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Former RAF pilots being hired by PLAAF to train pilots

313ghazi

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Please note the headline of the original article is inflammatory, so i didn't use it.

Former RAF pilots teaching China how to shoot down Western aircraft were labelled ‘traitors’ last night by furious former comrades.

Up to 30 Top Guns, said to include former Red Arrows pilots, are passing on vital knowledge and experience to the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) in a serious threat to national security, according to defence officials.

They are not breaking current laws but came under fire from the UK’s armed forces minister, who said legislation will soon be changed to stop veterans aiding a foreign adversary, particularly one labelled our ‘No 1 threat’.

James Heappey, who fought in Afghanistan, said the pilots’ actions ‘did not match my understanding of service’ as China was ‘a foreign power which challenges UK interests’.

He revealed that those taking up the £250,000-a-year roles, plus perks, have been warned about the consequences of their actions.

Mr Heappey said yesterday: ‘We have had a grave concern for a while. Our counter-intelligence branch has been making sure they are clear on what they are doing.

‘We’ve approached the people involved and have been clear it is our expectation they would not continue to be part of that organisation [the PLA].

‘[The pilots] have chosen not to take that advice. We are going to change the law to make it illegal.

‘Once people have been given that warning it will become an offence to go forward and continue with that training. China is a competitor threatening the UK interest in many places around the world. It is no secret their attempts to access our secrets and their recruitment of our pilots – to understand the capabilities of our air force – is clearly a concern.’

Reports suggest those recruited through a South African flying school could include former Red Arrows. They are acting as PLA instructors across China. Their pay packets are apparently supplemented with luxury accommodation, maids and fast cars.

As anger grew last night, retired Rear Admiral Chris Parry said: ‘These potential traitors should be named, shamed and shunned. I am disgusted people think taking money for services which improve a totalitarian regime’s ability to prevail against democratic countries is in any way right.’

Next week, Home Secretary Suella Braverman will unveil new laws compelling anyone acting for a foreign power to register with the UK government. Anyone failing to do so could face up to five years in jail.

But friends of the pilots sought to downplay the risks. Speaking on condition of anonymity, one said: ‘The guys don’t want to talk.

‘They have everything to lose – and being identified would bury them. The money was very large, life-changing. They don’t feel there’s a threat, obviously. The information they teach is very generic. But it is designed to improve the ability of the PLA pilots, so is far from ideal.’

Some former RAF pilots have been more open, detailing assignments on website LinkedIn.


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Very interesting to see PLAAF take advantage of a commercial opportunity to get a hold of RAF training techniques.
 

jhungary

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Please note the headline of the original article is inflammatory, so i didn't use it.

Former RAF pilots teaching China how to shoot down Western aircraft were labelled ‘traitors’ last night by furious former comrades.

Up to 30 Top Guns, said to include former Red Arrows pilots, are passing on vital knowledge and experience to the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) in a serious threat to national security, according to defence officials.

They are not breaking current laws but came under fire from the UK’s armed forces minister, who said legislation will soon be changed to stop veterans aiding a foreign adversary, particularly one labelled our ‘No 1 threat’.

James Heappey, who fought in Afghanistan, said the pilots’ actions ‘did not match my understanding of service’ as China was ‘a foreign power which challenges UK interests’.

He revealed that those taking up the £250,000-a-year roles, plus perks, have been warned about the consequences of their actions.

Mr Heappey said yesterday: ‘We have had a grave concern for a while. Our counter-intelligence branch has been making sure they are clear on what they are doing.

‘We’ve approached the people involved and have been clear it is our expectation they would not continue to be part of that organisation [the PLA].

‘[The pilots] have chosen not to take that advice. We are going to change the law to make it illegal.

‘Once people have been given that warning it will become an offence to go forward and continue with that training. China is a competitor threatening the UK interest in many places around the world. It is no secret their attempts to access our secrets and their recruitment of our pilots – to understand the capabilities of our air force – is clearly a concern.’

