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This is the same girl who is acting innocent in the video. Just look how corrupt these as**oles are!

View attachment 766555
Getting drunk/taking drugs is not problematic for such libturd elites but being hit on by a drunk/drugged married man in such a situation is problematic ... and when something goes wrong, anyone who questions 'why did you go to such a place/party to get drunk and hang out with other drunkards/druggies?' is an extremist.
 

khansaheeb

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The problem is people think Islam is just for ritual and not for implementation.

If mullah are raping children how many rapist have we executed? Our concern for deen is limited to blasphemy and show off.

In Pakistan it doesn't matter if we all become Jews or scientologists or devil worshippers or atheists. We don't implement any laws, those of man or of God. This is why society is messed up. Anywhere in the world society is savage - the implementation of law keeps it in line.

I live safely in the UK because the law is implemented. If implementation here was like Pakistan this country would be even worse than Pakistan. People's lives would be hell.

The same is true everywhere.
Islam is used as a cover for their bad deeds something they can hide behind and fool by camouflage.
 

Goritoes

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No it isn’t - your entire assertion and that of the other reactionary psedointellectual that this is some anti-Islam stance because these people were liberals or whatever in nature is what it blows out of the water. A girl was raped inside the mosque by a man meeting the same superficial description beloved by Pakistanis - where is argument on whether Islam would have saved that girl?
Look (Sir, brother, friend) you are extremely awesome person, and One of those I extremely enjoy reading here, but you are not understanding the point, maybe it is my poor English, but you need to understand that no on is enjoying or celebrating her death in a way of that she deserve it, its an oxymoron in itself, because if someone is actually claiming that Islam could've save her, its not the religion itself but the people, we are not asking a religion to save us or any individual but the people who under Islam would've valued a life more than it is and also the System of Islam itself has a strong position on that one can not be judge, jury and executioner. People when they say Islam could've saved her life is in a sense that Islam in Proactive when it comes to stopping the sins from happening and spreading across the societies, that is why there are harsh Punishments for things like Fornication, rape, stealing. When Rasool Allah said, even Fatima RA would steal he would cut her hands off, why you think he said that? it is to show the society that everyone is equal, and it contains a message to the general Public that no matter who you, whatever your status is the society I will chop your hand of if you commit a crime.
Second of all, no one ever defend the wrongs of Pakistani society at least I don't, I am one of the strong critique of the ills of Pakistani society like you and many others but the difference between me and you, is that I am as equal critique of Western societies and their ills, nor Do i blame 223 million Population for crimes or extremism, nor I blame the failure of Islam for crimes that is committed by individuals. I am living in US and its not much time I spend here, but the crimes here that have been committed here by individuals from Police officer being a Pedophile, Pastor raping, young teenagers slitting throats of their infants, and yet none of them would call entire American Population to be bad or criticize them like you and others are, every thing that happen in Pakistan happen in America as well, and on much larger and scarier scale, but as I said I hardly hear you use the same strong critique, why?

You and the remaining here are so defensive of the ills in Pakistani society that any attempt to link them with greater issues leads to “Islam would have saved her” or “this is a liberal issue”. Instead of addressing that this act was of a mentality unstable murder helped along by elite parents - where the blame could be put on the elite structure in society - the people of Pakistan showed their colors by talking on how Islam could have saved her and yet cannot use the same tissue paper to wipe clean their societies image when it comes to this child being raped by a moulvi.
Again, No one is defending ills of Pakistani's or Pakistani society but yes if you are generalizing the entire country then yes I have a Problem because my Family lives there, my entire relatives lives there and all of them are decent people, there are millions of good people in Pakistan, religious or non religious and they don't want crimes to happen whether in a mall or mosque, Park or Parking area. But thing is you are constantly using one example of a Molvi raping a child in a masjid to prove What? should we condemn the entire Molvi ? should we close down the mosques, but what would you say about rapes and murders that happen in the elite section of our societies, done by rich and non religious people, Now Please don't tell me no rape happen in Defense or DHA or Clifton Areas, or blue areas of Isb, you have all sorts of dirty and disgusting things happening there too but rich people have lots of Quaid-e-Azam to throw at news papers and news channels to put the story under the rug, but a poor person's crime is highlighted in a society like he did and that was the first of its kind.
This Particular story has no molvi , no religious person involved in it but people who are from the elite of the society, and you will hear from the same religious people who are asking for the strongest punishment for the rapists and Murderer, PDF is literally the place and you can go look back, people who holds the religious values dear are one to ask for harsher Punishments whether the person committing the crimes is a Molvi, or rich person. You are nit picking few comments who are saying that the girl did the wrong, and indeed Yes she did the wrong when she went to this psycho's house to stay with him, now you can not tell me they were going to play monopoly all night or cards, and it all comes back to where? Islamic system POV would be more Proactive, she shouldn't be going into a house of a Non-mehram to begin with, If Allah asks his creation not to do something he has his reasons and wisdom which you and me won't ever understand, that is why we let the Quran and Allah decide our Moral and ethnical values because those serve as Objective Morality for us, a rule which is created by someone who created us from DNA to a live breathing human being.

I rest my case here, no hard feelings for you :) you are always one my favorite posters to read.
 

SQ8

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Look (Sir, brother, friend) you are extremely awesome person, and One of those I extremely enjoy reading here, but you are not understanding the point, maybe it is my poor English, but you need to understand that no on is enjoying or celebrating her death in a way of that she deserve it, its an oxymoron in itself, because if someone is actually claiming that Islam could've save her, its not the religion itself but the people, we are not asking a religion to save us or any individual but the people who under Islam would've valued a life more than it is and also the System of Islam itself has a strong position on that one can not be judge, jury and executioner. People when they say Islam could've saved her life is in a sense that Islam in Proactive when it comes to stopping the sins from happening and spreading across the societies, that is why there are harsh Punishments for things like Fornication, rape, stealing. When Rasool Allah said, even Fatima RA would steal he would cut her hands off, why you think he said that? it is to show the society that everyone is equal, and it contains a message to the general Public that no matter who you, whatever your status is the society I will chop your hand of if you commit a crime.
Second of all, no one ever defend the wrongs of Pakistani society at least I don't, I am one of the strong critique of the ills of Pakistani society like you and many others but the difference between me and you, is that I am as equal critique of Western societies and their ills, nor Do i blame 223 million Population for crimes or extremism, nor I blame the failure of Islam for crimes that is committed by individuals. I am living in US and its not much time I spend here, but the crimes here that have been committed here by individuals from Police officer being a Pedophile, Pastor raping, young teenagers slitting throats of their infants, and yet none of them would call entire American Population to be bad or criticize them like you and others are, every thing that happen in Pakistan happen in America as well, and on much larger and scarier scale, but as I said I hardly hear you use the same strong critique, why?



