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Follow IMF or Islam?

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Trango Towers

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U r acting like a troll here. Whats is your problem? If you don't believe, its your choice but don't make simple people doubt their religion.
When yiu have no answers to fundamental questions...loool. the jahils Muslim like you resort to name calling.

Who asked you to jump on the bandwagon? Was my post to you? Idiot

Carry on with your bs ... this is why we Muslims are in trouble because fools like u carry the banner with zero understanding. Big mouths pea brains. Which club do u belong to razwi or qawi?
 

Mr.Green

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When yiu have no answers to fundamental questions...loool. the jahils Muslim like you resort to name calling.

Who asked you to jump on the bandwagon? Was my post to you? Idiot

Carry on with your bs ... this is why we Muslims are in trouble because fools like u carry the banner with zero understanding. Big mouths pea brains. Which club do u belong to razwi or qawi?
Don't pick our brains with your issues. Go to Islamic University and waste their time ya apne mohalle ke maulvi pe roab jharo.
 

AZMwi

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See again my previous post. Abu Bakar is human, he is not God, not even prophet. See my previous post and I explain this with context.
Hazrat Abu Bakar R.A is not just any human . he was inarguably the best companion of Prophet Muhammad S.A.W and the best man to ever walk on this earth after All the Prophets and messengers. He was chosen by Prophet Muhammad S.A.W to lead the prayer during his lifetime and he is among Ashra Mubashra. and Prophet S.A.W said that i have returned the favor of every single person on this earth who stood by me or did any good for me except Abu Bakar. ALLAH himself will return the favors of his good deeds on my behalf. So whatever he did or said he did them according to the teachings of Islam. and besides u ignored the Quranic verse i quoted in my post about collection of zakat.
 

AZMwi

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Read again the context and what I have explained. I said Voluntarily in the context on collection. It is mandatory for all Muslim who is eligible but my position is that in term of collection, it is voluntarily, I mean people who dont pay Zakat will get sin, while those who pay will get good deeds.

Government hand should not reach this matter. This is private things, similar like praying, wearing hijab and others. There is no punishment written in Quran verses regarding person who dont pay Zakat as it is directly related to God, different with shariah law talking about killing, Zina, stealing and others which requires Government hands in term of establishing the courts and forcing the punishment.

About my position that Government should not impose it to their citizen is in my other posts where I have explained it quite clearly.

I want to explain a little bit of Why Abu Bakar fought the one who refuse to pay Zakat ? It is similar like if rich Indonesians refuse to pay tax, they will be put in jailed or paying huge fine. In the beginning of Islam, there is no taxation yet, actually Zakat is regarded as tax to make the administration function. Region who refuse to pay Zakat during Abu Bakar period is similar like becoming a separatist region.

Zakat in modern day is more toward helping other people, while government can still run with the money coming from tax
u need to provide reference from Quran or Hadith in order to prove your point. Zakat is not a tax to run government. It is collected from the rich by the government and distributed among the poor.

Allah has clearly mentioned the musarf e zakat (recipients) and sadaqah in Quran in these words:

اِنَّمَا الصَّدَقٰتُ لِلْفُقَرَآءِ وَالْمَسٰکِیْنِ وَالْعٰمِلِیْنَ عَلَیْھَا وَالْمُؤَلَّفَۃِ قُلُوْبُھُمْ وَ فِی الرِّقَابِ وَالْغَارِمِیْنَ وَفِیْ سَبِیْلِ اللّٰہِ وَابْنِ السَّبِیْلِ ؕ فَرِیْضَۃً مِّنَ اللّٰہِ ط وَاللّٰہُ عَلِیْمٌ حَکِیْمٌ۔

Meaning: “Indeed sadaqah is for Fakirs, Masakeen and for Amileen (those deployed to collect zakat), those in whose hearts the inculcation of love for Islam is aimed at, and to free the captives and remove the burden of debtors and (those who toil hard) in the way of Allah and for the wayfarers. This has been prescribed by Allah. Allah, the All-Knower, the Most Wise.”(9:60)

Tax can be consumed by the governments but Zakat cannot be used by the governments to run its day to day operations.
U are mixing zakat with tax. both are different.
 

EasyNow

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Zakat is like a wealth tax not income tax. It is being practiced voluntarily but that practice is wrong as it should be collected and distributed by Govt.

So the government most Pakistanis don't trust with their taxes, now you want them to collect zakat too?


