• Wednesday, December 19, 2018

Ghaggar-Hakra believed to be mythical Rig Veda Sarasvati river proven false

Discussion in 'Central & South Asia' started by Shabaz Sharif, Aug 16, 2013.

  1. Shabaz Sharif

    Shabaz Sharif SENIOR MEMBER

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    [​IMG]

    The reason Ghaggar-Hakra no longer is believed to be Sarasvati is because it was monsoon-fed river and Rig Veda clearly mention that Sarasvati was Himalayas-fed river.

    Also recent definitive study by Giosan et al in PNAS (Fluvial landscapes of the Harappan Civilization; 2012; June 26; 109 (26): e1688-94) which clearly demonstrated that the the much touted Ghaggar-Hakra was a monsoon-fed river, not the Vedic Sarasvati fed by the melting snows of high mountains.


    “Numerous speculations have advanced the idea that the Ghaggar-Hakra fluvial system, at times identified with the lost mythical river of Sarasvati (e.g., 4, 5, 7, 19), was a large glacierfed Himalayan river. Potential sources for this river include the Yamuna River, the Sutlej River, or both rivers. However, the lack of large-scale incision on the interfluve demonstrates that large, glacier-fed rivers did not flow across the Ghaggar-Hakra region during the Holocene. Existing chronologies (27, 28) and our own age on the bank of Sutlej (SI Text) identified deposits of Late Pleistocene age, indicating that the interfluve formed instead during the last glacial period. Provenance detection (32) suggests that the Yamuna may have contributed sediment to this region during the last glacial period, but switched to the Ganges basin before Harappan times."

    “Contrary to earlier assumptions that a large glacier-fed Himalayan river, identified by some with the mythical Sarasvati, watered the Harappan heartland on the interfluve between the Indus and Ganges basins, we show that only monsoonal-fed rivers were active there during the Holocene.

    Fluvial Landscapes of the Harappan Civilization, Giosan et al, PNAS Early Edition, May 2012

    In other words, while the Yamuna could have fed the Ghaggar-Hakra in the pleistocene period (pre-10000 BC), it could not have fed the Ghaggar-Hakra in the holocene period that followed (10,000 BC and later).
     
  2. Shabaz Sharif

    Shabaz Sharif SENIOR MEMBER

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    I think now BJP will have to go back to drawing board and re write Indian History again.
     
  3. Agnostic_Indian

    Agnostic_Indian SENIOR MEMBER

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  4. INDIC

    INDIC BANNED

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    The Sunday Tribune - Spectrum

    [​IMG]


    THE importance of Ganges as the most sacred river in Indian culture cannot be overstressed. However, there was another river which was a lot more important than the Ganges. In fact, there are not very significant references to the Ganges in the Vedas. The pride of place was given to the Sarasvati, a river that no longer exists!

    The Rig Veda considered it to be the mother of seven seas. There are 45 hymns in which the Rig Veda eulogises it. In the Ramayana, it is referred to as the sacred Ikshumati—Bhrahma’s daughter. The Mahabharata too has references to the river. But the story does not end here: there is strong evidence that apart from the Indus, the Sarasvati was also the lifeline of the Indus Valley Civilisation, thus prompting some scholars to call it the Indus-Sarasvati Civilisation.

    In The Lost River: On the Trail of the Sarasvati, Michel Danino, a French scholar, gives a detailed account of the renewed interest in the disappearance of the ancient river.

    Archaeologists have long speculated that the humble Ghaggar, which flows out of the Shivaliks, is actually the Sarasvati of antiquity. Danino says it is truly noteworthy that when the British archaeologists mapped the Indus Valley sites about two hundred years ago, they found most were located round the dry bed of Ghaggar-Hakra.

    But why zero in on the Ghaggar-Hakra as a relic of the Sarasvati? Aren’t there other contenders? The Rig Veda mentions Sarasvati as a mighty river flowing from the mountain to the sea and located between the Yamuna and the Shutudri (Sutlej). The Mahabharata, the Brahmanas, and the Puranas also make similar references to the Sarasvati. Danino says the British explorers who took up the clue found several seasonal streams emerging from the Shivalik Hills, but no major river flowing between the Yamuna and the Sutlej. They continued their search nevertheless because there was a strong tradition mentioning a mighty river flowing westward and getting lost. This tradition correlated with Sanskrit texts, and the maps plotted by the British lent strong support for the thesis that the bed of the Ghaggar-Hakra was indeed a remnant of the mythical Sarasvati.

    The author reviews the various projects undertaken by the British and other European adventurers since the days of the East India Company to find the Sarasvati. One of the earliest explorers was Colonel James Tod who speaks of the absorption of the Caggar (sic) river as one of the causes of the depopulation of the northern desert.

    Almost 200 years ago, a French scholar named Vivien de Saint-Martin, too, argued that all the streams that flow from the west to the east, the Ghaggar, the Markanda, the Dangri, the Sarsuti and the Chautang unite in a single bed which is the Rig Veda’s Sarasvati. Marc Aurel Stein, another archaeologist who came to India in the late 1880s, postulated that the easternmost tributary of the Ghaggar was still known as the Sarsuti, a corruption of ‘Sarasvati’.

    Modern scholars, too, have suggested that the Ghaggar is a strong contender for the mythical Sarasvati. Satellite imagery of the region shows that the Ghaggar, in other words the Sarasvati, was important not only in the Vedic times but also during the Harappan age. The Ghaggar was the lifeline of the Indus Valley Civilisation, because out of a sample of about 1,400 Harappan sites, more than 75 per cent are situated on the banks of the Ghaggar-Hakra channel.