Again, No one is defending ills of Pakistani's or Pakistani society but yes if you are generalizing the entire country then yes I have a Problem because my Family lives there, my entire relatives lives there and all of them are decent people, there are millions of good people in Pakistan, religious or non religious and they don't want crimes to happen whether in a mall or mosque, Park or Parking area. But thing is you are constantly using one example of a Molvi raping a child in a masjid to prove What? should we condemn the entire Molvi ? should we close down the mosques, but what would you say about rapes and murders that happen in the elite section of our societies, done by rich and non religious people, Now Please don't tell me no rape happen in Defense or DHA or Clifton Areas, or blue areas of Isb, you have all sorts of dirty and disgusting things happening there too but rich people have lots of Quaid-e-Azam to throw at news papers and news channels to put the story under the rug, but a poor person's crime is highlighted in a society like he did and that was the first of its kind.
This Particular story has no molvi , no religious person involved in it but people who are from the elite of the society, and you will hear from the same religious people who are asking for the strongest punishment for the rapists and Murderer, PDF is literally the place and you can go look back, people who holds the religious values dear are one to ask for harsher Punishments whether the person committing the crimes is a Molvi, or rich person. You are nit picking few comments who are saying that the girl did the wrong, and indeed Yes she did the wrong when she went to this psycho's house to stay with him, now you can not tell me they were going to play monopoly all night or cards, and it all comes back to where? Islamic system POV would be more Proactive, she shouldn't be going into a house of a Non-mehram to begin with, If Allah asks his creation not to do something he has his reasons and wisdom which you and me won't ever understand, that is why we let the Quran and Allah decide our Moral and ethnical values because those serve as Objective Morality for us, a rule which is created by someone who created us from DNA to a live breathing human being.

I rest my case here, no hard feelings for you :) you are always one my favorite posters to read.
Let me put the entire crux of my criticism of certain Pakistanis posting here in one paragraph.

1. They claim that if this girl was more religious it would have saved her from this outcome
I say that is BS and the news I posted just adds to it. The issue doesn’t lie whether this girl was liberal or conservative but poor judgement and compounded by the callous attitude of the man’s elite parents.

2. They claim that while they feel “sad” it is only “logical” that this happened to this type of girl and this “company” of people . I can posts some 50 news articles showing conservative girls and boys who either succumb to a combination of frustrations or their own character which leads to similar escapades and crimes.

3. The claim that by not acknowledging that having more Islamic laws(once they can even agree what that is) would have prevented this from happening. I say BS, Saudi Arabia has the strictest laws and yet plenty of social ills exist which are snuck under the rug.

I am an American as well with family in Pakistan whose family probably has lost a lot more and given more then any of the dipshits here claiming to be warrior for The Islam , so lets not play that card.I can lay out with news and video proofs what my family has done for that country and it will outmatch most of these people claiming to be the next Aziz Bhatti of online Pakistani defense martyrs. However, I am not going to brush everything and paint it all pretty just for the sake of assuaging egos anymore. If I speak of the ills in the United States of which are plenty even though this country gave me everything from nothing, then I have every right to speak against a country and people that took everything and gave nothing back. Especially for people that have nothing better in their lives than to let horrors of society slide and then wipe it away with the usual toilet paper statements of “If we had Islam, or true Islam these problems would never exist” while conducting horrible acts in its name.

Are 4 year olds not raped in the United States or other western societies which these people bring up as an excuse here? They do and it’s a real and prevalent issue here - heck read the abuse stories of boyscouts or pastors all over. But I have yet to read statements from Americans stating that mote christianity would have saved those victims.

That 4 year old girl was raped by a man who likely stood in the mosque a few hours before that and like me and others here recited “iyyaka na'budu wa iyyaka nastaeen” ... I’m waiting for the statements on how more of such “Islam” would have saved this child.
 

Dr-who

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It's not Izlam that is at fault
Neither are the liberals
But it US who are at fault, just looo at our leaders, bureaucracy, laws and our eagerness to follow law and discipline.
 

Goritoes

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1. They claim that if this girl was more religious it would have saved her from this outcome
I say that is BS and the news I posted just adds to it. The issue doesn’t lie whether this girl was liberal or conservative but poor judgement and compounded by the callous attitude of the man’s elite parents.
Ok, I hear you and even thou I said that I rest my case but I have to respond because your Posts even from your POV is right but have a lot of loopholes and misconception, and things you are mixing and unable to see it through, which is extremely frustrating for me because you are well verse in religion and worldly education.

Again, for third time those who are claiming that Islam would saved her from the outcome are not saying in a sense that if she was more modest she wouldn't have that fate, First of all whatever happen to us and every living creature has been written ions before Allah has created us, it is well secured in a Lohe Mehfooz, now whether you believe it or not its your Problem not mine, the Tablet aka Lohe Mehfooz is in Quran and one can not argue who claims to be a Muslim, so Allah has written her fate, her death, with all other exception long before she was out of her mothers womb, now on the act itself yes if she follows Islam more strictly it could've saved her like in a sense, that First of all she wouldn't have BF to begin with which is against the teaching of Prophet, second she wouldn't be lying about going to Ijtima and going to her crazy BF house for sex, so technically if she follows Islam that would definitely Help her and she would be alive today, but again whatever Allah decree for her life and death we have no say in it nor we can do anything to change it except Pray to Allah for guidance.
You are claiming that it is because of Poor judgement but you failed to mention what makes you think it was a poor Judgement? the Poor judgment can be both in a sense of Islam and her catching the red flags from the psycho, yes she should've pick up that psycho's signals but again if she was on the deen she wouldn't be on the path of self destruction to begin with, Her death (doesn't matter) how brutal has nothing compared to what awaits her in Hell (if Allah decides to put her there) Again not my decision but only Allah has that Power.

2. They claim that while they feel “sad” it is only “logical” that this happened to this type of girl and this “company” of people . I can posts some 50 news articles showing conservative girls and boys who either succumb to a combination of frustrations or their own character which leads to similar escapades and crimes.
Again mere bhai, what does it matter if some people say certain things? you are not to judge and generalize the entire nation and religious community for the comments of few, you said it yourself in your own posts bhai... Again you have 50, I'd say you have 500, 5000, 500,000 cases , news or articles what does it has to do with a fact that a man who believe that following a religion strictly to its teaching can save us from the wrong doings and ill fates? I stopped at red light a man made law to avoid crashing myself and others, if someone believes that laws set by the creator can help us, them or any victim of a crime then it is not yours nor my position to criticize them brutally and wrap everyone with a stereotypical brush to paint.
Every human is different and Islam acknowledge this very well, but there is a reason why certain rules are given straight to the community to protect not individuals but the society it self from going into the abyss of darkness, and yes in that regard people have within their rights to judge them based on the laws given in Quran and Hadith, because if we can not judge anyone then there is no reason to have these rules because Allah is not going to come down to earth to judge everyone, he has appointed first Prophets then their successors to rule us through the guidance and authority which is established once the community picked up their rulers.

3. The claim that by not acknowledging that having more Islamic laws(once they can even agree what that is) would have prevented this from happening. I say BS, Saudi Arabia has the strictest laws and yet plenty of social ills exist which are snuck under the rug.
Now that is straw man argument, yes we have division and sects, but Islam and its rulings are certain, Not talking about the family of Ale Saud or cult residing in Tehran, they can claim whatever they want about the incompletion of Quran or illegitimacy of Rashidun Caliph, but in reality when you and I will die that is no excuse for anyone that we didn't follow the commands because we got Sunni Shia and Qadiyani's, Quran is clear, Quran is complete and so is deen, in this particular matter there is no question that there are various rules which were broken by both parties and because of the so called Liberalism we are trying to hard to prostrate to they won't let the murdered killed for retaliation. Girl become the Victim in this case because she was killed brutally, if the girl who killed the man then the man would be wrong and in both cases at least in the eyes of Islam are subject to same Punishment, try beheading a women for murder such brutal in a world like we live, and see how the leeches of Human rights put Sanctions on your country.

