• Thursday, August 22, 2019

F-16s’ Debilitating Conditionalities

Discussion in 'Strategic & Foreign Affairs' started by deathfromabove, Jul 1, 2010.

  1. deathfromabove

    deathfromabove FULL MEMBER

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    F-16s’ Debilitating Conditionalities


    The PAF and the Americans certainly tried to create the perfect photo op with the US Viceregal ambassador Ms Patterson and the Air Chief Rao Qamar smiling for the cameras at Jacobabad air base – once Pakistan’s sove-reign territory but now controlled effectively by the US military. All this apparent bonhomie was the delivery of the first three F-16s to the buyer – the Pakistan Air Force from the US manufacturers. The official press release was almost nauseating in the expression of goodwill towards the Americans and the joy the PAF felt at getting these planes. But behind this entire facade, many things are amiss and all concerned Pakistanis should seriously be worried.

    To begin with, let us remember that we have paid a hefty price for these planes – $1.4 billion along with another $1.3 billion for the upgrade of our existing fleet of F-16s – the few we did manage to get delivery of and for which we have had to scour the globe for spares since the US refused. Luckily we still have a few gutsy and committed allies! So far only three planes in the new order have been delivered though the official spin is four! Let us hope we get all 18 but the past record is certainly dismal. After all, not only did the US keep our money and refused to give us the planes, the manufacturer had the audacity to charge us parking fees and then all we landed up with was wheat and soya beans – not much to bolster our defences on, but certainly a healthy contribution to the US farmers’ pockets! Why should it be any different this time? So far the US track record has not shown a change for the better – given how they are still holding up our dues in connection with the Coalition Support Fund. That too is not aid but payment for services rendered unquestioningly to US goals by the Pakistani state – and at great cost to the Pakistani nation. So let us hope the Pakistan Air Force has learnt some lessons from the past and built in some cast-iron guarantees but it would be worthwhile for our parliamentarians to demand access to the new F-16 purchase agreement. If there are no firm guarantees of supply, we may be seeing a repeat of our past F-16 history all over again. After all, the deal at the time was also made when we were the frontline state for the US in another war in Afghanistan!

    Nor is it just fears of whether we will once again lose our money and end up lining the pockets of some marginalised but politically powerful US lobby such as farmers! A much bigger issue is the terms and conditions which the US insists are attached to the new sales agreement and which our Air Chief denies when he declares that the PAF can use these planes as it sees fit – in other words against any contingency and any enemy. Unfortunately, while expounding on how these new planes will add to the PAF’s capability, the Air Chief focused primarily on the war against “extremists” – something the US also continues to say when explaining the sale of these planes to Pakistan. In fact, the US Assistant Secretary of State, Robert Blake, went especially to New Delhi recently to inform the Indians that the new F-16s will not be used against India. Now how can the US give this assurance unless the Pakistanis have made some foolish commitment in writing to this effect? After all, if there is a conflict with India why would we not want to use our most efficient weapon systems? Have the Indians given any similar commitments vis-à-vis Pakistan in terms of missile defence systems they are acquiring from the US? Of course not! And the US has not assuaged our fears on this count either. Why the Pakistani nation should be concerned is because there have been reports that the US is sending along its own technicians who will ensure that these planes are not used anywhere except against our own people – the “extremists”. TheNation had published this news story (which the US has not denied) and aroused the wrath of the PAF and its PR man who now refuses to answer any questions on the F-16s for us – which he does not seem to realise is his loss not ours!

    As it is, according to Indian and US sources, during last month’s Indo-US strategic dialogue the US administration made it clear that the US would deliver the F-16s to Pakistan under tough conditions which including assurances that these planes would not be used in any conflict against India. With the F-16s US Air Force personnel would also arrive and supervise not only the air base where these planes would be deployed but also the operations carried out by the PAF against “Taliban” and “Al-Qaeda” – as if the ordinary inhabitant of the FATA has his political identity displayed on his forehead! According to reports the logistics, management and control of these F-16s would be with US personnel. So why have we paid for these machines if the US will control them? Clearly the PAF needs to prove this is not the case and that can only be done if the actual agreements are made public. After all, this is a lot of our taxpayers money and we have a right to know what deals are being made with it – especially since it involves our security from the external threat.

