• Monday, December 9, 2019

FLY-BY-WIRE F-15SA MAKES FIRST FLIGHT

Discussion in 'Air Warfare' started by Nishan_101, Mar 30, 2013.

  1. Nishan_101

    Nishan_101 BANNED

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    [​IMG]
    The U.S. Air Force and its prime contractor Boeing have completed a successful first flight of the new F-15SA advanced fighter aircraft for the Royal Saudi Air Force.

    The F-15SA's maiden voyage took place Feb. 20 at the Boeing facilities in St. Louis. The flight went as planned, meeting all test objectives to support the aircraft's on-schedule development.

    "The successful first flight of the F-15SA is a tremendous milestone for the program and a testament to the relationship between the (U.S. Air Force), Boeing, and our RSAF partners," said Lt. Gen. C. D. Moore II, the commander of the Air Force Life Cycle Management Center here. "The F-15SA will add critical capability to the RSAF and enhance the security of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia."

    [video]www.youtube.com/watch?v=47emiHnK6VU[/video]

    The new aircraft is the centerpiece of the Royal Saudi Air Force F-15 Fleet Modernization Program, a wide-ranging $29.4 billion effort that stands as the largest foreign military sale in U.S. history.

    The F-15SA brings improved performance, enhanced situational awareness and increased survivability at a lower total life-cycle cost. Avionics advancements include a Digital Electronic Warfare Suite, Fly-By-Wire flight control system, an Infrared Search and Track system and Active Electronically Scanned Array radar. Forward and aft cockpits feature advanced displays and Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems. Two additional weapon stations provide increased payload capacity.

    Col. Robert Stambaugh, the Air Force Security Assistance Program Manager for the F-15SA program at Robins Air Foce Base, Ga., highlighted the joint efforts of the program office at Wright-Patterson AFB and the Boeing team.

    "Col. Rob Strasser and his program team at (Wright-Patterson AFB) were instrumental in overcoming the hurdles encountered in the march to first flight," Stambaugh said. "Completing this major milestone in less than one year after program implementation was truly remarkable."

    The F-15SA flight test program will include three instrumented F-15SAs operating from Boeing facilities in St. Louis and Palmdale, Calif. F-15SA new aircraft deliveries to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia are scheduled to begin in 2015 and conclude by 2019.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Nishan_101

    Nishan_101 BANNED

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    But still I would say it was far better for KSA, UAE, Jordan and Oman to join in EU on any Basic, Intermediate and Advance Jet trainer program(Like T-50 golden in this case US and S.Korea) along with EF-2000, then it will be like:
    RSAF: 300-410 EF-2000s
    UAE: 150 EF-2000s
    Jordan: 150 EF-2000s
    Oman: 150 EF-2000s(which doesn't have a good airforce can have some decent amount of planes)

    All this is not impossible....

    Ok.
     
  3. IamINDIA

    IamINDIA FULL MEMBER

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    Ok.
    ..............
     
  4. muslim282

    muslim282 FULL MEMBER

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    Why didn't the saudis instead go for the stealth eagle.
     
  5. AUSTERLITZ

    AUSTERLITZ SENIOR MEMBER

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    I'm jealous of saudis for first time in my life,especially of 30 billion dollars amount and the AESA radar.Hell if saudis actually had any pilots of calibre and not mercs ,israel would be in serious trouble with that airfleet.
     
  6. Horus

    Horus ADMINISTRATOR

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    Saudis have some serious gear.
     
  7. Roybot

    Roybot BANNED

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    What makes you think that Saudis don't have any "pilots of caliber"? Whats with this cockiness? Saudi pilots have a very rigorous training regime and they train along with Western air force pilots. No reason to believe why they are any less than their counterparts in other air force.

    As far as Israel is concerned, both Israel and Saudi Arabia are strong US allies. So there won't be any trouble any time soon.
     
  8. Horus

    Horus ADMINISTRATOR

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    Saudi pilots are trained by the Americans, Pakistanis, Turks, are regular visitors to the Red Flag, Anatolian eagle, Train with PAF and let me assure you that there have been,are and will be Saudi graduates from PAF's Combat Commanders School ,considered to be one of the best DACT schools in the world. Saudi pilots are beyond any doubt one of the best trained in the world.
     
  9. AUSTERLITZ

    AUSTERLITZ SENIOR MEMBER

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    On f-16 forums they regularly deride the ability of middle eastern pilots,especially the saudis.Acc to the veteran forumers there evenegyptians are better than the saudis.Among us muslim nation allies usually they consider turkey and pak pilots good quality,followed by egypt then saudi and rest.Since these people are experienced guys,so i thought they are probably right.Also its true that saudi airforce is regualrly called tiger of paper and has many foreign pilots.
     
  10. gambit

    gambit PROFESSIONAL

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    Count me one of them.