I am an American as well with family in Pakistan whose family probably has lost a lot more and given more then any of the dipshits here claiming to be warrior for The Islam , so lets not play that card.I can lay out with news and video proofs what my family has done for that country and it will outmatch most of these people claiming to be the next Aziz Bhatti of online Pakistani defense martyrs. However, I am not going to brush everything and paint it all pretty just for the sake of assuaging egos anymore. If I speak of the ills in the United States of which are plenty even though this country gave me everything from nothing, then I have every right to speak against a country and people that took everything and gave nothing back. Especially for people that have nothing better in their lives than to let horrors of society slide and then wipe it away with the usual toilet paper statements of “If we had Islam, or true Islam these problems would never exist” while conducting horrible acts in its name.
First of all, with all due respect (I mean it) the bold part is extremely arrogant, again you might be from a educated background and did some jobs in top position with your family but what exactly your and yours family contribution to Islam? and in what regard you think that yours and your family serves the Islam as a global religion, don't be arrogant bhai Allah don't like it and you are neither a Rasool nor Sahabah nor ahle bayt, You calling people Dipshits because of what your own poor judgments is extremely bad, secondly working for Pakistan doesn't mean working towards the benefit of Islam, lets not mix them both because Islam is a religion with global reach and Pakistan is just a country who's majority of Population try's to follow it in their own way.
You are an American and this country gives you a lot and hence you are bias enough to not speak ill of that country, If I argue you are literally Bashing millions of people for a crime which has literally nothing to do with 223 Million Pakistani's nor Islam you think its right? No one in Pakistan except for yes a small minority put the ills of Society under the rug, yes they can't do anything about it and in many instance they are actually doing the crime but one reason which we can argue is that we are far from the religion, because every ill that Pakistani society has today can be sorted out from Islam, and its a claim that I stand behind.
People who commit crimes in the name of Islam, wouldn't be able to do it if we had a more proper understanding of Islam to begin with.

Are 4 year olds not raped in the United States or other western societies which these people bring up as an excuse here? They do and it’s a real and prevalent issue here - heck read the abuse stories of boyscouts or pastors all over. But I have yet to read statements from Americans stating that mote christianity would have saved those victims.
You gotta be kidding me, You never read comments on Youtube, Facebook or twitter ? I mean seriously, If i had time I would just posts comments from Indians, Americans and Westerners and their comments which celebrate deaths of Muslims and many times of Jews, Christians (evangelicals) are some of the most brutal judgmental people you would ever come across. There are countless posts from Christians on criminal news from US include rape, murder and others that Christs would save them, if they were Christian that would not have happened, you are keeping a blind eye on the ills of a certain people because they give you a job, money and etc man you sell yourself for such a low price. As for Americans lets me give you a hint of their own society, you remember Jeffry Epstine and his scandal, Bill cosby , Bill clinton , Judge Roy moore and etc some of them are not, but others like Judge Roy moore are very well recognized Christians and yet the claims about them sexually assaulting women and raping are there for you to ponder. So my friend its not just boyscouts or Pastors, American elite, Govt , judiciary and every aspect of their society has criminals and crazy psychopaths in them and there are also who do victim blaming and have made exact similar claims as you are criticizing Pakistani's and Muslims for, but as you yourself said you won't say anything to them because America gives you job, house , Passport green card etc, hence you my friend lost credibility to judge Pakistani's or anyone for because you are refusing to criticize your own (Americans). Don't judge others when you are not ready to be judged by others.

That 4 year old girl was raped by a man who likely stood in the mosque a few hours before that and like me and others here recited “iyyaka na'budu wa iyyaka nastaeen” ... I’m waiting for the statements on how more of such “Islam” would have saved this child.
Again, a 4 year old girl raped in a mosque which has nothing to do with this case, but let me ask you this what do your think Abu Bakr, Umar , Uthman and Ali RA to all would've done to that Molvi ? I used only 4 caliphs because only they are the Rightly guided ones, so yes what does it matter if a molvi rape a girl in mosque or street ? place doesn't matter the crime does, Masjid's are nothing holy nor any significance is attached to them today, do we consider Masajid to be the house of Allah ? No, so a rape is as wrong as it happens anywhere, having it in a masjid or Church neither make it more bad.
As for you waiting on the people to comment, that how Islam would've saved the child again, Islam can not save anyone people can, if that child's fate is determined by Allah then me or you nor entire world could've saved her, but there is a system which Allah wants us to follow which punishes people like those who rape anyone anywhere. It doesn't matter if you recite Quran everyday unless that message goes down to your heart and nafs, those words " Iyyaka na'budu wa Iyyaka Nastaeen " means nothing if you are just reading them as words and part of job as either mouzin or Iman, Zam Zam is just water unless you believe it has healing power, You can not see Allah and yet you believe he is there, the man who commits any crime or sin, his actions first determined that he lost faith on the fact that even if no one is seeing him/her but at least Allah is watching him and he/she will be answerable for their sins one day, so yes that molvi you keep brining up has forgot that he will die some day to stand in front of his creator to answer and so does this girl who was unfortunately murdered by the psychopath, she also believe that if she sneak from her Parents into her BF house for sex, then Allah will not see her or make it unseen.

I honestly want to continue this conversation but I fear that Mods will ban me for it, so I feel this discussion can not have a productive end.
 
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newb3e

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"Woman found beheaded on sidewalk in Minneapolis suburb | The Independent" https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-beheaded-shakopee-sidewalk-b1893782.html?amp
lets blame Islam and not gold diggers, junkies! or lets just blame Pak society minnesota must be somewhere near Multan!
This is the same girl who is acting innocent in the video. Just look how corrupt these as**oles are!

View attachment 766555
its okay its a rich fked -our librturds!
 

SQ8

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Ok, I hear you and even thou I said that I rest my case but I have to respond because your Posts even from your POV is right but have a lot of loopholes and misconception, and things you are mixing and unable to see it through, which is extremely frustrating for me because you are well verse in religion and worldly education.

Again, for third time those who are claiming that Islam would saved her from the outcome are not saying in a sense that if she was more modest she wouldn't have that fate, First of all whatever happen to us and every living creature has been written ions before Allah has created us, it is well secured in a Lohe Mehfooz, now whether you believe it or not its your Problem not mine, the Tablet aka Lohe Mehfooz is in Quran and one can not argue who claims to be a Muslim, so Allah has written her fate, her death, with all other exception long before she was out of her mothers womb, now on the act itself yes if she follows Islam more strictly it could've saved her like in a sense, that First of all she wouldn't have BF to begin with which is against the teaching of Prophet, second she wouldn't be lying about going to Ijtima and going to her crazy BF house for sex, so technically if she follows Islam that would definitely Help her and she would be alive today, but again whatever Allah decree for her life and death we have no say in it nor we can do anything to change it except Pray to Allah for guidance.
You are claiming that it is because of Poor judgement but you failed to mention what makes you think it was a poor Judgement? the Poor judgment can be both in a sense of Islam and her catching the red flags from the psycho, yes she should've pick up that psycho's signals but again if she was on the deen she wouldn't be on the path of self destruction to begin with, Her death (doesn't matter) how brutal has nothing compared to what awaits her in Hell (if Allah decides to put her there) Again not my decision but only Allah has that Power.