In my opinion, if the banks are State Owned Companies then getting interest can still be done, it can still be regarded as another type of tax in which government under Shariah Islam can get the tax from its citizen ( Zakat is the same form of tax in substance ).

Out of 10 biggest banks in Indonesia, 7 are state owned, 1 private own where 50 % stakes traded in stock exchange, and 2 foreign owned banks, the biggest ( Mandiri Bank ) and second biggest ( BRI Bank ) are also SOE.

The taxation in Islam is based on the situation, there is why in Quran there is story about prophet Yusuf who said the king must collect more grain to be put at storage within 10 years as a way to face drought in the next 10 years.

Your intellectual approach to Islam is too much for some basic zealots to digest.
 

Indos

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u need to provide reference from Quran or Hadith in order to prove your point. Zakat is not a tax to run government. It is collected from the rich by the government and distributed among the poor.

Allah has clearly mentioned the musarf e zakat (recipients) and sadaqah in Quran in these words:

اِنَّمَا الصَّدَقٰتُ لِلْفُقَرَآءِ وَالْمَسٰکِیْنِ وَالْعٰمِلِیْنَ عَلَیْھَا وَالْمُؤَلَّفَۃِ قُلُوْبُھُمْ وَ فِی الرِّقَابِ وَالْغَارِمِیْنَ وَفِیْ سَبِیْلِ اللّٰہِ وَابْنِ السَّبِیْلِ ؕ فَرِیْضَۃً مِّنَ اللّٰہِ ط وَاللّٰہُ عَلِیْمٌ حَکِیْمٌ۔

Meaning: “Indeed sadaqah is for Fakirs, Masakeen and for Amileen (those deployed to collect zakat), those in whose hearts the inculcation of love for Islam is aimed at, and to free the captives and remove the burden of debtors and (those who toil hard) in the way of Allah and for the wayfarers. This has been prescribed by Allah. Allah, the All-Knower, the Most Wise.”(9:60)

Tax can be consumed by the governments but Zakat cannot be used by the governments to run its day to day operations.
U are mixing zakat with tax. both are different.

See my posts since page 1. I have made many posts to explain it
 

EasyNow

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In Pakistan the safest and highest yielding investment is buying plots and houses. If a person has more than one house or plot, he should be taxed for it,

Property owners do pay extra taxes - stamp tax when they buy it, land tax every year, tax on profits from property and then tax on profits when they sell. There is even a tax when you leave the property to your children.


Zakat is an individual's obligation. If govt wants to impose zakat it must relieve some other tax.
 

Indos

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So the government most Pakistanis don't trust with their taxes, now you want them to collect zakat too?




Your intellectual approach to Islam is too much for some basic zealots to digest.

Many Muslim think Islam is just actions, after they do the action then it will be completed.

While in fact, Islam is very detail and deep about Niat ( Intention) and Tauhid ( no other entity should be in the same league as God in our live )

I want to give example "

1. If Zakat is collected by Government - It makes our intention to give Zakat can be destroyed
2. If Zakat is voluntarily/private matter ( in term of collection ), so our Niat is protected as long as we dont say it to other people, we give Zakat because of ALLAH, not because of our government impose it to us.

They dont also think in substance where in prophet Muhammad time, there is no tax yet, so the nation relied heaviily in Zakat, this is why Abu Bakar declare war if any one doesnt want to pay Zakat. Without Zakat, the nation in Madinah and Mecca cannot run.

Now, we have tax which is way higher than Zakat. We must pay Zakat of course beside tax to government

I dont understand with Muslim who wants their live under Government, not under God directly
 

ahmadnawaz22

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These kind of threads are prime example of Failure of Muslim societies today.
"Just Love the face and forget the soul"

Zakat is also a tax. Its concept is the same like tax in a welfare state.
"Collect from Those who have excess and spens on those who require"

Back then in early days , Zakat was implemented as per the economy of the time. Like People had Gold , Annual crop , Animals etc. Then there were primitive institutions lile Beit Al maal for managing the collections etc.

And we are stuck with the implementation of Zakat in the same way it used to implement 1400 ago.

And Arguing on Zakat vs Tax. What about implementing zakat on only those areas where it was collected in early days , like Crops , Gold reserves etc. And exempt all other modern activities like Currency reserves , Service providers , Manufacturers , High Salaries. Even in its current form , Zakat is collected on Say Saving accounts i.e They have changed it compared to Early ages. Is it also unislamic? Is it not zakat anymore?