    I have little respect for the Saudi pilots as a lot. Individually, I have met a few that I would place among our ranks, but not with the Fighter Weapons School or Top Gun graduates. As a whole, the Saudi pilots are emotionally immature and arrogant. They do not take their craft seriously and by that I mean the whole thing, from their airmanship, to their jets, and to the support crews.
     
  11. AUSTERLITZ

    AUSTERLITZ SENIOR MEMBER

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    Here are some excerpts from various forums on saudi air force.

    ''Worked with them on Red Flag with their F-15s. Short answer - No. Blue on blue and wouldn't admit any mistakes. Let off the hook by a USAF Colonel so they didn't lose face.''

    ''The Americans coming back from 12 month alfa tours with them reckon that they are marginally worse than the IqAF (by c.1991 standards) and would struggle against the IrAF today. Of course, against the IDF there would be no contest.
    A friend of mine kept an online diary of his one year tour as an FTU IP on the F-15S. Buffoonery abounded. It was hilarious.''

    ''Yes it was. They were given a Mission Lead and screwed up royaly. However, their CAS was visiting and our USAF hosts decided to gloss over their inadequacies for political reasons. When we threatened to pull the tapes to prove how bad they were we were effectively told to be quiet. Very annoying''.

    ''I heard some horror stories from GW 1, including RAF pilots refusing to fly with brainless Saudi's.''

    ''A quote comes to mind " hard to soar like an eagle when you work, in this case, with goats".

    ''Taxydual on 'liaison visit'.
    Israeli's send an RF4 PR aircraft on a regular basis (ie you could set your watch by the timing of the overflight).
    3 x RSAF on QRA.
    All scrambled.
    No 1 loses a donk on takeoff. Crashes in the bondhu.
    No 2 forgets to remove the pitot tube cover, aborts.
    No 3 realises he has no 'mates' to go with him and votes to no-go.
    All 3 pilots were 'of the Royal House' (ie money no object), they 'bought' their Pilots Wings rather than earned them. ''

    ''Arab pilot (Saudi I think) forgets to select full flap on landing, and inevitably takes the barrier. Crash crews find an empty cockpit. Pilot found reading in the anteroom, and had to be shown the auth sheet to convince him that it was indeed he who had entered the barrier! ''.

    ''My info is dated. 92 93. RSAF trying to launch 8 sorties in morning and 8 in afternoon. Easily had ground abort rate of 50 per cent. Simple stuff pulled circuit breakers, disconnected connectors. american USAF pilots fly as instructors in RSAF AIRCRAFT. On the saudie shootdown you talk about rsaf wingman could been an american pilot. USAF WING will turn and burn each aircraft 3 times a day in wartime. Saudies do not know what a combat quickturn is. Saudie matawaha would great me each day with WOULD YOU LIKE TO DIE TODAY? what a asshole. spend 2 hours setting up equipment to train and the saudies go on prayer, coffe break 5 times a day. nothing gets done unless the americans do it. When the americans were brought back in 92,93. the saudies were lucky if they could fly 2 in the morning, 2 in the afternoon. RSAF is a flying club for the princes, do you think they would risk their life in combat. During gulf one, most rsaf went home. One day saudie hooked up hyd mule to aircraft and hose came off spewing 3000 pd sq inch fluid everywhere. This is a multi thread connector, that you double check. lucky no one was killed that day.''
     
  12. Jango

    Jango MODERATOR

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    One of my relatives is a ex-PAF instructor in a Gulf AF, and the story he tells are amusing indeed!!!

    These guys managed to crash 2 aircraft in one day and they just laughed it off! A rescue op was initiated for the pilot and what do you know, he took a taxi after ejection and went back to the base while a search party was combing the area for the pilot!
     
  13. AUSTERLITZ

    AUSTERLITZ SENIOR MEMBER

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    More...

    ''Did I mention that no military service in Saudi Arabia has a viable NCO corps? And their ?Imams? (we have chaplains) almost reminds one of the political officers in the old Soviet military. RSAF Intelligence is more concerned about keeping tabs on RSAF personnel than any effective application of intelligence processes to produce any threat assessments to be applied to any actual war planning (remember, the House of Saud has the U.S. umbrella). For example, once an RSAF member gets a training slot ? say to the U.S. ? he has to attend a briefing on the evils of western culture, and on his return a de-briefing to se if he has not been too contaminated with western thoughts.''