Again mere bhai, what does it matter if some people say certain things? you are not to judge and generalize the entire nation and religious community for the comments of few, you said it yourself in your own posts bhai... Again you have 50, I'd say you have 500, 5000, 500,000 cases , news or articles what does it has to do with a fact that a man who believe that following a religion strictly to its teaching can save us from the wrong doings and ill fates? I stopped at red light a man made law to avoid crashing myself and others, if someone believes that laws set by the creator can help us, them or any victim of a crime then it is not yours nor my position to criticize them brutally and wrap everyone with a stereotypical brush to paint.
Every human is different and Islam acknowledge this very well, but there is a reason why certain rules are given straight to the community to protect not individuals but the society it self from going into the abyss of darkness, and yes in that regard people have within their rights to judge them based on the laws given in Quran and Hadith, because if we can not judge anyone then there is no reason to have these rules because Allah is not going to come down to earth to judge everyone, he has appointed first Prophets then their successors to rule us through the guidance and authority which is established once the community picked up their rulers.



Now that is straw man argument, yes we have division and sects, but Islam and its rulings are certain, Not talking about the family of Ale Saud or cult residing in Tehran, they can claim whatever they want about the incompletion of Quran or illegitimacy of Rashidun Caliph, but in reality when you and I will die that is no excuse for anyone that we didn't follow the commands because we got Sunni Shia and Qadiyani's, Quran is clear, Quran is complete and so is deen, in this particular matter there is no question that there are various rules which were broken by both parties and because of the so called Liberalism we are trying to hard to prostrate to they won't let the murdered killed for retaliation. Girl become the Victim in this case because she was killed brutally, if the girl who killed the man then the man would be wrong and in both cases at least in the eyes of Islam are subject to same Punishment, try beheading a women for murder such brutal in a world like we live, and see how the leeches of Human rights put Sanctions on your country.



First of all, with all due respect (I mean it) the bold part is extremely arrogant, again you might be from a educated background and did some jobs in top position with your family but what exactly your and yours family contribution to Islam? and in what regard you think that yours and your family serves the Islam as a global religion, don't be arrogant bhai Allah don't like it and you are neither a Rasool nor Sahabah nor ahle bayt, You calling people Dipshits because of what your own poor judgments is extremely bad, secondly working for Pakistan doesn't mean working towards the benefit of Islam, lets not mix them both because Islam is a religion with global reach and Pakistan is just a country who's majority of Population try's to follow it in their own way.
You are an American and this country gives you a lot and hence you are bias enough to not speak ill of that country, If I argue you are literally Bashing millions of people for a crime which has literally nothing to do with 223 Million Pakistani's nor Islam you think its right? No one in Pakistan except for yes a small minority put the ills of Society under the rug, yes they can't do anything about it and in many instance they are actually doing the crime but one reason which we can argue is that we are far from the religion, because every ill that Pakistani society has today can be sorted out from Islam, and its a claim that I stand behind.
People who commit crimes in the name of Islam, wouldn't be able to do it if we had a more proper understanding of Islam to begin with.



You gotta be kidding me, You never read comments on Youtube, Facebook or twitter ? I mean seriously, If i had time I would just posts comments from Indians, Americans and Westerners and their comments which celebrate deaths of Muslims and many times of Jews, Christians (evangelicals) are some of the most brutal judgmental people you would ever come across. There are countless posts from Christians on criminal news from US include rape, murder and others that Christs would save them, if they were Christian that would not have happened, you are keeping a blind eye on the ills of a certain people because they give you a job, money and etc man you sell yourself for such a low price. As for Americans lets me give you a hint of their own society, you remember Jeffry Epstine and his scandal, Bill cosby , Bill clinton , Judge Roy moore and etc some of them are not, but others like Judge Roy moore are very well recognized Christians and yet the claims about them sexually assaulting women and raping are there for you to ponder. So my friend its not just boyscouts or Pastors, American elite, Govt , judiciary and every aspect of their society has criminals and crazy psychopaths in them and there are also who do victim blaming and have made exact similar claims as you are criticizing Pakistani's and Muslims for, but as you yourself said you won't say anything to them because America gives you job, house , Passport green card etc, hence you my friend lost credibility to judge Pakistani's or anyone for because you are refusing to criticize your own (Americans). Don't judge others when you are not ready to be judged by others.



Again, a 4 year old girl raped in a mosque which has nothing to do with this case, but let me ask you this what do your think Abu Bakr, Umar , Uthman and Ali RA to all would've done to that Molvi ? I used only 4 caliphs because only they are the Rightly guided ones, so yes what does it matter if a molvi rape a girl in mosque or street ? place doesn't matter the crime does, Masjid's are nothing holy nor any significance is attached to them today, do we consider Masajid to be the house of Allah ? No, so a rape is as wrong as it happens anywhere, having it in a masjid or Church neither make it more bad.
As for you waiting on the people to comment, that how Islam would've saved the child again, Islam can not save anyone people can, if that child's fate is determined by Allah then me or you nor entire world could've saved her, but there is a system which Allah wants us to follow which punishes people like those who rape anyone anywhere. It doesn't matter if you recite Quran everyday unless that message goes down to your heart and nafs, those words " Iyyaka na'budu wa Iyyaka Nastaeen " means nothing if you are just reading them as words and part of job as either mouzin or Iman, Zam Zam is just water unless you believe it has healing power, You can not see Allah and yet you believe he is there, the man who commits any crime or sin, his actions first determined that he lost faith on the fact that even if no one is seeing him/her but at least Allah is watching him and he/she will be answerable for their sins one day, so yes that molvi you keep brining up has forgot that he will die some day to stand in front of his creator to answer and so does this girl who was unfortunately murdered by the psychopath, she also believe that if she sneak from her Parents into her BF house for sex, then Allah will not see her or make it unseen.

I honestly want to continue this conversation but I fear that Mods will ban me for it, so I feel this discussion can not have a productive end.
Unfortunately, it seems that you are eager to focus on your perception of bias and generalizations on my behalf but are unable to identify offer me the same reprieve - much like the same Pakistanis who started off with this generalization of liberals or religious people to begin with.

You keep citing loopholes and misconceptions but apart from repeating adnauseum on trying to defend the deen when it is not even the subject of criticism. That is echoing the same knee jerk defensive mentality that forms the basis of what I critique about Pakistanis in general. Islam is not under attack when this girl was brutally murdered - it is Pakistani society and its responses to everything from social injustice and inequality.

Look at your own posts - you went from doing everything to defend Pakistani society,
To explaining fait accompli to me while not 15 posts ago I am presenting the example of Hazrat Khidr having to kill the child due to his future as an evil person, to talking on how you must defend Pakistan because of your ties to it but mine being irrelevant and insignificant, to then panickly linking them to Islam when Islam was never the object of discussion nor is Islam bound to Pakistan otherwise , to accusing me of not criticizing United States when I began my paragraph by doing just that and the diatribe on Roy Moore! It’s laughable that you are engaging in such an ardent defense of Islam as if you are some holy warrior and I’m some kuffae at the gates while happily dismissing my arguments or putting words in my mouth. Ironically, where you are constantly accusing me of judging others you have done so some times in your 3 posts.. either practice it or don’t preach it hypocritically.