My own opinnion is any collection made by the government from high income population for welfare of state and its people can be called zakat in a Muslim state. Afterall its an arabic word meaning "Maal kovPak karne wala" or "That purifies the wealth".Dont call it tax Make it like saving zakat , Income Zakat , Profit Zakat etc.

Anyone agree with me? Or should we keep playing with words?
 

EasyNow

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Many Muslim think Islam is just actions, after they do the action then it will be completed.

While in fact, Islam is very detail and deep about Niat ( Intention) and Tauhid ( no other entity should be in the same league as God in our live )

I want to give example "

1. If Zakat is collected by Government - It makes our intention to give Zakat can be destroyed
2. If Zakat is voluntarily/private matter ( in term of collection ), so our Niat is protected as long as we dont say it to other people, we give Zakat because of ALLAH, not because of our government impose it to us.

They dont also think in substance where in prophet Muhammad time, there is no tax yet, so the nation relied heaviily in Zakat, this is why Abu Bakar declare war if any one doesnt want to pay Zakat. Without Zakat, the nation in Madinah and Mecca cannot run.

Now, we have tax which is way higher than Zakat

I dont understand with Muslim who wants their live under Government, not under God directly

Some people focus so much on the minutiae of Islam but they don't understand the spirit.

You are right - hospitals, schools, free services for the poor run from public money. We are paying way over zakat already.

These kind of threads are prime example of Failure of Muslim societies today.
"Just Love the face and forget the soul"

Zakat is also a tax. Its concept is the same like tax in a welfare state.
"Collect from Those who have excess and spens on those who require"

Back then in early days , Zakat was implemented as per the economy of the time. Like People had Gold , Annual crop , Animals etc. Then there were primitive institutions lile Beit Al maal for managing the collections etc.

And we are stuck with the implementation of Zakat in the same way it used to implement 1400 ago.

And Arguing on Zakat vs Tax. What about implementing zakat on only those areas where it was collected in early days , like Crops , Gold reserves etc. And exempt all other modern activities like Currency reserves , Service providers , Manufacturers , High Salaries. Even in its current form , Zakat is collected on Say Saving accounts i.e They have changed it compared to Early ages. Is it also unislamic? Is it not zakat anymore?

My own opinnion is any collection made by the government from high income population for welfare of state and its people can be called zakat in a Muslim state. Afterall its an arabic word meaning "Maal kovPak karne wala" or "That purifies the wealth".Dont call it tax Make it like saving zakat , Income Zakat , Profit Zakat etc.

Anyone agree with me? Or should we keep playing with words?

Absolutely right, its playing with words to satisfy mullah egos - with zero logical reasoning. Same as with halal mortgages - where you pay 'profit share' instead of interest. But you end up paying as much or more than a normal mortgage - with all the same risks.
 

ahmadnawaz22

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Many Muslim think Islam is just actions, after they do the action then it will be completed.

While in fact, Islam is very detail and deep about Niat ( Intention) and Tauhid ( no other entity should be in the same league as God in our live )

I want to give example "

1. If Zakat is collected by Government - It makes our intention to give Zakat can be destroyed
2. If Zakat is voluntarily/private matter ( in term of collection ), so our Niat is protected as long as we dont say it to other people, we give Zakat because of ALLAH, not because of our government impose it to us.

They dont also think in substance where in prophet Muhammad time, there is no tax yet, so the nation relied heaviily in Zakat, this is why Abu Bakar declare war if any one doesnt want to pay Zakat. Without Zakat, the nation in Madinah and Mecca cannot run.

Now, we have tax which is way higher than Zakat. We must pay Zakat of course beside tax to government

I dont understand with Muslim who wants their live under Government, not under God directly
Brother thats not how Islam works. There are distinct 2 categories of Obligations on a Muslim. 1 is on his own self other is toward the society and law. For the first one you are free to do as you please only Allah will judge you. For other , You cant do as you please. Like you cannot carry out the command of Allah that "Kill the one who commits murder" you cannot "Declare Jihad" you cannot start "Collecting Zakat"
You are obliged to follow your government. Thats the order of Allah. Not following the laws of state is like not following command of Allah. State is the institution that represents the Second category i mentioned.
Even if you are national of Russia or UK. You take an oath on their passport. And breaking the owth knowingly is against Islam. If you feel that living there is getting in way of fulfilling your duty toward Allah then keave the place.
Thats how muslims always operated. Absolute Loyalty to state.
Infact by the end of Abbasids , They were just nominal rulers of Baghdad and there were very powerdull muslims states around them like Selkujs , Mamluks of Egypt , Khurasan , Sultanat of Delhi etc but all field oath of loyalty to the central figurehead. Infact when Jalaludin Mingbarnu Fled Khorasan after being defeated by Mongols , Delhi sultans didnt gave him support because he had issues with Abbasids in Baghdad. Yes they refused to support Mingbarnu against Changez khan because Mingbarnu had problems with baghdad.
Modern mullahs have created so much confusion relating to Early Muslim societies its baffling.
You have to force the state to make good laws and rule by law. Not to create social anarchy with this concept of State vs God and declaring your self as interpreter and enforcer of law of Allah.
 