Reports suggest those recruited through a South African flying school could include former Red Arrows. They are acting as PLA instructors across China. Their pay packets are apparently supplemented with luxury accommodation, maids and fast cars.

As anger grew last night, retired Rear Admiral Chris Parry said: ‘These potential traitors should be named, shamed and shunned. I am disgusted people think taking money for services which improve a totalitarian regime’s ability to prevail against democratic countries is in any way right.’

Next week, Home Secretary Suella Braverman will unveil new laws compelling anyone acting for a foreign power to register with the UK government. Anyone failing to do so could face up to five years in jail.

But friends of the pilots sought to downplay the risks. Speaking on condition of anonymity, one said: ‘The guys don’t want to talk.

‘They have everything to lose – and being identified would bury them. The money was very large, life-changing. They don’t feel there’s a threat, obviously. The information they teach is very generic. But it is designed to improve the ability of the PLA pilots, so is far from ideal.’

Some former RAF pilots have been more open, detailing assignments on website LinkedIn.


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Very interesting to see PLAAF take advantage of a commercial opportunity to get a hold of RAF training techniques.
Or stupid for PLAAF?

How do you know this is not a ploy to pass on the bad info intentionally to PLAAF by the RAF people??

It's really stupid to ask your adversary to train your own people.
 

Beast

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Or stupid for PLAAF?

How do you know this is not a ploy to pass on the bad info intentionally to PLAAF by the RAF people??

It's really stupid to ask your adversary to train your own people.
Lol... You think PLAAF is stupid when the RAF tell them, they do kamikazi run?

The best part is we know what RAF is doing but RAF don't know what PLAAF is up to.....
 

dbc

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It's really stupid to ask your adversary to train your own people.

intelligence is a two way street, these pilots will bring back a treasure trove of intelligence about the PLAAF back to the UK.
 

jhungary

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intelligence is a two way street, these pilots will bring back a treasure trove of intelligence about the PLAAF back to the UK.
Well, that's "Intelligence"

You don't let in someone in just because they said they will spy for you. You will need to vet them before you even let them come in close, let alone using them to teach your military stuff. In fact, if someone come to me and "Volunteer" their information against their own country, you probably will doubt the person's creditability, don't forget, they did betray someone once by doing that, how do you know they are not doing the same to you??

This is way too stupid to use your adversary unless you know they can be trusted and was completely act against their host interest, and the problem is, you never know.
 

nang2

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He probably thinks it would be insane for UK to fight with China in the air over and around China. For US, however, that is a real possibility.
 

jhungary

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Lol... You think PLAAF is stupid when the RAF tell them, they do kamikazi run?

The best part is we know what RAF is doing but RAF don't know what PLAAF is up to.....
That would have been too easy, right?? Telling your pilot to do suicide run.

I am not an Combat Pilot, you will need to ask @gambit for example in the air. But if you are hiring US Army guy to teach you how the Western Army fight, I will come volunteer and teach your troop this scenario

If you are facing a dug in enemy, putting up a prepared ambush ahead of you, what you should do is you will spread your armour out in a breast-to-breast formation (ie, in a line) and suppress the enemy and then followed by an infantry attack along the same axis.

How do you know that is a correct response? I mean, do you trust that and practice that?
 

Raider 21

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Please note the headline of the original article is inflammatory, so i didn't use it.

Former RAF pilots teaching China how to shoot down Western aircraft were labelled ‘traitors’ last night by furious former comrades.

Up to 30 Top Guns, said to include former Red Arrows pilots, are passing on vital knowledge and experience to the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) in a serious threat to national security, according to defence officials.

They are not breaking current laws but came under fire from the UK’s armed forces minister, who said legislation will soon be changed to stop veterans aiding a foreign adversary, particularly one labelled our ‘No 1 threat’.

James Heappey, who fought in Afghanistan, said the pilots’ actions ‘did not match my understanding of service’ as China was ‘a foreign power which challenges UK interests’.

He revealed that those taking up the £250,000-a-year roles, plus perks, have been warned about the consequences of their actions.