Let me reiterate, shariat and its derived Fiqh aren’t the subject of the issue. Trying to repeatedly drag the religion as a defense of the actions or inaction of the people is. Imam Hussain’s martyrdom was written at the hands of a fellow muslim, Allah had decreed it. But Allah also says “Verily,we have shown him the way, whether he will be grateful or ungrateful (is up to his/her will)” - so which is it then? Either there is no choice or a choice but you can’t seem to understand the difference between compulsion and causation even as you try to explain it. Would Islam have saved her from having him as a boyfriend and him eventually killing her? Consider her environment, her friends and family - would “Islam” have prevented that? At what stage? When it is Hazrat Abu Bakr’s own son who went to grab Hazrat Usman’s beard who could be closer to Islam? How is it that Hazrat Umar became muslim?
You are confusing causation with character - Allah presented her and her family with all the choices to make in her life - if only she put her first foot in them it was upto Allah whether her second foot was to follow or not. If her death was written in such a gruesome manner, even with Islam all around her those choices she made could be repeated all over again and I’ve seen too many examples in my life with overtly religious people making heinous acts that confirms my faith in character having a big determination in outcomes.

Which is where I circle back to my argument, please don’t drag in Allah’s guidance and his commandments as some saving grace for this girl when the entire society makes a mockery of them in the first place. The entire thread is rife with judgements on her and anyone who objects to that when even in the places where the Quran echoes day and night there are men who commit sodomy with boys.


Our rasool, the best of creation, the first of the Ummat - was known as an outstanding human being long before he ever heard “Iqra..” … I don’t say Pakistanis are the scum of the earth nor do I think everyone from the same 200 million gene pool as me is terrible.. there are much worse examples and many in your local zip code.. but they don’t all claim to be “ matlab kya .. La Illaha illlallah” .. which is probably what everyone from the corrupt politicians or general or bureaucrats or policeman or businessman or bank clerk recites, as do those men who slaughtered 140 kids in the Peshawar cantt school also said too. If you still feel that gives Pakistanis the right to judge and talk on how Islam would have saved this girl.. then lets agree to disagree and I too will abandon this thread.
اهْدِنَا الصِّرَاطَ الْمُسْتَقِيمَ

صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ الْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا الضَّآلِّينَ
lets blame Islam and not gold diggers, junkies! or lets just blame Pak society minnesota must be somewhere near Multan!

its okay its a rich fked -our librturds!
I wasn’t aware that Minnesota was a muslim majority or called itself an Islamic state and its people considered themselves all prepared to equate with Riyasat e Madina in character? Next time Im in the twin cities I must ask.. I do see a lot of Somalis there thought, practically run the place.
 

Goritoes

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Unfortunately, it seems that you are eager to focus on your perception of bias and generalizations on my behalf but are unable to identify offer me the same reprieve - much like the same Pakistanis who started off with this generalization of liberals or religious people to begin with.
Bhai I literally said from the beginning, generalizing is beneath you, you are well educated and well versed which I am still struggling to understand that what is causing you to be so angry at certain people when you can not for certain say why are they saying what they are saying, I only offers you a alternative explanation that when people say Islam could've saved her life they might mean it the other way which you misunderstood.

You keep citing loopholes and misconceptions but apart from repeating adnauseum on trying to defend the deen when it is not even the subject of criticism. That is echoing the same knee jerk defensive mentality that forms the basis of what I critique about Pakistanis in general. Islam is not under attack when this girl was brutally murdered - it is Pakistani society and its responses to everything from social injustice and inequality.
Bhai deen is indeed the matter of critique here in this thread, I have gone through it and again when you say people are passing judgments on her and saying she deserved it, I asked you to bring forward the evidence of it, then I say that it's the religious people on this vary thread who are also asking for harsher Punishments for this and any rapists in Pakistan, yes there are loopholes in Pakistani' society but which society is Perfect? You often talked about America and Americans, do you consider them to be model society? Perfect ? if yes then " Innil lilahe wainal ilhe rajiun ". I don't know where you live in America I am assuming some rich area in a big city but I am living in a small town of SC, the closest county has a population of around 10k people, and on their Police county website I have read crimes for which people are in and still at large, it gives shivers down your spine.
I am not arguing about that you are attacking Islam, I am arguing that you are misrepresenting something by putting Pakistani's and the religion as main critique, when in this case the Girl or boy has barely anything to do with, As for the premises of how some people might believe Islamic laws in effect this could be avoided I already explained by example of her not having a BF and not visiting a Non Mehram.

Look at your own posts - you went from doing everything to defend Pakistani society,
To explaining fait accompli to me while not 15 posts ago I am presenting the example of Hazrat Khidr having to kill the child due to his future as an evil person, to talking on how you must defend Pakistan because of your ties to it but mine being irrelevant and insignificant, to then panickly linking them to Islam when Islam was never the object of discussion nor is Islam bound to Pakistan otherwise , to accusing me of not criticizing United States when I began my paragraph by doing just that and the diatribe on Roy Moore! It’s laughable that you are engaging in such an ardent defense of Islam as if you are some holy warrior and I’m some kuffae at the gates while happily dismissing my arguments or putting words in my mouth. Ironically, where you are constantly accusing me of judging others you have done so some times in your 3 posts.. either practice it or don’t preach it hypocritically.
Ary bhai, I am not defending the Pakistani society, I am just saying that it is not right nor fair to brutally criticize Pakistani or any nationality or religion ( effects ) in a society by selective cases, if you want to make a opinion over it, it has to be backed by a comparative and detailed study which neither you nor I have conducted, Yes you read some comments from Pakistani's so what? let them have it or say it because they are entitled to their opinion and pass judgements, should they do it? No... but they have the right to so but basing their judgments or some overly extreme people if they are having a certain position does not reflect the whole of society.
Honestly I don't need to defend Islam, I am not one of those who thinks Islam is in danger and I am the new Mehdi, Allah is enough to keep his deen intact just like he did it with Quran, I am no holy warrior neither I give any impression of being one, I never called you nor declare you are Kaffir as well...my judgements are all reactionary when I am responding to you Akhi, my first post on this thread was something like " I want Umar ibn Khattab RA like Justice for this Murderer ".