Indos

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Brother thats not how Islam works. There are distinct 2 categories of Obligations on a Muslim. 1 is on his own self other is toward the society and law. For the first one you are free to do as you please only Allah will judge you. For other , You cant do as you please. Like you cannot carry out the command of Allah that "Kill the one who commits murder" you cannot "Declare Jihad" you cannot start "Collecting Zakat"
You are obliged to follow your government. Thats the order of Allah. Not following the laws of state is like not following command of Allah. State is the institution that represents the Second category i mentioned.
Even if you are national of Russia or UK. You take an oath on their passport. And breaking the owth knowingly is against Islam. If you feel that living there is getting in way of fulfilling your duty toward Allah then keave the place.
Thats how muslims always operated. Absolute Loyalty to state.
Infact by the end of Abbasids , They were just nominal rulers of Baghdad and there were very powerdull muslims states around them like Selkujs , Mamluks of Egypt , Khurasan , Sultanat of Delhi etc but all field oath of loyalty to the central figurehead. Infact when Jalaludin Mingbarnu Fled Khorasan after being defeated by Mongols , Delhi sultans didnt gave him support because he had issues with Abbasids in Baghdad. Yes they refused to support Mingbarnu against Changez khan because Mingbarnu had problems with baghdad.
Modern mullahs have created so much confusion relating to Early Muslim societies its baffling.
You have to force the state to make good laws and rule by law. Not to create social anarchy with this concept of State vs God and declaring your self as interpreter and enforcer of law of Allah.

I dont say we should be in anarcy and no government. You need to see my post since first page.

There is areas where government cannot touch, private matter and Zakat in my opinion is one of them beside praying, wearing hijab and others

Better we dont debate on this, lets agree to dissagree, Islam cannot move if we dont have tolerance to other people opinion

See my post in first page where I say paying tax for Muslim in Muslim country can be part of Jihad. Then you will understand where I reason. There should not be black and white interpretation when I say we should be directly under God.

I know the important of government
 

R Wing

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To follow Islam, do it properly. Emphasize the rational sciences. Get rid of rent-seeking maulvis. Start working hard and taking extreme responsibility. Implement a ruthless meritocracy.

We don't want that. We only want some cosmetic elements of Islam for such discussions.
 

Trango Towers

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Don't pick our brains with your issues. Go to Islamic University and waste their time ya apne mohalle ke maulvi pe roab jharo.
How do I pick the brains of MR Green when he doesn't have one.?

See people like you push Islamic issues on us. When we ask basic of islams ur single cell brain cannot cope. So the only thing you have is go push your issues on islamic universities amd mohalla molvis. So which molve taught you to bark...must be razwi or diesel or was it qawi.
THIS THREAD IS CREATED BY YOU DOPEY..THIS IS YOUR ISSUE. Can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen
 
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AZMwi

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See my posts since page 1. I have made many posts to explain it
Zakat is voluntarily action which actually not that high,

Tax is not un-Islamic, it is way to help the country, similar like the way we have to raise our swords/rifle when we face a war. See economy as some kind of war as well, as if your economy is in bad shape, your chance to win any war if some country attack you will be smaller

If God ask us to fight the invader that can cost us live, so why tax is forbidden and un- Islamic ??????
and that's what I am trying to explain to you that Zakat is not voluntary. its mandatory. its one of the 5 pillars of Islam. I have given you references from Quran and Hadith.

I have no issue with your point of view on tax being Islamic or Un-Islamic. if the govt has to fight a war or to support the economy, certain taxes can be imposed on the population but Zakat has a different purpose altogether. Zakat is imposed on the rich and distributed among the poor and it is compulsory for the govt to do so. Sadaqah on the other hand is a voluntary action and a personal matter of an individual and is not mandatory.
 

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