Mr Heappey said yesterday: ‘We have had a grave concern for a while. Our counter-intelligence branch has been making sure they are clear on what they are doing.

‘We’ve approached the people involved and have been clear it is our expectation they would not continue to be part of that organisation [the PLA].

‘[The pilots] have chosen not to take that advice. We are going to change the law to make it illegal.

‘Once people have been given that warning it will become an offence to go forward and continue with that training. China is a competitor threatening the UK interest in many places around the world. It is no secret their attempts to access our secrets and their recruitment of our pilots – to understand the capabilities of our air force – is clearly a concern.’

Reports suggest those recruited through a South African flying school could include former Red Arrows. They are acting as PLA instructors across China. Their pay packets are apparently supplemented with luxury accommodation, maids and fast cars.

As anger grew last night, retired Rear Admiral Chris Parry said: ‘These potential traitors should be named, shamed and shunned. I am disgusted people think taking money for services which improve a totalitarian regime’s ability to prevail against democratic countries is in any way right.’

Next week, Home Secretary Suella Braverman will unveil new laws compelling anyone acting for a foreign power to register with the UK government. Anyone failing to do so could face up to five years in jail.

But friends of the pilots sought to downplay the risks. Speaking on condition of anonymity, one said: ‘The guys don’t want to talk.

‘They have everything to lose – and being identified would bury them. The money was very large, life-changing. They don’t feel there’s a threat, obviously. The information they teach is very generic. But it is designed to improve the ability of the PLA pilots, so is far from ideal.’

Some former RAF pilots have been more open, detailing assignments on website LinkedIn.


------------

Very interesting to see PLAAF take advantage of a commercial opportunity to get a hold of RAF training techniques.
This has happened as early as 2011. South Africans, Canadians, Germans and a single Pakistani were hired to instruct on FTC-2000, to teach fighter fundamentals to the PLAAF. Most did not last as the living conditions were not good and the PLAAF training was too rigid to accept changes.
 

Bleek

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Russians are non-Chinese, too. Just so you know.
I'm aware, just putting the possibility out there of this being one of the western pilots.

Russian flying tactics are sub-par though compared to NATO. And there's a different advantage entirely by having access to NATO pilots compared to Russian.
 

jhungary

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This has happened as early as 2011. South Africans, Canadians, Germans and a single Pakistani were hired to instruct on FTC-2000, to teach fighter fundamentals to the PLAAF. Most did not last as the living conditions were not good and the PLAAF training was too rigid to accept changes.
probably A LOT longer than that.

It's widely believe (at least in Australia) when we send the Decommissioned HMAS Melbourne to China for scrapping in late 80s, the Chinese Navy had been studying it before it was scrapped and rumour has it they actually kept some part of vital infrastructure after scrapping (Such as catapult and elevator) and there are strong believe former RAN personnel were recruited for this purpose of study,
 

gambit

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Lol... You think PLAAF is stupid when the RAF tell them, they do kamikazi run?

The best part is we know what RAF is doing but RAF don't know what PLAAF is up to.....
Are you really that stupid? :rolleyes:

The one thing that I learned from watching other air forces that is universal is: How you fly is how you fight.

There is no deviation from that observation since the dawn of aviation. And how you fight hints at your tactics which hints at your overall strategy. Like others have noted that intelligence is a two-way street, HUMINT is the same. What kind of questions you ask reveals to the instructors what you know and how you would apply what you know. How discipline you are in training reveals how discipline you could be in the stress of combat and the instructors will note everything from your voice over the radio to how quickly you respond to orders to how attentive are the wingmen to their leads. Good wingmen needs little orders from leads. Wingmen automatically covers their leads and should be the first to inform their leads of their positions. Good leads then keep their situational awareness and coordinates their flying with other leads. The RAAF instructors will note all of this. What is China going to do? Kill or imprison all these men at the end of their contract? What China is doing -- hiring mercs -- is not extraordinary but it is revealing to all that maybe the Parade Line Army Air Force (PLAAF) is not as tactically capable as propaganda posters and videos would have the rest of the world believe.
 

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