Let me reiterate, shariat and its derived Fiqh aren’t the subject of the issue. Trying to repeatedly drag the religion as a defense of the actions or inaction of the people is. Imam Hussain’s martyrdom was written at the hands of a fellow muslim, Allah had decreed it. But Allah also says “Verily,we have shown him the way, whether he will be grateful or ungrateful (is up to his/her will)” - so which is it then? Either there is no choice or a choice but you can’t seem to understand the difference between compulsion and causation even as you try to explain it. Would Islam have saved her from having him as a boyfriend and him eventually killing her? Consider her environment, her friends and family - would “Islam” have prevented that? At what stage? When it is Hazrat Abu Bakr’s own son who went to grab Hazrat Usman’s beard who could be closer to Islam? How is it that Hazrat Umar became muslim?
You are confusing causation with character - Allah presented her and her family with all the choices to make in her life - if only she put her first foot in them it was upto Allah whether her second foot was to follow or not. If her death was written in such a gruesome manner, even with Islam all around her those choices she made could be repeated all over again and I’ve seen too many examples in my life with overtly religious people making heinous acts that confirms my faith in character having a big determination in outcomes.
Of course, Fiqh is not the issue never was to begin with in fact my position is very clear that it is just a brutal crime which should be investigated and the murderer needs to be hanged or given Punishment in accordance of the law, I brought the argument of Lohal mehfooz because I wanted to make a certain point, having a choice or not is not the main course of discussion.
As for if and on what Stage I think Islam could've saved her, I made it extremely clear that one can argue that If she was a Practicing Muslim and raised in a good environment she wouldn't have gone to have a BF to begin with, that alone would be enough to save her life, let along her lying about going to Ijtima and ended up at his house, this is literally common sense if she never had make him her BF she would most likely be alive today and we wouldn't be having this conversation, but what Allah decreed for her, why he did and to what he does will always remain a mystery for humans like us, so let it leave it at that. When you say given that she is surrounded by Islam and yet the outcome would be same is once again a extremely poor and far fetched assumption which once again neither you nor I can prove it, my position that if she follows the Islam a bit more strictly might have saved her and I presented my logic and reasoning behind it, which itself falls in line with the narrative of what Allah has commanded us, Do not have BF GF, or engage in sexual activities before Marriage, yes he could've married her and still kill her but at least that women does not have bear the sin of Adulatory.
Again bhai your personal experiences means nothing when it comes making opinions over a whole nation or generalization of a whole lot of people, I can say I have seen liberals engaging in worse manner of behavior but at the end of the day it doesn't matter.

Actually you used a good example of son of Abu Bakr RA, you see that despite the rebellion and civil war and lots toxic words exchanged between the two Parties yet both have honor and dignity that they did not go to generalize the other to win over the hearts, Ali RA was presented head of Zubair RA who left the Fight in Jamal and he in his angry loudly say the man who killed Zubair RA have him basharat of Jahanam, he suicide later on, the point here is that even in times of brutal civil war you have maintain a balance and always keep the good ones from the bad ones, understanding the narrative of people is important and you can not know their thinking from reading their comments nor their posts because, Dil ka haal Allah janta hai, similar to that I am not claiming that you by heart are bad person or away from Islam, you could be a Imam in local Masjid of NY and I would never know that Is why i keep my criticism of your narrative and not your personality and personal life, except and Yes I did made a comment about you being Arrogant about when you say you and your family did a lot for either Pakistan or Islam ( can't say for sure ).

Which is where I circle back to my argument, please don’t drag in Allah’s guidance and his commandments as some saving grace for this girl when the entire society makes a mockery of them in the first place. The entire thread is rife with judgements on her and anyone who objects to that when even in the places where the Quran echoes day and night there are men who commit sodomy with boys.
Again mere bhai, Do Pakistani's support Gay or sodomy ? No, her actions of Zina and having pre-marital affair is being on scrutiny and not her, she is dead and her judgment is with Allah now, similar to that people in Islamic world does not hate a Gay man or gay women, its their act ( homosexuality ) which because the cause of criticism, Yes I would be worried and be brutal with my critics of Pakistani society the day Pakistani openly saying that Raping if fine as long as its done under the guise of Islam, which I know that day never come.

Our rasool, the best of creation, the first of the Ummat - was known as an outstanding human being long before he ever heard “Iqra..” … I don’t say Pakistanis are the scum of the earth nor do I think everyone from the same 200 million gene pool as me is terrible.. there are much worse examples and many in your local zip code.. but they don’t all claim to be “ matlab kya .. La Illaha illlallah” .. which is probably what everyone from the corrupt politicians or general or bureaucrats or policeman or businessman or bank clerk recites, as do those men who slaughtered 140 kids in the Peshawar cantt school also said too. If you still feel that gives Pakistanis the right to judge and talk on how Islam would have saved this girl.. then lets agree to disagree and I too will abandon this thread.
Well at least we did agree on this that at least you are not criticizing the entirety of Pakistani people, I think you take people words to seriously and you except them to behave the exact same as their words, and when they don't you become agitated, Is that the correct understanding? I can be wrong feel free to correct me, As I said in my last post that people recite Quran daily but that message and the essence/message of Quran does not pass through their throats, I can recite Quran in loud speaker all day everyday but for as long Quran is not reflected through my life, my behavior that Quran mean nothing, Zilch Zero. similar to that, Pakistan ka Matlab kia, La illaha illal la, those words means nothing and serve nothing but some overly zealot Mullah's in Power hungry Position, Pakistan is not a Islamic Caliphate and cannot be hence whatever happen in Pakistan done by Pakistani's can never ever be compared with the religion of Islam nor the system it brings. I don't want to respond over the APS incident because TTP is nothing but scums, they are bunch of criminals who just took the guise of Islam to rally support and attract funds from Agencies.
Bhai in the last, I am making it again clear no one should pass judgements but you have to understand that it is in human nature to make a opinion over something, you did it many times in a day and so do it, and yes people can judge a crime or sin specially something which is directly mentioned in Quran as Sin, you can't expect me to judge a murderer and call him scum, and he might say I murder him for Xyz reason, Murder, Rape, Adulatory , Drinking , dishonesty, and many others sins on which if you see someone do it you call a wrong a wrong, if judging was so bad that Rasool Allah will never had said what he said, In a hadith where he said, If one of you see a wrong, then try to stop it with their hands, if unable then say it is wrong and if you can not even do it then at least in heart believe it be wrong, and that is the weakest position of Imaan... now if we can not judge or having opinion of right and wrong done by someone than there is no way to determine who is right or who is wrong, the entire Justice system collapse and wont be able to work.

Plus in last I just want to tell you that, don't take anything personal, you still have same respect as you have before as I always find your posts extremely helpful in social and military topics, If in the heat of argument if i said something that hurt you, then I am sorry. May Allah guide us both, and I wish you and your family where ever they are safety in the times of Covid. Jazak Allah khair
 

LeGenD

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Leadership of a society have an important role to play in shaping its social fabric. Consider Bahrain as a case study.

Bahrain is noted to have maintained a very strong Islamic social fabric and low crime rate:


"Bahrain, while one of the most cosmopolitan countries in the Persian Gulf region, still operates with the teachings contained in the Holy Koran which contains codes for prescribed standards of conduct. The Holy Koran makes up the very fabric of life for the people of Bahrain, and its influence can be seen in the economic, political, and social paths of life within this culture. Accord-ing to symposium proceedings on the “Effects of Islamic Legislation on Crime Prevention in Saudi Arabia”, the word for Muslim law (Sharia) has the teachings of the Holy Koran and the Prophet Muhammad tightly interwoven into it. The religion of Islam is the most important social structure in Bahrain. Islam has opposed wrong-doing in all of its forms and claims that wrong-doing can lead to the downfall of all societies. Islamic teachings attempt to eradicate the commission of crime before it happens by influencing the human conscience. The Prophet says that the power of the conscience is much strong-er than any other external force. Perhaps, it is that this Islamic society internal-ized its Muslim tradition and as an outgrowth of this internalization of religion comes law-abiding behavior. So, a violation of the law is not only a crime against society, but a violation of the principles of God. Bahraini citizens are encouraged to pray five times a day. There are moral police officers who regulate the dress and public behavior of its citizens. Even in the wake of rapid industrialization, the norms of the Muslim religion are adhered to.

