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Former PAF ACM Sohail Aman Gives His Views on PAF V IAF !

Windjammer

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the guy who shot down SU30 broke the rule and was allegedly told off.
Leave it Janab, let the key board warriors draw their own conclusions .
Reminds me of the French reporter during the Gulf war, over enthusiastically he was reporting that F-16s are leaving for more missions with a B-52 roaring overhead.
 

R Wing

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'I am more concerned with his comments regarding the constraint shown by Pakistan.
He admitted what we know for long that PAF had far more Indian jets locked and could have caused lot more damage. But decided not to, because people were worried about full scale war.

It is exactly like sending a boxer to fight with one of the hand tight behind his back, while opposing fighter has no such constraints.
Indians were not worried about full scale war when they send their jets to bomb Pakistani land, Pakistan proper must add not Azad Kashmir.

@MastanKhan
The paradox of restraint --- does it actually aid deterrence or erode it?

Obviously, the doves heading the PMO and GHQ think it aids it --- but I'm not so sure.
I hope that you guys realize that the decision to share evidence of A2A kills is taken at Governmental level and not by retired officials. They can’t come on tv upon whim and share information that’s not been cleared by authorities.
What does "evidence" even mean? Almost anything can be faked. India has presented 'evidence' too, etc.
 

crankthatskunk

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The paradox of restraint --- does it actually aid deterrence or erode it?

Obviously, the doves heading the PMO and GHQ think it aids it --- but I'm not so sure.
Restraint definitely erode the deterrence. Deterrence by nature and meaning is to deter your enemies from taking any action against you.
What some have written in response to my post, confirms that the restraint was due to weaknesses. Weaknesses can never deter anyone.
Take an example of latest threats by Indian Army generals against Pakistan.
if Restraint were not show in Feb 2019 and all the locked 9 jets were shot down, Indians would be thinking hundred times before talking or thinking about striking.

As for Doves, see what India has done in last couple of years in Kashmir.
If that is not the indication of wrong policies, what is!!
But unfortunately, logic and common sense is rare in Pakistanis.
 

R Wing

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Restraint definitely erode the deterrence. Deterrence by nature and meaning is to deter your enemies from taking any action against you.
What some have written in response to my post, confirms that the restraint was due to weaknesses. Weaknesses can never deter anyone.
Take an example of latest threats by Indian Army generals against Pakistan.
if Restraint were not show in Feb 2019 and all the locked 9 jets were shot down, Indians would be thinking hundred times before talking or thinking about striking.

As for Doves, see what India has done in last couple of years in Kashmir.
If that is not the indication of wrong policies, what is!!
But unfortunately, logic and common sense is rare in Pakistanis.
Totally agree --- that's what I was implying.

The problem is that all those in power --- generals, judges, politicians --- prioritize (extremely!) short-term stability during their tenures instead of the long-term strategic interests of the country.

And, even worse, they try to pitch this as patriotism. Try talking to some fans of the current policy here and they'll have 10 (stupid) arguments about how this is a mature and effective approach. What a joke!

What a sad day when your warriors become doves.
 

Myth_buster_1

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Hi,

Get out of this " we slapped them hard " mindset.

PAF needs to learn to fight from the Israeli air force command and control.

Pakistani air force command & control are like show horses---show excellent fighting skills during training missions---but when the actual time came to perform---the pants fell down.
This guy wants to start a war over few fallen trees or he is a man child who likes to see death and destruction.
 

JawadKKhan

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Most of the Pakistanis even believe a JF17 shot down Indian Mig21.
Then those incredible stories of Jewish pilots flying Indian Su30s. :rolleyes::rolleyes:
Lol! yeah, pakistanis need not to believe on any conspiracy theories at all. As the FACTS speaks LOUD n high for Pakistan's favor already. Indians on the other hand have not a Single photo / video proof either for Balakot OR fantasy of shooting down F-16. All experts even sane indian experts, even severely Anti-Pakistan commentators like Christiane Fair and many other international experts completely REJECTED comical explanations of indian claims. So, you won't get anything from scratching the conspiracy theories here anymore. :)


26-27feb-PHOTOsB-1.jpg
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Abid123

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LOL you ever read the Quran??, in Quran Allah says amal ka daromadar neato pe hota hai, and tell me how Allah will save Pakistan we not obeying preaching of Islam, we are corrupt to core in religious wise, get out of your fantasy land bro
It was a joke and you fell for it....
 

Bigbang1983

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LOL you ever read the Quran??, in Quran Allah says amal ka daromadar neato pe hota hai, and tell me how Allah will save Pakistan we not obeying preaching of Islam, we are corrupt to core in religious wise, get out of your fantasy land bro

you're stupid, go back to your work (car Saling)
Salam. What you have quoted is a hadith actually.

Sahih al-Bukhari 1
Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab:
I heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) saying, "The reward of deeds depends upon the intentions and every person will get the reward according to what he has intended. So whoever emigrated for worldly benefits or for a woman to marry, his emigration was for what he emigrated for."

It’s from the first hadith in Sahi Bukhari and the students in Madaris start their hadith learning from this very hadith. During the last year of darse-nezami which is a 8 year course, students study hadith in depth and also gain skills in analysing science of chains of narration.
Sorry for the off topic post.
 

blain2

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fancy words for being timid collectively.
It's fine. I am not pointing this at you. Just a general statement.

