• Friday, July 28, 2017

German Army Continues to Swallow Its Neighbors

Discussion in 'Europe & Russia' started by Vergennes, Feb 24, 2017.

  1. Vergennes

    Vergennes PROFESSIONAL

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    @Blue Marlin @flamer84 @Nilgiri
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    [​IMG]
    Soldiers of armored infantry battalion Panzergrenadierbataillon 122 of the Bundeswehr, the German armed forces.(Johannes Simon/Getty Images)

    Czech Republic and Romania are sending major chunks of their armies to the Bundeswehr.


    A Czech and Romanian brigade will be integrated into divisions of the German army. The agreement is to be signed at a meeting of nato defense ministers tomorrow. The Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (faz), which broke the story on February 2, wrote, “The Bundeswehr is developing into the leading nato army in Europe.”

    The agreement is the most dramatic of a series of arrangements Germany is negotiating to deepen its cooperation with other countries. The EU Observer summarized the faz’s report, noting, “The longer-term strategy would turn the Bundeswehr into the leading nato army in Europe, with small countries integrating their military forces into the German command structures.”

    Two thirds of the Dutch army’s command structure began to integrate into the German army last year.

    [​IMG]


    The faz wrote (Trumpet translation throughout): “This policy means Germany strengthens its own military power and, secondly, it creates practical road marks for the goal of European armed forces.”

    The revolutionary handover of sovereignty from the Netherlands is already being seen as a proof of concept that other nations can follow, providing “the closest and most varied example of how far the military cooperation between two nato states can go” (ibid). Last year, German defense minister Ursula von der Leyen set out her ambitions to create “a multinational Panzer division” by integrating soldiers from other nations into the German army.

    Die Welt explained, “This should create a unit with up to 20,000 active soldiers, which should be operational by 2021—which would be the nucleus of a European army” (March 17).

    Now von der Leyen is taking further practical steps in that direction. The Czech 4th Rapid Deployment Brigade will be integrated into the 10th German Panzer Division and the Romanian 81st Mechanized Brigade will be assigned to Germany’s Rapid Force Division.

    These are not mere token forces. The Czech Republic is integrating one of its two combat brigades into the German army (this does not include combat support forces, such as the 13th Artillery Regiment).

    On February 13, Reuters reported that unnamed sources with the defense ministry say that Germany also plans to lay out plans to create a joint fleet of transport aircraft with France and to join a joint fleet of tanker aircraft with the Netherlands.

    At first glance, the plans seem unimpressive. The Franco-German fleet would begin with 10 transport planes. The United States operates more than 5,000. However, Europe is so short of transport planes that even an additional 10 will make a difference. This move is also a proof of concept. If successful, it will serve as a platform that more and more units can be added to. With Britain on the way out, France and Germany are the European Union’s two largest militaries. If they can prove that they can share resources and work together, there’s great potential for cooperation.

    Germany will also sign a declaration of intent to join the Multinational Multi-role Tanker Transport Fleet of aircraft led by the Netherlands. The group also includes Luxembourg; Belgium and Norway may also join. Germany said it could spend up to €1 billion on planes, which would be based in the Netherlands and in Germany.

    Germany will also expand its cooperation with Norway, with plans to work together in buying submarines and missiles.

    Germany has made no secret of the fact that it aims to build a European army through these deals with other nations. It is creating a network of military cooperation—with Germany at the center. In 2013 then-Defense Minister Thomas de Maizière concluded that efforts to create a European army in one sweep were simply not working. Instead, he aimed to create much deeper cooperation within individual nations, gradually building the nucleus of a European army out of bilateral cooperation.

    “If Germany can prove that integration can work with the Netherlands and Poland—and they can save a lot of money doing so—other nations will want in. Once Berlin brings a few more countries on line, this project will gain critical mass,” we wrote at the time. “The result would be an EU army, or a very closely coordinated group of armies, centered on Germany.”

    U.S. President Donald Trump’s insistence that Europe must bear the burden, the cost and the responsibility of defending itself is further encouraging this effort. Von der Leyen said that German requests to do more were “fair.” They certainly encourage other nations to sign up to the initiatives that Germany began long before Mr. Trump launched his bid for the presidency.