    Under these circumstances, it is also worrying to think that all these fighting machines will be used for bombing our own territories and people – and who will then identify how many “extremists” have been killed and how many innocent civilians. Surely our military should realise that indiscriminate killings merely create more resentment and extremism and the reaction to the drones should be a lesson for the PAF. To fight extremism you need paramilitary forces for law and order and politico-economic strategies for isolating these terrorists from the rest of the population. For $1.4 billion the poor citizens expect a more credible nuclear deterrence and protection against the external threat. To hear the Air Chief, Rao Qamar simply go on and on about adding to the capability for fighting extremists and hardly utter any word about the enhancement of delivery systems against the external enemy was distressing and frankly unacceptable. If the new F-16s are to be used primarily against our own territory and people, then the $1.4 billion would have been better spent in development projects for the FATA which would have given far quicker and better results against extremism. Or are we so fearful of the Americans that we cannot speak plainly about our defence and strategic needs? The symbolism of receiving the planes at Jacobabad air base, which the US military still controls, has not been lost on the rest of us Pakistanis. It seems they are already under US control on Pakistani soil. As if to appease us, the US has given out that it will provide fresh water and other facilities for the local people – but that also means to continue its control of this base – which one was told the US had vacated! Are we Pakistanis so easily purchasable by the US?

    Meanwhile, India continues to update its air force with no conditionalities being imposed by any of its foreign suppliers. It is planning to upgrade over 50 of its forward airbases – primarily targeting Pakistan but also China. The Indian Air Chief Naik recently revealed the jointly produced advanced stealth bomber being built with the Russians. It is also planning to buy 126 multirole fighters and has earmarked $11 billion for this purpose. And no one is limiting India’s use of these systems. Only Pakistan falls prey to these debilitating condi-tionalities. Unless some concrete and written texts of agreements are made public, one can sadly say the PAF has once again fallen prey to US diktat for some expensive planes which would truly have acted as a force multiplier within our nuclear deterrence, but which otherwise will become expensive white elephants and only the Pakistani nation will be the victim – once again.

    :pakistan:
     
  2. M8R

    M8R FULL MEMBER

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    By Shireen M Mazari | Published: June 30, 2010
    -
    Stopped right there .
     
  3. blain2

    blain2 ADVISORS

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    The best answer for these reservations is to let things play out. The naysayers will continue to say that we have buckled under pressure and essentially will only use these aircraft against "extremists" no matter what one says to them.

    Had the US placed limitations on us upgrading our F-16s for use against any adversary, the AIM-120s would have been denied, along with the arm twisting of the Swedes to not supply AEW platforms since both these capabilities are for use against external threats.

    I think someone should revisit these aircraft and their status in 2-3 years to respond to these reservations.
     
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  4. XiNiX

    XiNiX BANNED

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    I dont know why PAF went with F16 when it could eaisily get J10s.. declared better than F16s here .. And certainly cheaper and u get a far more reliable and trustworthy supplier.

    You may even have a production line if ordered in good numbers.
     
  5. TaimiKhan

    TaimiKhan SENIOR MODERATOR

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    Not just AIM-120s, the AIM-9s, the thousands of 2,000 & smaller pound bombs, JDAMS as well as Laser Guidance Kits, they all are not gonna be used against Talibans.
     
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  6. desiman

    desiman SENIOR MEMBER

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    And this intentions are the ones that India has been calling out against. Getting all these ammunitions for free or either at a very low cost using the so called WOT as an excuse is something that will bite Pakistan in the long run. Your only forcing India to modernize even quicker and widen the GAP. India has always known Pakistan real intention in regards to asking for every weapon in the US inventory. US is playing a double game here forcing India to acquire even better arms to keep the huge gap present. Its obvious that this WOT is very beneficial to the government and the army and they would like for this to go on for a long time. The people are the ones suffering but the voice of the people has never managed to rise over the voice of the armed forces in Pakistan till now. The armed forces have managed to get their budgets increased and continue to press on getting sophisticated tech like the drones from US which have no real need other than to counter India. I hope the US puts more conditions on the arms being supplied to Pakistan as its obvious that they are not being used for what they are being given for.
     
  7. TaimiKhan

    TaimiKhan SENIOR MODERATOR

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    J-10s engine is not finalized, Russian engine, huge problem in acquiring such advanced russian engine, hope you guys remember what was the reaction on the RD-93 engine.

    For F-16s, we have been operating them for more then 25 years, experienced pilots, ground staff, tactics, plus points & weaknesses, training stuff, maintenance infrastructure etc etc.

    PAF got interested in J-10 way back when F-16 were being ordered, one of the reason F-16s order was reduced to 18 instead of 36, as PAF had found a future variant of its advanced fighter jet, but it was being developed and had potential, thus PAF committed for a much advanced variant in which it will also contribute and make something tailored to its own need.

    But as J-10 project had time to mature, something in the mean time had to be done to fill the gap, thus F-16s were ordered and procured.

    Once J-10 matures, then it will fill the gap for front line fighter.
     
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  8. TaimiKhan

    TaimiKhan SENIOR MODERATOR

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    I have no idea why Indians have to utter this rubbish every where. It seems can't digest anything even tiny about Pakistan, well its understandable and shows in the attitude from India.

    Do provide a source which says it was in aid or it was given at reduced cost, becoz if that had been the case, then Pakistan would have gone for whole 36 F-16s rather then reducing the order to 18 F-16s after excusing to be having no money, which was to be diverted for the earth quake relief. As if it had been aid or at reduced cost, PAF would have exercised the whole 36 option.

    And India upgrading due to Pakitan, are you in your senses ??? What are 18 F-16s gonna do to the 100+ MKIs or the S-300 missiles India has. Do these 18 F-16s harm India more then what India can do harm with its advanced fleet of MKIs, M2Ks, Mig-29s and God knows what not.

    India ordered MKIs in 2000, got its first one in 2002 & the local one in 2004, MKIs ordered 5 years before Pakistan even ordered F-16s, 8 years later since India inducted its first MKI, Pakitan has gotten its first F-16s, so who in hell is reducing the gap created by the induction of high tech aircraft in this region, India with its MKIs since 2002 or Pakistan with its just 18 F-16s 8 years later in 2010. You guys seriously need to have some thinking logic.

    In last one decade since WoT started, Pakistan has hardly inducted any state of the art fighter jet except for these 3 F-16s and 15-16 JF-17s, 18-20 fighters compared to the 120+ MKIs, Mig-29Ks, and you come here with your this BS that Pakistan is widening the gap by using this WoT, are you guys in your right state of senses or what ???

    US drones ?? Where are they ?? 12 Shadow drone being given not on our request rather being shoved our throats and you deem them a threat, while you guy have been using Israeli drones since 2000 or earlier, one of which we shot in 2001. Have you seen the size of a Shadow drone ?? 12 in total and it will be a problem for India ??

    We are making better drones ourselves compared to Shadow and you say thee 12 drones are gonna be a threat to India.

    By the way, US is not arming India to counter Pakistan or vice vera, rather India is being prepared for the next cold war against China, as they need someone to stand up to China, so whatever they are selling you are not for Pakistan, but for China, for 18 F-16s, they are not foolish enough to sell you in hundreds much superior aircraft, rather they are selling so that they make money and you people have something to counter China. The other advanced weaponry is not for Pakistan, rather for China, as Globe Masters are not gonna be needed for Pakistan, MKIs are more then enough to take care of Pakistan and the 18 only high tech F-16s, the MRCA are for China, not Pakistan, similarly the naval platforms on the menu as well as other equipment. They are milking India due to China factor, not Pakistan factor. And we don't have any intentions with just 18 F-16s, intentions are of the one who is superior in quality as well as numbers, and we are not the ones with these both.

    And desiman i did had respect for you, but if you or any of the Indian member from today came up with this aid thing, you people would be off the forum for good, as enough with this rubbish diarrhea.
     
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  9. WAQAS119

    WAQAS119 SENIOR MEMBER

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    @Desiman:

    [​IMG]

    Oh no yet another indian delusional brain fart!!!!
    Your bad intention are clear in your post.

    Before inflaming and talking non-sense, do make yourself aware of basic facts that the aircraft have been purchased from the United States for $1.4 billion..
    DAWN.COM | Front Page | F-16s can be used against any adversary: PAF chief
    As first part of your post is debunked thus their is no credibility of next part.
    As far as your 'biting Pakistan' statement is concerned, their is nothing new for us from an indian... As delusional as always!!

    You guys claim that indian expansion of military is not intended towards Pakistan but China and other motive ( to become bully boy Asia) but now you are claiming that India is modernizing its equipment as an answer to Pakistani equipment!!!!
    Both of these excuses are totally opposite thus clarifies whole debate.
    And which gap you are talking about?? :mps:

    And if their is a gap then it surly makes sense for Pakistan to attain maximum possible defence capability to protect itself from hostile neighbour!!!!!!

