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Export bids for JF-17 Thunder Multirole Lightweight Fighter Aircraft

Beast

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what makes you so sure it's only a claim?

I speak the language and I follow Iraqi military forums, trust me, Iraqis don't want JF-17s at all.

recently they acquire French air defense radars and they're eyeing French Caesar artillery and rafales.
Mark this post and I think you will eat back your words. I have seen many so called bragging about knowing more but end up badly.

The typically mentality having something expensive means good. Expensive do not means it's better for maintenance, works. better or for the long run. A very typical fanboy expression display.
 

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

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Proud Nigerian Thunder Riders with their Instructor from PAF. After successfully completing the warranty period of its JF-17s, NAF is highly satisfied with the jets and after sales maintenance support provided by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex.
1669977353364.png
 

Horse_Rider

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Hi,

I agree with you---but when the timing is right in a timely manner---people buy from bad sales people as well---.

They are actually not even looking at the sales people---sales people are just a conduit to get the product they want---.


It is like selling Hondas and toyotas in the 70's---80's---90's---2000's.

Some of the worst salespeople I saw at hondas and toyotas out doing superstars at ford and dodge and chevy---.

It is all about the timeing.

But do you want a "forced buyer" who has some limitation and has no option other than the JF-17? You need sharp salesman for mass sales to occur. Your example of Honda and Toyotas is interesting. These are the most reliable cars. In today's fighter world, that would mean F-16 and Rafale. Is JFT a Honda or Toyota? I believe the JFT is late 90's Hyundai Elantra, capable but doesn't have the solid history of reliability behind it. So people aren't sure yet, that's where good salesmen come to play. They can also create awareness and mass sell it.

PAF would have lost the deal, even if they had the dual, triple or quadruple seater.

Firstly Running a business, and closing deals is NOT what uniformed officers are trained to do, or should be indulging in,
Secondly, Pakistan's foreign policy ( office ) can't do zilch to support the sales initiative.

A good sales team with a bad product will always trump over a bad sales team with an excellent product.

This post is worth millions of rupees. A lot of wisdom. I can't yet, but I'd have given a positive rating here.

Iraq is not interested in acquiring JF-17 from the beginning, Iraqi air force is training with French air force and they want French rafales.

F-16-Irak-Rafale-France-exercice-sujet-1_AdlAE-e1654091989634.jpeg

French package is good and their commission back to the buyers is even more attractive :enjoy:
 
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CivilianSupremacy

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Your example of Honda and Toyotas is interesting. These are the most reliable cars. In today's fighter world, that would mean F-16 and Rafale. Is JFT a Honda or Toyota? I believe the JFT is late 90's Hyundai Elantra, capable but doesn't have the solid history of reliability behind it. So people aren't sure yet, that's where good salesmen come to play. They can also create awareness and mass sell it.

Actually wrong examples to put things in perspective. You have to give example of the object which can be quantified as well. No one buys 5 Honda instead of one BMW. You most likely need a single car, so it would be either a BMW or a Honda. So definitely BMW would look better. JFT's advantage is low cost and can be procured in numbers. So essentially you can field 3 or more JFTs in the same cost as you can field 1 Western aircraft and that means you can absorb attrition as well. However, I agree CATIC/PAC definitely need better marketing approach. But selling fighter planes requires more stronger political / diplomatic efforts then anything else.
 

Horse_Rider

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Actually wrong examples to put things in perspective. You have to give example of the object which can be quantified as well. No one buys 5 Honda instead of one BMW. You most likely need a single car, so it would be either a BMW or a Honda. So definitely BMW would look better. JFT's advantage is low cost and can be procured in numbers. So essentially you can field 3 or more JFTs in the same cost as you can field 1 Western aircraft and that means you can absorb attrition as well. However, I agree CATIC/PAC definitely need better marketing approach. But selling fighter planes requires more stronger political / diplomatic efforts then anything else.

You went off rail and the examples don't make sense. Let's stick to @MastanKhan analogy of Honda and Toyota. He knows what he was implying and I knew how to interlink JFT into his analogy by using late 90's Hyundai.

BMW is a specialized vehicle. Honda and BMW have no comparison whatsoever. BMW is compared only with Mercedes (and lately with a couple of higher capacity Lexus models and Maserati's). A traditional capability based Western competitor have always been Honda vs. Toyota, capability, price points and reliability, all angles covered.
 

MastanKhan

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But do you want a "forced buyer" who has some limitation and has no option other than the JF-17? You need sharp salesman for mass sales to occur. Your example of Honda and Toyotas is interesting. These are the most reliable cars. In today's fighter world, that would mean F-16 and Rafale. Is JFT a Honda or Toyota? I believe the JFT is late 90's Hyundai Elantra, capable but doesn't have the solid history of reliability behind it. So people aren't sure yet, that's where good salesmen come to play. They can also create awareness and mass sell it.



This post is worth millions of rupees. A lot of wisdom. I can't yet, but I'd have given a positive rating here.



French package is good and their commission back to the buyers is even more attractive :enjoy:
Hi,

Weapons world is a very deceiving world---. When the capabilities are similar---how knowledgeable and capable the operator is in knowing his machine and more so in knowing the enemy's machine---makes the difference.

BMW is a terrible car to own---. Extremely unreliable---extremely expensive---fun to drive---but NO UTILITY---.

That is what Australia is complaining about their F-35's---.

While the news is no doubt disappointing I commend the Argentinians for putting the people first during these trying economic times.