    The timing of Germany’s push is deliberate. From February 17 to 19, national defense leaders, politicians and academics will gather in Germany for the Munich Security Conference. Talk of EU military cooperation is included in the conference’s annual report, which has been published ahead of the event. The report includes an infographic illustrating how far the Dutch have gone in integrating with the Germany army. With so much uncertainty about President Trump’s plans for Europe’s defense, extra attention is being focused on the conference this year to see what America will do, and how Europe will react. European military integration is definitely on the agenda.

    The rise of a Europe capable of fielding a powerful military force, independent from the United States, would be one of the biggest geopolitical events in the last century and would revolutionize the balance of power around the world.

    Herbert W. Armstrong warned of this exact military union for decades. In May 1953, he wrote that “10 powerful European nations will combine their forces.” In August 1978, he warned: “The Europeans are far more disturbed about their safety in relying on United States military power to protect them than Americans realize! …

    Europeans want their own united military power! They know that a political union of Europe would produce a third major world power, as strong as either the U.S. or the ussr—possibly stronger!”

    He saw that this cooperation would not come easily. But Europe is being forced in this direction. For more on how this force is coming together, read our article “Is Europe Finally Ready for an Army?” ▪

    https://www.thetrumpet.com/article/...erman-army-continues-to-swallow-its-neighbors
     
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  2. Silverblaze

    Silverblaze FULL MEMBER

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    So its the 4th reich? May be Germany is becoming another behemoth or it could be that US has quietly asked the germans to play a leading role in Europe against Russia while US takes the back seat.
     
  3. Sher Shah Awan

    Sher Shah Awan SENIOR MEMBER

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    @Vergennes I think this news was broadcasted by a British newspaper before the E.U referendum and the remainers dismissed as fear mongering. Now it seems to be coming true...
     
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  4. Blue Marlin

    Blue Marlin SENIOR MEMBER

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    the czech's and the Romanians are scared of the big bad bear. and hide under the EU umbrella. they dont do it because they want to, its because they have no other choice can you imagine a war where its romania vs russia? russia will snap them up in a fortnight worst case scenario.
     
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  5. Vergennes

    Vergennes PROFESSIONAL

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    Germany with its pacifist doctrine post WW2 can't be relied upon to lead the defence of Europe and its interests. It's totally useless in fact,unless Germany adopts a more aggressive and active posture,which will probably never happen. I suggest France to sallow everyone to make it something serious.
     
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  6. Blue Marlin

    Blue Marlin SENIOR MEMBER

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    indeed france is more suited but do you realistically see it happening......??????
    or we come up with a dastardly plan. we develop some kind of syrum to change the minds of the germand to be more agressive. but not to agressive we all know what happens when the germans are angry.

    but kidding aside it wont happen. i think its more of a post ww2 shock thats still around just like japan in a way. they are never offensive only defensive.
     
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  7. Vergennes

    Vergennes PROFESSIONAL

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    France has currently the most potent and active military of the EU,it would be natural to take the lead of the European defence,but will probably never happen.

    They'll unleash their anger at us and Poland,as always. :D

    Germany has the capacity to become the leading European military if it really wanted. But it doesn't want.
     
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  8. Penguin

    Penguin PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

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    No, Its simply a matter of efficiency. E.g. alone, for the Netherlands it would be relativeluy expensive to maintain is (token) force of 18 (!) Leopard II. Integrated into a German unit, the Dutch tankers can use the German maintenance and logistics infra, while the German unit get more tanks. It simply means they train together. And when push comes to shove, we all band together, like we already did during the cold war (only in those days, the units were much larger and hence integrated higher up in the command structure, and much less operationally, although very well muytually adjusted).

    It is an inevitable development as military equipment gets more expensive. There will be role specialization, unit integration, common sourcing or equipment etc. That is the only way to maintain credible defence as a group of nations, that on their own would have a hard time providing that.

    Oh, so the EU is forcing them, you mean?

    Reminder: the Czech Republic joined NATO in 1999 (together with Hungary and Poland, whereas Romania joined NATO in 2004, together with Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia, and Slovenia (2004). The military cooperation has been going on much longer under NATO flag than any EU initative, and predates recent Russian attitude.
     
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  9. Awan68

    Awan68 BANNED

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    The french are famous for surrendering in wars, they have no will as a nation to protect anyone else, mark my words in the next world war the french will again be an occupied country lol, the germans are more suited for the defense of europe, the pacifist nature is of their govt, the german people are still the toughest in europe..
     
