICA actually kill other than the French military budget?
 

dBSPL

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The F-35 program experienced supply chain problems due to removal of Turkey and COVID-19 outbreak.
The information security problems caused by the design of JSF as a US allies(!) joint combat platform, both on logistics system planning and on critical mission profiles, are still a matter of debate. Therefore, the changes created by this process on the structuring of the Turkish air force can be evaluated multidimensionally, if we considering Turkey's efforts to become distinctive in line with its national interests,. However, there is an indisputable fact that it has created very important gains for the Turkish aviation industry.

Only in the last 6 years, defense and aerospace exports from Turkey to the USA are over 5 billion dollars, and most of this is JSF program supplies. In 2021, when the effects of Covid in the industry are left behind, although there is a comprehensive study with the aim of removing Turkey from the JSF supply chain; Aviation exports to the USA reached 1.2 billion dollars last year. In 2022, it is expected that the total exports will be over 1 billion dollars as previous years.

Maybe Turkey could not add these jets to its air force, but it was an important milestone in both increasing the industrial capacity and gaining some important production technologies. Those who look into the shadow of MMU can also see the ghost of F-35.
 

Akritas

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Two F16V are ready, with all the new electronic systems and the new wiring, as well as with the new software that has been "loaded" with the care of Lockheed Martin and are waiting for the start of the flight tests.
According to the schedule, the first two planes will return fully operational to an Hellenic Air Force Squadron in September. At the same time, the "505", which was used as a prototype, will return from the USA.

Reference: https://doureios.com/stin-eav-oi-amerikanoi-test-pilot-gia-tis-telikes-dokimes-ton-f-16v/
 

Akritas

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According to the DP media , the flight of the first upgraded F-16V from the Hellenic Aerospace Industry facility in Tanagra was completed a while ago, with the Hellenic Air Force, HAI and Lockheed Martin having every reason to smile.
The test flight was completed without any observation. The aircraft "works" exceptionally, which means that with the certainty that the work done is simply flawless, everything will flow even faster…
The focus is on tomorrow's flight of the second F-16V - in addition to the prototype flying to the US as they have already mentioned - which is scheduled for 11 in the morning.


1655306770543.png

Reference: https://www.defence-point.gr/news/s...io-to-deytero-eav-me-quot-spasmena-frena-quot
 

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