Ordinary citizens are given access to the ruler of Bahrain (Shaikh Isa bin Sulman AL Kalifa). This present Amir is the 10th member of the AL Kalifa family to rule Bahrain. The Kalifa family has ruled Bahrain since 1783 A.D., and this shows the consistency of governing for over 200 years. This ruler is available for a couple of days each month and it is this practice that makes people feel that they are in touch with the head of their government and have a voice in the concerns and issues that face the country.

The effects of the Muslim religion can be seen in other informal social control aspects of life in Bahrain. Those that will be discussed in this section are the family (it takes the responsibility for the less fortunate in their society i.e., the poor, widows, orphans, ill, and the aged); this concern also extends to the neighborhood, education, and to the social affairs that most often revolve around family activities."


Pakistani leadership is unable to play its role in shaping social fabric of the country however. When our leadership system is money-oriented and hostage to political fueds between powerful families, what to expect from the masses beneath?

The job of shaping social fabric is relocated to Molvi in Pakistan instead. The problem is that even Molvi are not on the same page over various themes.
 

SQ8

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Bhai I literally said from the beginning, generalizing is beneath you, you are well educated and well versed which I am still struggling to understand that what is causing you to be so angry at certain people when you can not for certain say why are they saying what they are saying, I only offers you a alternative explanation that when people say Islam could've saved her life they might mean it the other way which you misunderstood.



Bhai deen is indeed the matter of critique here in this thread, I have gone through it and again when you say people are passing judgments on her and saying she deserved it, I asked you to bring forward the evidence of it, then I say that it's the religious people on this vary thread who are also asking for harsher Punishments for this and any rapists in Pakistan, yes there are loopholes in Pakistani' society but which society is Perfect? You often talked about America and Americans, do you consider them to be model society? Perfect ? if yes then " Innil lilahe wainal ilhe rajiun ". I don't know where you live in America I am assuming some rich area in a big city but I am living in a small town of SC, the closest county has a population of around 10k people, and on their Police county website I have read crimes for which people are in and still at large, it gives shivers down your spine.
I am not arguing about that you are attacking Islam, I am arguing that you are misrepresenting something by putting Pakistani's and the religion as main critique, when in this case the Girl or boy has barely anything to do with, As for the premises of how some people might believe Islamic laws in effect this could be avoided I already explained by example of her not having a BF and not visiting a Non Mehram.



Ary bhai, I am not defending the Pakistani society, I am just saying that it is not right nor fair to brutally criticize Pakistani or any nationality or religion ( effects ) in a society by selective cases, if you want to make a opinion over it, it has to be backed by a comparative and detailed study which neither you nor I have conducted, Yes you read some comments from Pakistani's so what? let them have it or say it because they are entitled to their opinion and pass judgements, should they do it? No... but they have the right to so but basing their judgments or some overly extreme people if they are having a certain position does not reflect the whole of society.
Honestly I don't need to defend Islam, I am not one of those who thinks Islam is in danger and I am the new Mehdi, Allah is enough to keep his deen intact just like he did it with Quran, I am no holy warrior neither I give any impression of being one, I never called you nor declare you are Kaffir as well...my judgements are all reactionary when I am responding to you Akhi, my first post on this thread was something like " I want Umar ibn Khattab RA like Justice for this Murderer ".



Of course, Fiqh is not the issue never was to begin with in fact my position is very clear that it is just a brutal crime which should be investigated and the murderer needs to be hanged or given Punishment in accordance of the law, I brought the argument of Lohal mehfooz because I wanted to make a certain point, having a choice or not is not the main course of discussion.
As for if and on what Stage I think Islam could've saved her, I made it extremely clear that one can argue that If she was a Practicing Muslim and raised in a good environment she wouldn't have gone to have a BF to begin with, that alone would be enough to save her life, let along her lying about going to Ijtima and ended up at his house, this is literally common sense if she never had make him her BF she would most likely be alive today and we wouldn't be having this conversation, but what Allah decreed for her, why he did and to what he does will always remain a mystery for humans like us, so let it leave it at that. When you say given that she is surrounded by Islam and yet the outcome would be same is once again a extremely poor and far fetched assumption which once again neither you nor I can prove it, my position that if she follows the Islam a bit more strictly might have saved her and I presented my logic and reasoning behind it, which itself falls in line with the narrative of what Allah has commanded us, Do not have BF GF, or engage in sexual activities before Marriage, yes he could've married her and still kill her but at least that women does not have bear the sin of Adulatory.
Again bhai your personal experiences means nothing when it comes making opinions over a whole nation or generalization of a whole lot of people, I can say I have seen liberals engaging in worse manner of behavior but at the end of the day it doesn't matter.

Actually you used a good example of son of Abu Bakr RA, you see that despite the rebellion and civil war and lots toxic words exchanged between the two Parties yet both have honor and dignity that they did not go to generalize the other to win over the hearts, Ali RA was presented head of Zubair RA who left the Fight in Jamal and he in his angry loudly say the man who killed Zubair RA have him basharat of Jahanam, he suicide later on, the point here is that even in times of brutal civil war you have maintain a balance and always keep the good ones from the bad ones, understanding the narrative of people is important and you can not know their thinking from reading their comments nor their posts because, Dil ka haal Allah janta hai, similar to that I am not claiming that you by heart are bad person or away from Islam, you could be a Imam in local Masjid of NY and I would never know that Is why i keep my criticism of your narrative and not your personality and personal life, except and Yes I did made a comment about you being Arrogant about when you say you and your family did a lot for either Pakistan or Islam ( can't say for sure ).



Again mere bhai, Do Pakistani's support Gay or sodomy ? No, her actions of Zina and having pre-marital affair is being on scrutiny and not her, she is dead and her judgment is with Allah now, similar to that people in Islamic world does not hate a Gay man or gay women, its their act ( homosexuality ) which because the cause of criticism, Yes I would be worried and be brutal with my critics of Pakistani society the day Pakistani openly saying that Raping if fine as long as its done under the guise of Islam, which I know that day never come.



Well at least we did agree on this that at least you are not criticizing the entirety of Pakistani people, I think you take people words to seriously and you except them to behave the exact same as their words, and when they don't you become agitated, Is that the correct understanding? I can be wrong feel free to correct me, As I said in my last post that people recite Quran daily but that message and the essence/message of Quran does not pass through their throats, I can recite Quran in loud speaker all day everyday but for as long Quran is not reflected through my life, my behavior that Quran mean nothing, Zilch Zero. similar to that, Pakistan ka Matlab kia, La illaha illal la, those words means nothing and serve nothing but some overly zealot Mullah's in Power hungry Position, Pakistan is not a Islamic Caliphate and cannot be hence whatever happen in Pakistan done by Pakistani's can never ever be compared with the religion of Islam nor the system it brings. I don't want to respond over the APS incident because TTP is nothing but scums, they are bunch of criminals who just took the guise of Islam to rally support and attract funds from Agencies.
Bhai in the last, I am making it again clear no one should pass judgements but you have to understand that it is in human nature to make a opinion over something, you did it many times in a day and so do it, and yes people can judge a crime or sin specially something which is directly mentioned in Quran as Sin, you can't expect me to judge a murderer and call him scum, and he might say I murder him for Xyz reason, Murder, Rape, Adulatory , Drinking , dishonesty, and many others sins on which if you see someone do it you call a wrong a wrong, if judging was so bad that Rasool Allah will never had said what he said, In a hadith where he said, If one of you see a wrong, then try to stop it with their hands, if unable then say it is wrong and if you can not even do it then at least in heart believe it be wrong, and that is the weakest position of Imaan... now if we can not judge or having opinion of right and wrong done by someone than there is no way to determine who is right or who is wrong, the entire Justice system collapse and wont be able to work.

Plus in last I just want to tell you that, don't take anything personal, you still have same respect as you have before as I always find your posts extremely helpful in social and military topics, If in the heat of argument if i said something that hurt you, then I am sorry. May Allah guide us both, and I wish you and your family where ever they are safety in the times of Covid. Jazak Allah khair
It seems you are echoing exactly what I am saying except different in certain aspects. I am pointing to those with opinions (because really that is all it is online as such) and saying they are wrong to project those opinions unless they see their own backyards as squeaky clean.

Taking the girl as an example, her indulging in zina is condemnable but that doesn’t mean she isn’t the only one in Pakistani society nor is it a problem confined to the “elite and liberals”..countless examples for me to cite and I am sure many others can too. But those are also linked to key social issues such as difficulty of access to basics of life, redefintion of those basics to let new families emerge earlier , inequalities of wealth, caste and sect biases etc. Will solving all of those end Zina? No, but it will definitely reduce those occurrences. America is a great example of how in coexistence with Islamic values Zina(or the temptation of it) is reduced. Do muslim girls not engage in it here? Yes they do and you probably could comment better(or not comment).. but there are also practicing muslim girls who still are able to find their choice of husband through various means and due to the nature and easier access to start a family here without relying on the support of the previous generation and judgement of society - start their married lives(and vice versa for muslim men). Now are there are not bad people in this mix and cheats so on and so forth.. yes, but it doesn’t take away from the effectiveness of the society in removing frustrations and making marriage easier(lets not drag in the general malaise and loss of social construct in American society since even though it affects American muslims to an extent it hasn’t completely broken through yet) . That hasn’t been the case in Pakistan in general which also contributes to temptation and so on but is another off topic debate.

Circling back, just as the Prophet (S.A.W) ignored the man confessing Zina multiple times before the punishment - one should not engage in the same especially when the society in general and not just this girl(who may not be innocent herself) is feeding and sustaining the ills that lead to this. Finally, to your point that if all of Pakistan is saying rape for Islam is ok or sodomy is ok.. that would only be valid if it wasn’t happening. It is happening, it is happening in places where Islam is taught regardless of whether it penetrates their hearts or not it should infuriate you the same as you express for the criminals part of TTP and others. Because at the end someone is learning that “Islam” and will pass it on and hurt others with it. While this occurs, screaming that Liberals and elite are the only problem(not that they don’t benefit and perhaps promote or ignore it for their own gains) for Pakistan is hypocrisy and delusions.
 

m52k85

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2. They claim that while they feel “sad” it is only “logical” that this happened to this type of girl and this “company” of people . I can posts some 50 news articles showing conservative girls and boys who either succumb to a combination of frustrations or their own character which leads to similar escapades and crimes.
Agreed, but does driving drunk increases chances of accident, does dating a drugi increase chances of injury, does it increase chances of death? Do we lock our doors because the locks are unbraekable or does it just adds a layer of protection?
 

Goritoes

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It seems you are echoing exactly what I am saying except different in certain aspects. I am pointing to those with opinions (because really that is all it is online as such) and saying they are wrong to project those opinions unless they see their own backyards as squeaky clean.

Taking the girl as an example, her indulging in zina is condemnable but that doesn’t mean she isn’t the only one in Pakistani society nor is it a problem confined to the “elite and liberals”..countless examples for me to cite and I am sure many others can too. But those are also linked to key social issues such as difficulty of access to basics of life, redefintion of those basics to let new families emerge earlier , inequalities of wealth, caste and sect biases etc. Will solving all of those end Zina? No, but it will definitely reduce those occurrences. America is a great example of how in coexistence with Islamic values Zina(or the temptation of it) is reduced. Do muslim girls not engage in it here? Yes they do and you probably could comment better(or not comment).. but there are also practicing muslim girls who still are able to find their choice of husband through various means and due to the nature and easier access to start a family here without relying on the support of the previous generation and judgement of society - start their married lives(and vice versa for muslim men). Now are there are not bad people in this mix and cheats so on and so forth.. yes, but it doesn’t take away from the effectiveness of the society in removing frustrations and making marriage easier(lets not drag in the general malaise and loss of social construct in American society since even though it affects American muslims to an extent it hasn’t completely broken through yet) . That hasn’t been the case in Pakistan in general which also contributes to temptation and so on but is another off topic debate.

Circling back, just as the Prophet (S.A.W) ignored the man confessing Zina multiple times before the punishment - one should not engage in the same especially when the society in general and not just this girl(who may not be innocent herself) is feeding and sustaining the ills that lead to this. Finally, to your point that if all of Pakistan is saying rape for Islam is ok or sodomy is ok.. that would only be valid if it wasn’t happening. It is happening, it is happening in places where Islam is taught regardless of whether it penetrates their hearts or not it should infuriate you the same as you express for the criminals part of TTP and others. Because at the end someone is learning that “Islam” and will pass it on and hurt others with it. While this occurs, screaming that Liberals and elite are the only problem(not that they don’t benefit and perhaps promote or ignore it for their own gains) for Pakistan is hypocrisy and delusions.
Lets just agree to disagree on some of the parts, you don't have to agree with me 100% neither do I, so we can have a peace here, I'll let others continue the discussion.
 

SQ8

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Agreed, but does driving drunk increases chances of accident, does dating a drugi increase chances of injury, does it increase chances of death? Do we lock our doors because the locks are unbraekable or does it just adds a layer of protection?
All of these do - but, that doesn’t mean driving sober provides 100% protection against other drunk drivers or that locks don’t lead to greater temptation from thieves thinking something valuable is inside. We can all say the accident was bound to happen under the circumstances, but that doesn’t mean we say “serves you right!”
 

Bilal.

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All of these do - but, that doesn’t mean driving sober provides 100% protection against other drunk drivers or that locks don’t lead to greater temptation from thieves thinking something valuable is inside. We can all say the accident was bound to happen under the circumstances, but that doesn’t mean we say “serves you right!”
Anyone saying (or thinking) “serves you right” are plain wrong and disgusting. But being disgusted at discussing an aspect and the dynamics behind the whole episode is wrong.

It’s not victim blaming or saying “glad it happened to her” or that the killers crime should be diluted in anyway. But turning a blind eye to a very negative culture that’s spreading in this particular class or getting into whataboutry to bring other negative/criminal aspect of the society and diverting the discussion from topic at hand makes no sense.
 
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