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  10. Penguin

    Penguin PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

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    Oh? I believe France has 200 LeClerc mbts active (of 406 total) versus over 328 Leo 2A6/A7/A7+ (of 403 owned). France has no equivalent vehicle(s) for Marder (200) and Puma (78 of 350 on order), not even its 100+ or so AMX-10P . In SPGH's, France's 32 tracked AMX-30 AuF1 and 77 wheeled Ceasar versus 100 PzH-2000. In M270 MLRS's , France's 13 versus Germany's 38.

    Germany has no equivalent vehicles that compare with France's 90 ECR-90 and 248 AMX-20R. France has 629 VBCI 8x8 armored vehicles, 2,661 VAB 4x4 or 6x6 armoured vehicles, 1,466 VBLs 4x4 and 1,181 PVP 4x4 armored cars, as well as 14 Nexter Aravis MRAPs. 53 bv206S and BvS10. Total vehicles = 6,342
    By comparison, Germany has 272 (of 403 on order) GTK Boxer 8x8 armored vehicles, 1100 TPz Fuchs 6x6 armored vehicles, 725 Dingo 1/2 4x4 armored Infantry mobility vehicle, 217 (of 248 ordered) Fennek 4x4 armored reconaissance vehicle, 495 Eagle IV +176 Eagle V 4x4 MRAP, > 400 Mungo ESK MRAP, 296 YAK MRAP, 331 Enok armored cars, 272 Wiesel 1/2 airborne tracked armored vehicle. 379 armored tracked BV-206S. Total vehicles = 4,487. So, here we find France has more 'light' armor. Then again, given its wider overseas territory, France also has to spread its forces more around the globe.

    And that's a good thing! Given Brexit, maybe we could ask the Italian or Spanjards? Of, better yet, the Dutch?
     
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  11. flamer84

    flamer84 ELITE MEMBER

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    Good luck in building the 4th Reich with the T55's the Romanian 81st brigade has,lol...Stalingrad all over again,lel...Leo's 2A7 next to T55's,Boxers next to BTR 70's...glorious Euro Army!
     
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  12. vostok

    vostok PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

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    @Vergennes What do you think - can these events in future revive the traditional alliance of France and Russia?
     
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  13. Vergennes

    Vergennes PROFESSIONAL

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    Sorry,but you should keep a low profile seeing Pakistani's military record. France has fought more wars,battles,entire coalitions and succeeded much more than Pakistan ever did/will do. The country you insult currently gave a lot of military words and terms for the world.

    What did happen when the Malians asked the French for assistance ? Yeah,hours later,the air force and the special forces were already begining the combat missions,while the major forces were heading to Mali from French military bases in Africa and mainland France.

    Maybe you forgot that France was a nuclear armed state ? That it would make use of its weapons,in case the nation is endengered. German people,toughest in Europe,lol what a joke. Germany has still this pacifist nature and will never adopt an agressive and active one,the German public and politicians are reluctent to send their soldiers to fight anywhere or to drop any bomb. We have this exemple of Germany sending planes to Syria/Iraq just for reconaissance missions or sending soldiers to Mali to 'support' France,but are no way to be seen on the frontline,they are way behind.

    You can have an answer in three months,depending on who will lead our state. Pretty all the major candidates want improved relations,cooperation with Russia. The likes of Fillon,Le Pen,or even the leftist Mélenchon. Don't remember which one even proposed to work on military industry with Russia.


    It is oubvious that they will offer everyone Leo2A7+,Boxer vehicles,PZH2000 etc. Otherwise,they can keep their EU army for them. :taz:
     
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  14. mike2000 is back

    mike2000 is back SENIOR MEMBER

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    he is right i'm afraid. You cant compare Pakistan's military track record or capabilities with that of a world power like France. It's laughable. In fact you cant compare any south Asian country's military track record/history with that of France, France has far more military successes than any south Asian country(much less Pakistan) has/will ever in the foreseeable future.
     
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  15. Vergennes

    Vergennes PROFESSIONAL

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    He said "I would reserve my reply for a saner individual",thinking I would interact with a serious person,but ends up calling people names,insult them and literally suppose that you are an Indian,or "a bollywood infested toad".
     
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