    ''The Royal Saudi Air Force couldn't fight (or fly) it's way out of a wet paper bag. They spent a whole lot of money on 72 new F-15S's, but have a pilot corps that are "fair-weather" flyers (both figuratively and literally). But even if they had pilots that would fly under all conditions (particularly combat conditions), too bad - they don't have any maintenance capability. All of that are done by American ex-pats (for F-15's) and British (for Tornado's). A side note here: There may be only 4-500 Americans servicing the F-15s, but nearly 3000 Brits to service half that many Tornado's. The joke at Dhahran AB is that the static display of a Tornado on a pedestal at the main gate is the only Tornado that they can keep in the air. You also have to understand how the money flows to get an even better idea of RSAF readiness (or total lack thereof). All Base commanders usually are members of the Royal family (or married into it) - and it is a money cow. The greatest number of personnel on an RSAF base is TCN's (third-country-nationals), thousands and thousands of Bangladesh, Indian, Philippine workers. Contracts are written up that provide millions in kick-backs - some of course goes to the base commander. But that doesn't even touch the billions of dollars into the purchase of all those aircraft - it's for the kickbacks, not national defense (what do you think the U.S. Air Force is there for?). Now American defense contractors make a killing, why should they care either? For example. first Boeing and then Raytheon made billions on putting in a highly sophisticated air command and control system called "Peace Shield", but it was and remains flawed. One example: The system is suppose to identify friendly vs. hostile aircraft so the Royal Saudi Air Defense Command (that's right a service totally separate from the RSAF)can fire. The RSAF has a control command which is suppose to tell the Air defense people to "hold fire". But what really happens is that when the RSAF pushes the button to command "hold fire" the Air Defense consoles light-up with the command to "fire". As if this minor technical flaw wasn't enough, billions in billing were added to give all these command centers filtered air systems for protection against NBC. Great on paper to make the billing statement, but non-existant in reality. I could go on-and-on about lack of training as well. One example has Saudi maintenence personnel towing a "hot" (just landed) F-15 into a hangar. Plane catches fire, burns up with the hangar. What happened? Well no discipline on the Saudi dumb-*****, but their training records were pulled and numerous ex-pats sent home because they had signed off on training them. Since the training obviously did not stick, it was obviously an ex-pat trainer who was to blame. Not the dumb-*****, not there Saudi NCO or Officer chain-of-command, but ex-pats. The only time a saudi maintenence troop is allowed anywhere near an aircraft with any tool in his hand is when Saudi VIPs are on a tour - it would be funny if these senior RSAF officers knew enough to ask their troops what they maintennce was being done - but they don't. Don't even get into the sub-levels of tribal allegiences that totally disrupts any concept of chain-of-command or military discipline. If you are from the right tribe you get the works, guick promotions (get the answers to your SKT and promotion tests)''

    '' Lets talk about the Saudi-ization plan, and how Al Salam is an Saudi owned company, so its no wonder they beat out foreign competitors. Only one problem. Saudi-ization doesnt work, because the Saudis are inherently lazy and under-trained to do the needed work. Hey, sorry but I call a spade a spade. I have worked a couple of contracts in Arabia, one during Gulf War 1 for Lear and the next being shortly post 9/11 and I was amazed at how downhill the RSAF had gone. I worked both contracts at Kang Fahad A.F.B. Taif close to the Al Hadda mountain range, one of the most beautiful spots in Arabia. My second contract I worked as a ParaRescue/PJ Instructor for the 9th Helicopter Flying Wing. I was contracted thru Agusta Helicopter and worked quite a bit with Bell Helicopter at the same base. Al Salam took over the contract from Agusta and won some other contracts as well. When they took over these contracts they re-hired the same american and philipino civilian contractors that where working there before. So to say Saudias are doing the work is completely mis-leading number one. Number 2: The RSAF is in a shambles. Try to think of it this way. The war fighting capabilities of the RSAF are directly proportionate to the number of american and british contractors that work there, or where working there. Why are there less foreign contractors there now? You know the answer RSAF...Saudization Plan. You sound like the Saudi diplodunks promoting how great it is working there, where as in reality, the whole program is a farce. My last contract I arrived Jan. 02 just after 9/11 and was shocked at what I saw compared to 91 when I had left after GW1. F-5s and F-15s mostly in shambles and being robbed for parts. Many parked on the tarmac in a state of total dis-repair and many with missing parts. Why were they being robbed for parts? Becuase thier credit line with MD (McDonnel Douglas) and many other aircraft parts suppliers are maxed out. They are notting getting the credit they used to, and are short of money for the parts. I was also told that the parts suppliers who also supplied the contact repair personnel were not exactly happy about being booted out of thier contracts either, and arent in any big hurry to ship parts there. This is verbatem info I recieved from a skeleton crew of american aircraft repair techs, brought in by Al Salam. Evidenced and witnessed by moi.... F-5s on the ramp with no tires. Aircraft that had tires were so threadbare they would only fly them once or twice a week. The next 10 months I was there I only saw two F-15s fly once!! The base looks like its in mothballs, a deserted ghost-town. Except for alot of troops marching around, then hiding Allah knows where during the day. The only time I would see to many of them is when they would come out to the base commanders cheering rallies supporting the downing of the twin towers. Yes, our allies hard to believe. It was about that time I knew these would probably be my last days in Arabia. The best aircraft on the base where our Helos, UH-1s(bell 212`s) and being upgraded to 412`s (better avionics package & exterior winch for rescue) and even these spent most of thier time downed. The missions we did fly were rarely more than 10 miles from the base!! When I questioned pilots why, I usually recieved the same answer. We dont want to get lost. Huh??? What stuck me as funny was how these pilots always seemed so arrogant and sometimes indigent with me. We could start a whole other thread on the in-correct attitudes and Arab mentality when it comes to Arab military command. The commanders thrive on fear and putting that into the troops.... well, I dont want to go off on a side rant, but believe me, it takes some getting used to and adjusting to work with Arab officers on a daily basis. By the way, the BA compound had the best damn homeade dark beer I ever tasted. Crafty guys....''