Hi,

That is what I thought this morning---. Argentine won't go for the JF17---. Too much pressure from the US---.

US will not allow pakistan any major JF17 sale in its area of influence---.
 
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aviator_fan

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Proud Nigerian Thunder Riders with their Instructor from PAF. After successfully completing the warranty period of its JF-17s, NAF is highly satisfied with the jets and after sales maintenance support provided by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex.
View attachment 902239
With Oil at $85 a barrel, this oil producing country still can't scrap enough money to buy a whole squadron?
 

MastanKhan

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But do you want a "forced buyer" who has some limitation and has no option other than the JF-17? You need sharp salesman for mass sales to occur. Your example of Honda and Toyotas is interesting. These are the most reliable cars. In today's fighter world, that would mean F-16 and Rafale. Is JFT a Honda or Toyota? I believe the JFT is late 90's Hyundai Elantra, capable but doesn't have the solid history of reliability behind it. So people aren't sure yet, that's where good salesmen come to play. They can also create awareness and mass sell it.



This post is worth millions of rupees. A lot of wisdom. I can't yet, but I'd have given a positive rating here.



French package is good and their commission back to the buyers is even more attractive :enjoy:
Hi,

I think you got carried away a bit---. The JFT is as good as any other aircraft in its class---.

Some of its weapons are better than most and other weapons are of equal ability than the enemy's---.

Its conventional radar is as good as any other aircraft in its class---. Its upcoming aesa radar is the most advanced in the category as well as more advanced than some medium category aircraft---.

The BVR is the most advanced in the world---and the off bore sight missile is no less capable & I have not even mentioned the AShM's or ASM's---.

The aircraft is extremely reliable---it startup and spool up time is very fast and very predictable---so I don't understand how would one compare it with a 90's hyundau Elantra to a 21st century honda accord---.
So---please kindly share how you came to that conclusion---.
 

Horse_Rider

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Hi,

I think you got carried away a bit---. The JFT is as good as any other aircraft in its class---.

Some of its weapons are better than most and other weapons are of equal ability than the enemy's---.

Its conventional radar is as good as any other aircraft in its class---. Its upcoming aesa radar is the most advanced in the category as well as more advanced than some medium category aircraft---.

The BVR is the most advanced in the world---and the off bore sight missile is no less capable & I have not even mentioned the AShM's or ASM's---.

The aircraft is extremely reliable---it startup and spool up time is very fast and very predictable---so I don't understand how would one compare it with a 90's hyundau Elantra to a 21st century honda accord---.
So---please kindly share how you came to that conclusion---.

You had already responded to this post :). But on the above, I thought out of everyone, you'd understand the Elantra vs. Honda and Toyota comparison due to your experience with cars. But I guess I'll re-explain.

Elantrai is a great car, reliable, offers higher end features that cost more with Toyota and Honda and was priced cheap and I believe it's coming on competitive terms price wise with Honda and Toyota now as the sales of Hyundai and Kiya have increased ten fold across the globe. What people didn't know was that the Korean engineering is really a spin off of the Japanese engineering. So at the end of the day, you are really buying a Japanese car with "Made In Korea", so same reliability is expected. That' JFT for you!

But back around 1995-2000, when you'd tell someone to buy an Elantra, people would either raise eye brows or would tell you it may not be a reliable car and definitely not a well known brand (Korean). But it's the sales effort that overtime not only sold it to masses and setup global presence and delivery, the sales effort also showcased it comparable to Honda and Toyota. That is what is needed for the JFT! I hope now it's clear. I was never portraying our JFT as an inferior platform.

While I say this, I am a big proponent of adapting the J-10CP in larger numbers and with a local assembly line if possible and stopping with JFT post block III. JFT airframe has limitations, both space wise and performance wise (it's an 8G airframe vs. F-16 / J-10C, the main competition being 9+G's, it matters in close fights, TWR is another issue as well as limited EW and defensive loadout for Chaffs / Flares, and Range being a critical one obviously). It did the magic it was supposed to do, established our industry and brought us leaps forward. But if the J-10C (a heavier class) is available for a few million more, it's worth getting and standardizing in PAF in numbers and for the future. J-10C airframe offers us everything now and in the future.
 

MastanKhan

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While I say this, I am a big proponent of adapting the J-10CP in larger numbers and with a local assembly line if possible and stopping with JFT post block III. JFT airframe has limitations, both space wise and performance wise (it's an 8G airframe vs. F-16 / J-10C, the main competition being 9+G's, it matters in close fights, TWR is another issue as well as limited EW and defensive loadout for Chaffs / Flares, and Range being a critical one obviously). It did the magic it was supposed to do, established our industry and brought us leaps forward. But if the J-10C (a heavier class) is available for a few million more, it's worth getting and standardizing in PAF in numbers and for the future. J-10C airframe offers us everything now and in the future.
Hi,

JFT airframe has no limitations persay---. It is designed for the utility and uses its space well for the purpose it was designed for---.

Son---8 / 9 g are for clean configuration----loaded aircraft will barely touch 6 /7 g's---. Even a loaded F15 could barely touch 5 / 5.5 g's.

There is no issue with thrust to weight ratio either---.

This aircraft has a great spool up time---. It gets in the air and to 5000 feet faster than many other aircraft to get to a position of strength---. Its engine is very responsive when asked for power.

Its BVR is very capable and now the off bore sight missile as well---.

So---is the AK-47 less deadly than the AR-15 or the CZ Bren---or the Sig---.
 

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