    If it was such an important river, what happened to it? Why did it vanish suddenly? Some researchers have suggested that it was the lack of rainfall over the years that dried up the Sarasvati. Richard Dixon Oldham, a British geologist, who joined the Geological Survey of India in 1879, rejected such theories. If that were the case, other rivers of the region would have got affected too.

    He argued that part of Yamuna’s waters might have flowed into the Ghaggar-Hakra bed in Vedic times: "It may have been that the Yamuna, after leaving the hills, divided its waters and that the portion which flowed to the Punjab was known as Sarasvati, while that which joined the Ganges was called the Yamuna." Geological changes were responsible for the Sarasvati changing its course and finally getting lost.

    Recent studies give credence to the theory that geological and tectonic movements were responsible for some of the shifting rivers. Evidence from survey fieldwork and recent satellite imagery strongly suggests that the Ghaggar-Hakra system in the past had the Sutlej and the Yamuna as tributaries. Geological changes diverted the Sutlej towards the Indus and the Yamuna towards the Ganga, following which the river did not have enough water to reach the sea, and it dried up in the Thar Desert.

    And this vanishing act happened much before the Vedic age. In fact, one of the reasons for the sudden fall of the Indus Valley Civilisation was the drying up of the Sarasvati. The Harappans were thus forced to move eastwards but they did not forget their revered river. They kept its memory alive by making it part of the Triveni Sangam, where it meets (albeit invisibly) the Ganges and the Yamuna. Danino says, "Not only was the Sarasvati thus made to connect with the Ganges, but in the course of time, Sarasvati the goddess passed on many of her attributes to Ganga. ... In many ways, Ganga is an avatar of Sarasvati, just as the Ganges civilisation is a new avatar of the Indus-Sarasvati civilisation."

    Michel Danino has produced a scholarly work which will inspire future explorers and theorists to try to solve the mystery of the vanishing sacred river.
     
  5. Shabaz Sharif

    Shabaz Sharif SENIOR MEMBER

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    No sane archaeologist call it Sarasvati Civilization, you mean Hindu scholars.

    Which now have been proven false with latest research as of 2012 and not 200 years ago, read first post. Ghaggar-Hakra is monsoon-fed river for at least 10.000bc.
     
  6. Nassr

    Nassr FULL MEMBER

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    I have read this book. There are many who challenge some of the basic assertions made by Denino while he quoted from certain studies that have selectively chosen a set of data to draw conclusions while ignoring the available data that proves them wrong. He also states that the reasons of celebrating Kumbh Mela at Triveni Sangam are only a matter of faith and therefore are suspect and wrong.

    What do you think about Denino's assertion about the practice of faith at Triveni Sangam during Kumbh Mela.
     
  7. SarthakGanguly

    SarthakGanguly BANNED

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    "No sane archaeologist call it Sarasvati Civilization, you mean Hindu scholars."

    Ok. So let me begin quoting some people. You can also give them a read.
    Note: I had to filter out exclusively 'Hindu' authors - though in India, that Hindus will write more is natural...anyway here it is
    (All links are from Scholar Search - oft cited and authentic)

    1. The transformation of the Indus Civilization - Springer
    2. http://www.finden.gr/asp/A Short History of Yoga.pdf
    3. A Survey of Hinduism: Third Edition - Klaus K. Klostermaier - Google Books
    4. JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
    5. The Search of the Cradle of Civilization: New Light on Ancient India - Georg Feuerstein, Subhash Kak, David Frawley - Google Books
    6. The Myth of Aryan Invasion of India
    7. The Ancient Indus Valley: New Perspectives - Jane McIntosh - Google Books

    Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/centra...rasvati-river-proven-false.html#ixzz2c98zlsjC
     
  8. INDIC

    INDIC BANNED

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    Perhaps you missed the name of the author of the book. :cheesy:
     
  9. JAT BALWAN

    JAT BALWAN FULL MEMBER

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    So according to you BJP written the the Indian history?
    do you have a slightest hint of the time frame of BJP & how old is Indian history written?
     
  10. pk_baloch

    pk_baloch FULL MEMBER

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    Ghaggar-Hakra,Sarasvati,Yamuna and the Shutudri aise aise nam sun kar mujhe chakar ate hein ...:blink:
     
  11. SarthakGanguly

    SarthakGanguly BANNED

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    Sanskrit origins bro... we like it :)
     
  12. INDIC

    INDIC BANNED

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    From the same article I posted above.

    Almost 200 years ago, a French scholar named Vivien de Saint-Martin, too, argued that all the streams that flow from the west to the east, the Ghaggar, the Markanda, the Dangri, the Sarsuti and the Chautang unite in a single bed which is the Rig Veda’s Sarasvati.

    Marc Aurel Stein, another archaeologist who came to India in the late 1880s, postulated that the easternmost tributary of the Ghaggar was still known as the Sarsuti, a corruption of ‘Sarasvati’.
     
  13. Menace2Society

    Menace2Society SENIOR MEMBER

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    Pakistan created the first civilization of the sub continent.

    We traded with Mesopotamia and Ancient Egypt whilst Indians were running around in jungles naked.

    Indian revisionist historians have always tried to call our civilization theirs, nothing to do with you. Your civilization came much later on.

    I guess we had to teach you how to live like normal humans.
     
  14. INDIC

    INDIC BANNED

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    @Nassr Look at the map, look at the upper part of Saraswati, its between Yamuna and Sutlej as mentioned in Rigveda.

    [​IMG]

    You are wrong, Mesopotamia traded with our ancestors from the coast of Gujarat. There was no port of time of Indus valley civilization on the delta of Indus river. ;)
     
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  15. Nassr

    Nassr FULL MEMBER

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    Mujhay bhi. :cheesy: