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For Pakistan, time to try India as a friend (resurrection)

osamaziadxb

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lol...7 lac army in kashmir?? hahahah... Seems like Epic zahil hamids database below that funny red cap..:P

Btw....No it would be better for you to join LET, cause as you said you wana fight till the last drop of your blood :P And your wish will only come true by doing that....:D:D

You know...;) lolz

Come on Sir G! At-least we haven't regular army in Kashmir:sniper:
 

Hulk

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It's not necessary to become "friends", especially considering the historical distrust.

Rather, a relationship of mutual cooperation will work just as well.

China and Japan for instance, despite our past history, today have the largest bilateral economic relationship in all of Asia. And the chances of a shooting war breaking out between China and Japan, are almost zero.

Everyone is making a profit, no one has to worry about an ICBM landing on their heads. Win-win.

Indians already agreed to this, it is Pakistan that has to agree. We have to accept that as per border is concerned status quo is what it is going to be. So move on and start doing business.
 
Sep 5, 2010
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Sure we have made mistakes but to say that we were entirely wrong and Indians were always right is absolute BS.It was the same Musharraf who then extended a hand of friendship but your Political Leadership failed.

Cmon with which pakistan are we to make an pact?
military or civil govt?
Mr.vajpayee and Mr.sharif were close to an agreement on kargil, and the coup occured...
musharaff backstabbed india too!!!
Then how can he expect india to trust him?
It was oly in his later years in his office did he take real efforts to diffuse tension and and an agreement was reached!!!
But alas govt changed and a new process started again which was damped again by mumbai terrorist carnage!!!
The change in mindset is required from pakistan both from govt instituitions and from peoples ofcourse !!!
 

Bang Galore

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Pakistan’s India policy, and the tyranny of arithmetic

First of all, before reading any further, you should go read this excellent op-ed in Dawn by Adnan Rehmat(For Pakistan, time to try India as a friend | | DAWN.COM). For me, this is the key section:

The military early on crafted a national security doctrine that helped it manufacture a national security state (as opposed to a national welfare state). This is based on the supposed “clear and continuing” danger from India to unravel Pakistan. The doctrine extrapolates that this “perpetual threat” is a projection of India’s supposed “capacity” to hurt Pakistan rather than its intention to make peace.

The problem with this contention is that India may have the same stance on Pakistan, which means this is a formula for an unending arms race and not a remedy to war, which should be state’s priority. India’s ruling elites may have been averse to the idea of Pakistan and hostile to the new country in the early decades but it follows that after the acquisition of nuclear weapons by Pakistan and their testing in 1998, the deterrent has demolished any existential threat to Pakistan from India. The Lahore summit between the popularly elected civilian governments of both countries (Sharif’s in Islamabad and Vajpayee’s in New Delhi) within a year of the nuclear tests was an affirmation of this new reality. So why no let-up in the paranoia even 15 years down the line?

The issue here is very simple: rapprochement with India is a strategic necessity for the Pakistani state. This is a very simple and very correct point that sometimes gets lost in the national security discourse in Pakistan. But really, it is the point from which all other analysis should depart.

In a post last week, I showed a chart of the CINC scores of China and the U.S. As some of you may recall, the CINC score is a composite index of state power drawn by the Correlates of War project, including a country’s defense spending, industrial production, and total and urban populations. It is basically a measure of a state’s material power. You may buy its methodology or you may not, but most people will concede that trends and trajectories do reveal themselves over time with data like this.

So I got curious and plotted India’s and Pakistan’s CINC scores since 1947. This is what it looks like:

CINC-scores-Ind-and-PK1.jpg


And just for kicks, here’s a chart of the countries’ respective GDPs over time:

GDPs-Ind-and-PK1.jpg


Now, call me crazy, but that’s not a race we can win. Hell, it’s not even a race we should race.

One thing to note is that this really shouldn’t be an establishment/bloody civvies issue. It shouldn’t be a rural-urban issue. It shouldn’t be a mullah-liberal issue. It should not be a Pakistaniat-ghaddar issue. It shouldn’t be an ANP-MQM or PML(N)-PPP issue, or even an Imran-Miandad issue.

At the end of the day, this is simply a matter of numbers. It’s the tyranny of arithmetic. Look at those graphs above. Those blue and red lines are not conveying anything about ideology or identity or injustice. It’s just numbers, nothing more, nothing less. All Pakistanis should be able to look at them and agree on what they say.

Now, if we start from the proposition that we cannot win an arms race with India, then a whole bunch of other things becomes clear. For example, India’s force positions and scary-sounding battle plans like Cold Start should not be taken as a sign that we should ramp things up from our end. They should be taken as a sign to withdraw from security competition altogether, especially since the state’s external security is guaranteed with its nuclear arsenal.

You will notice that I’m leaving the whole angle of domestic politics out of this. That is to say, even without considering factors such as the military’s outsized influence in our state apparatus and society, and how the dispute with India feeds the military beast, it’s still a strategically sound choice to withdraw from a race we are destined to lose. On a purely interstate level of analysis, no reasonable person can call for anything else, based on the facts and empirics of the case.

It’s interesting that the upper echelons of the military establishment are spoken of, by both local and some international observers, as being cunning and Sun Tzu-ian and being inherently aware of Pakistan’s strategic needs — realists par excellence. But a real realist would recognize that security competition with India is the precise opposite of what our national interest calls for. There really is no way to get past this.

Pakistan’s India policy, and the tyranny of arithmetic | Asian Correspondent
 

somebozo

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That is because India cannot be trusted. It may conceal its malicious intentions behind a friendly face and continue to instigate trouble in Pakistan by funding and arming covert groups. Mukti Bahini, BLA, MQM anyone remembers them?
 

Bhairava

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That is because India cannot be trusted. It may conceal its malicious intentions behind a friendly face and continue to instigate trouble in Pakistan by funding and arming covert groups. Mukti Bahini, BLA, MQM anyone remembers them?

You can think that it is the exact way we want the Pak generals to think to lure them into an un-winnable arms race and and the downward spiral accompanying with it.

Sadly the day you realize that you have been played, it would have been too late.
 

Bang Galore

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That is because India cannot be trusted. It may conceal its malicious intentions behind a friendly face and continue to instigate trouble in Pakistan by funding and arming covert groups. Mukti Bahini, BLA, MQM anyone remembers them?

You have completely missed the point of the article. Nowhere does it suggest that India is to be trusted or is a friend, all it says is that Pakistan is in an un-winnable race and the longer it continues on this path, the more it will fall behind.
 

DV RULES

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Pakistan’s India policy, and the tyranny of arithmetic

First of all, before reading any further, you should go read this excellent op-ed in Dawn by Adnan Rehmat(For Pakistan, time to try India as a friend | | DAWN.COM). For me, this is the key section:



Pakistan’s India policy, and the tyranny of arithmetic | Asian Correspondent


CJCSC links regional peace to IHK solution

ISLAMABAD: Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee (CJCSC), General Khalid Shameem Wynne has said that “as long as the (Indian held) Kashmir (IHK) issue remains un-resolved, this region is likely to remain unstable”.

He said: “We must therefore continue to find ways and means to find a just solution of the Kashmir dispute as it is only fair to all the people who dwell in this region and the world at large”.

CJCSC links regional peace to IHK solution - GEO.tv



So there is no place of stupid articles and views unless this issue can't be resolved as Pakistan want.
 

Contrarian

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To be really honest. Its in Indian interest to see Pakistan spend more on security than on domestic issues. While we cap out defence expenditure to a maximum to say 2.5% of GDP and to increase defence expenditure, you increase the economy. But Pakistan to match has to reduce expenditure on other things which doesnt increase the size of pie as much as they could have(and drastically so) were they not spending as much on defence.

So it keeps giving an edge to India year on year and hopefully decade on decade.
 

DV RULES

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More over what planning is going on to put pressure over Pakistan for softening hard line policy about territorial issues with India is well known to Pakistan. Both articles emphasized their own point of thinking but it far away from what majority thinks.

By black sheep are not difficult to find even in world of journalism.
 

Masterchief

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That is because India cannot be trusted. It may conceal its malicious intentions behind a friendly face and continue to instigate trouble in Pakistan by funding and arming covert groups. Mukti Bahini, BLA, MQM anyone remembers them?
we have the same feelings for you the only difference is that our list runs longer.
 

Bhairava

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ISLAMABAD: Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee (CJCSC), General Khalid Shameem Wynne has said that “as long as the (Indian held) Kashmir (IHK) issue remains un-resolved, this region is likely to remain unstable”.

Don't you understand ? This is exactly what the mandarins in New Delhi want the Generals in Islamabad to think.

I firmly believe it is in the interests of India to maintain the status quo, not completely solving the Kashmir issue nor escalating so that the the Generals in Pindi keep spending the money on arms which would have been better spent on nation building.
 

deckingraj

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Don't you understand ? This is exactly what the mandarins in New Delhi want the Generals in Islamabad to think.

I firmly believe it is in the interests of India to maintain the status quo, not completely solving the Kashmir issue nor escalating so that the the Generals in Pindi keep spending the money on arms which would have been better spent on nation building.

You are giving too much credit to New Delhi...It is quite clear that we don't have a policy on how to deal with Pakistan...We are a confused lot...Some fine day we say no talks till blah blah blah...and some day we say let's talk as that is the only way....

I don't think Nee delhi is happy in maintaining status quo however since current status quo is favoring us Pak needs to bring a lot to the table to get any meaningful settlement(from their perspective)....
 

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