    ''Being a veteran ex-pat from Saudi, I can say they do have problems getting the Saudis to take care of their equipment, and I was working with the only force truly capable of fighting (the National Guard)''.

    ''One very simple question - could the RSAF fly sustained "combat" ops without contract maintenance? Remember, combat operations would entail maintenance performed at each dispersed hangar on your bases - not a depot/consolidated maintenance set-up as it is day-to-day. This would, in-turn, require even more RSAF maintenance personnel than the RSAF currently has. But if your answer is yes, then that would beg the question why is there any need whatsoever for any American/Brit contract maintenance personnel at all - whether their contracts are under the name of Al Salaam now or Boeing/McDonnel Douglas/Lockheed in the past. Second, what is the status of the RSAF warfighting concept of operations - especially in the area of base support (also refered to in NATO as survive-to-operate) capability. Last I heard it was either non-existant or at best only concepts at the RSAF HQ - again formulated by American/British contract personnel. Among certain support activities that may exist at RSAF bases in name only is fire-fighting, EOD, runway-repair, and NBC defense - unless these functions have been contracted out also. And please no fairy-tales about RSAF shoot downs of Iraqi aircraft. Well there were 2 confirmed killed, and it happened something like this: American AWACS and a couple of American fighters - who herded the errant Iraqi flyers into a kill zone "set-up" for a Saudi F-15. Given the stand-off range and "fire-and-forget" capability of modern air-to-air missles it could hardly be the stuff of legend. All-in-all, besides the Alice-in-Wonderland contract world of Saudi Arabia which paid McDonnell-Douglas a very handsome price for those F-15Ss (degraded avionics and all), we all know that the severe limitations of RSAF in-house maintenance was the only reason the U.S. Congress approved of this sale over Israeli objections (that and the fact that they can't be based in the most Northeastern RSAF base at Tabruk). Given the operational imperative that no fighter jet will ever get enough fuel to reach Riyadh, munitions movement can only be approved personally by a member of the Royal family, and the already mentioned problems in maintenance''

    ''The RSAF themselves, well they are like everyone has posted, nothing has changed. They pencil whip every thing, they do not follow Tech Data, they can't fix anything; it's like it is to complicated for them which it probably is. Most can't read english. Most hired now can't even read their own language and im not saying this out of disrespect. This is what you get with a un educated society. And yes most are not all there. I've seen RSAF just sit there with parts on the ground and have no clue, they wait for the contractor to come and help out, and this is the majority. They came straight from where ever. They act the same way as they alway's have, the elisted corp's all of whom want to be in charge from a two striper and up but dont know jack. And not willing to learn. It's just the way it is. Thats why nothing ever gets done or done correctly. It's hard for the contractor to get things done when they tech out vital jobs such as A.G.E , LOX plants, I.M. Shops, Production, ect. ect. Guess they haven't figured out a way to tech out flight line cause they haven't done it, probably cause the fear something bad would happen. They all leave at 4 not counting tea time and prayer. So there is no support. RSAF headquater's know this ''
     
  14. BeyondHeretic

    BeyondHeretic FULL MEMBER

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    Obviously the Saudi airforce is the only one not falling for this whole drone game... Congratulations saudis
     
  15. gambit

    gambit PROFESSIONAL

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    Back in '93, I was offered six-figures to be in charge of an -15 maintenance shop composed of half Saudis and half US tech reps. Despite the fact that I had no -15 experience, my job was to be a supervisor/manager. The experiment was to have the Saudis take the lead in everything in trying to raise the standards for the entire Saudi Air Force. The pay was for one year with re-up bonus equivalent to %100 of one year's pay and the new contract would also be for one year. All tax free. My apartment and car would be paid for by the Saudi government. Guaranteed 2-weeks off every six months.

    Answer: No.

    Sorry if I offends anyone here, but there is nothing in the ME that is worth my time outside of my duty to country. Nothing from there worth importing back to civilization.