    So what???
    what is the intention behind indian defence procurement? If it is not Pakistan then why you are spouting that indian will procure further to widen the gap?


    :rofl::rofl: This is simply hilarious!!!!!!
    no comments...:rofl:

    Who told you that WOT is beneficial??? We lost more than we gained but yes we will want US to stay in Afghanistan further so that all the garbage is totally cleaned.... Do you want to see more terrorist emerging from that part of the world??

    This is an obvious!! Even dumb can easily understand that to participate in WOT we need money...

    :blink:
    Then why the hell CIA is operating drones against Taliban??
    may be they know that these terrorists are indians trained....lol

    They are not fool --- why would US will put such conditions on F-16 after selling it to us if it was clear from the beginning that Pakistan is going to use it to defend itself from growing Indian threat.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2010
  10. desiman

    desiman SENIOR MEMBER

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    Taimi i have great respect for you and your post too, which i have told you many times, but if voicing my opinion in a civilized manner is considered wrong on here, then please ban me as i have no intention is not voicing my opinion as that is what forum's are for.


    Now onto the points, i agree with you and disagree with you.

    Where I agree with you is the fact that India's modernization is mainly due to China but Pakistan is still a factor. I am surprised that your saying that Pakistan has not inducted any state of the arm equipment in the past decade. From jamming pods, to laser guided bombs, to JDAMS to artillery the list is quite long. Such procurement has speed up since the WOT has started and yes Pakistan has been getting a preferred price on these. I work in this industry so i know how much they cost. Not only that but many steps in the normal procurement process have been skipped by the US to allow Pakistan to get these arms quicker. Pakistan has been asking for more potent drone tech in the past months with request for even the predetor been made. The recent article on PDF about Pakistan asking the US to speed up drone tech transfer is a testament to that fact. You are only quoting the big stuff such as aircraft when you say Pakistan has not got any state of the art equipment but totally forgetting all the ammunitions, guns, bombs, etc etc that Pakistan has acquired in the past 10 years or so. I dont want to get into an argument with you on this but you have your point of view and i have mine, you look out for Pakistan and I look out for India.
     
  11. desiman

    desiman SENIOR MEMBER

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    lol waqas ill reply to ur post once im done tussling with taimi lol
     
  12. Avatar

    Avatar FULL MEMBER

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    One thing I do not understand is how much difference can 18 new F-16's make ?
    IAF already has more than enough force to counter PAF in conventional warfare. We need to discuss things frankly and avoid the drama. Everyone knows that ALL of Pakistan's advanced weapon systems are "India centric".
    It would be insensible to assume Pakistan will ever spend so many resources of their own to counter Taliban.
     
  13. WAQAS119

    WAQAS119 SENIOR MEMBER

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    Why not fight two front war and follow the foot steps of General Deepak Kapoor!!!!!!
     
  14. desiman

    desiman SENIOR MEMBER

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    lol sorry im not general Kapoor, wish i could be though :P
     
  15. TaimiKhan

    TaimiKhan SENIOR MODERATOR

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    Which jamming pods have we got ?? I don't recall any from the US or anywhere else.

    JDAMS & Laser guided bombs as said have been inducted and are being inducted, and that is for India, and we had laser guided bomb way back since the 80s, watch PAF old videos you will see F-16s being equipped with them, JDAMS have just started to come in reason being Indian massive military and air force can not be countered with what we have, so we need such stuff, and even if US had not supplied, we would have bought from the Chinese, as now they are also making such stuff, and for the delivery of these bombs, aircraft would be needed, and if India counters these aircraft, then no use of such weapons.

    115 artillery guns, what are these 115 artillery guns with 30Km range gonna make a difference compared to the Indian army might. India is afraid of just 115 artillery guns ??? That is what you are telling me.

    Asking drone tech is something and giving it something else, there is a difference. And asking US for drone tech is just for local public consumption, we are making our own now and as per latest jane's report, Gen Kiyani was shown a live demo of a armed UAV firing exercise when he visited China recently, and PAC is already testing its own armed UAV, so asking from US is a face saving show.

    And as for your reduced cost theory, sorry buddy, what you post, i can't believe after having read it, a source would be better.

    From the cost of the deal for F-16s, there is nothing which can suggest it was on reduced pricing.

    So plz back it up with source.

    And do come up with the list of the equipment and its quantity which in your logic is a threat to India, as i would love to debate on it and see what is that India does not have in numbers a well as in quality compared to us. Would be waiting for such a list.