Egging on a fight against an adversary that is 3x larger is neither smart nor brave. You fight ONLY as an option of "absolute" last resort. We have thinking people in our military and also in the government. What have the past 3 wars taught us? At best we can get a stalemate out of a war with India. Why rush towards that same inevitability? If people think differently, let them bring forth proof points. What has qualitatively changed b/w Pakistan and India? Nothing much as such to expect a different outcome this time around is silly.

What if Pakistan had shot down 8 of their aircraft after getting the permissions for the shoot-downs? Do you think the other side would have just sat around licking their wounds? No, they would have picked up elsewhere and escalated (remember Operation Grandslam?) even if we believe that their options in the air were deterred.

I have seen a few arm-chair generals here vent by suggesting that we should have gone in aggressively. That option is quite debatable as our limited action already drove a message home that Pakistan will react and that too effectively. Going beyond that was to invite more trouble than we wanted at that moment. As such in all such situations, a door has to be left open for a face saving way out for the other side. Pakistan gave that option to India by not going after more aircraft.

One should think of putting their own loved ones at risk to wage such expensive enterprises. Think of your own siblings, relatives (if they were in uniform) being put at risk in such escalations to give a pause to the overtly-militaristic impulses. Its all fine and dandy to talk about shaadat/martyrdom etc. but for those who lose their loved ones in such things, the loss is not made up just because someone tells you that your son died for the country as a shaheed.
 

Hakikat ve Hikmet

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First thing is that we didn't hold back at all. In my opinion, Pakistan's response was far more aggressive than my expectations and imagination. It was more-than-proportionate and was good enough, keeping in view that Pakistan is not in a position to go for a full-scale conflict with India, at this point of time.

Secondly, of course, we must facilitate Modi to remain in power as long as possible; because it is in Pakistan's interest. See, how this man has brought India into an open conflict with China.
And, what Modi is doing in the homefront is also quite praiseworthy....

Even if Pak has to accept some minor losses it's worth keeping Modi in power....
It's fine. I am not pointing this at you. Just a general statement.

Egging on a fight against an adversary that is 3x larger is neither smart nor brave. You fight ONLY as an option of "absolute" last resort. We have thinking people in our military and also in the government. What have the past 3 wars taught us? At best we can get a stalemate out of a war with India. Why rush towards that same inevitability? If people think differently, let them bring forth proof points. What has qualitatively changed b/w Pakistan and India? Nothing much as such to expect a different outcome this time around is silly.

What if Pakistan had shot down 8 of their aircraft after getting the permissions for the shoot-downs? Do you think the other side would have just sat around licking their wounds? No, they would have picked up elsewhere and escalated (remember Operation Grandslam?) even if we believe that their options in the air were deterred.

I have seen a few arm-chair generals here vent by suggesting that we should have gone in aggressively. That option is quite debatable as our limited action already drove a message home that Pakistan will react and that too effectively. Going beyond that was to invite more trouble than we wanted at that moment. As such in all such situations, a door has to be left open for a face saving way out for the other side. Pakistan gave that option to India by not going after more aircraft.

One should think of putting their own loved ones at risk to wage such expensive enterprises. Think of your own siblings, relatives (if they were in uniform) being put at risk in such escalations to give a pause to the overtly-militaristic impulses. Its all fine and dandy to talk about shaadat/martyrdom etc. but for those who lose their loved ones in such things, the loss is not made up just because someone tells you that your son died for the country as a shaheed.
In addition, the international pressure, even from Pak's friends, can't be overlooked or discounted....
 

NA71

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It's fine. I am not pointing this at you. Just a general statement.

Egging on a fight against an adversary that is 3x larger is neither smart nor brave. You fight ONLY as an option of "absolute" last resort. We have thinking people in our military and also in the government. What have the past 3 wars taught us? At best we can get a stalemate out of a war with India. Why rush towards that same inevitability? If people think differently, let them bring forth proof points. What has qualitatively changed b/w Pakistan and India? Nothing much as such to expect a different outcome this time around is silly.

What if Pakistan had shot down 8 of their aircraft after getting the permissions for the shoot-downs? Do you think the other side would have just sat around licking their wounds? No, they would have picked up elsewhere and escalated (remember Operation Grandslam?) even if we believe that their options in the air were deterred.

I have seen a few arm-chair generals here vent by suggesting that we should have gone in aggressively. That option is quite debatable as our limited action already drove a message home that Pakistan will react and that too effectively. Going beyond that was to invite more trouble than we wanted at that moment. As such in all such situations, a door has to be left open for a face saving way out for the other side. Pakistan gave that option to India by not going after more aircraft.

One should think of putting their own loved ones at risk to wage such expensive enterprises. Think of your own siblings, relatives (if they were in uniform) being put at risk in such escalations to give a pause to the overtly-militaristic impulses. Its all fine and dandy to talk about shaadat/martyrdom etc. but for those who lose their loved ones in such things, the loss is not made up just because someone tells you that your son died for the country as a shaheed.
Agreed....100%
 

Goenitz

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@kursed @HRK
The Modi factor is important. He is a butcher of Gujrat who has now command over Indian armed forces. He is so overwhleming to bureaucrats and generals, that they would say yes to each of his command. So, you can expect anything from him.
 
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HRK

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@kursed @HRK
The Modi factor is important. He is a butcher of Gujrat who has now command over Indian armed forces. He is so overwhleming to bureaucrats and generals, that they would say yes to each of his command. So, you can expect anything from him.
short answer yes ...

Reason: Due to his poor performance in domestic theater
 

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