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Export bids for JF-17 Thunder Multirole Lightweight Fighter Aircraft

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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You might want to read about the reality of Mig-35 and AESA radar

There is a huge difference between promoting things for export and actually having it in production and on aircraft. Russians are very good at showing prototypes on air shows, but not very good at delivering it into production. For AESA radar, they simply haven't been able to get the cost of producing T/R modules down due to their backward electronics industry.

What China has is a relatively modern electronics industry along with a lot of investment in military radar. That started with AESA radar on KJ-2000 and Type 052C over 15 years ago. With continued investment and improving domestic industry, they have been able to put AESA radar on all their recent aircraft since 2015. That's really only behind America and France. EFT still does not have AESA radar. Just think about that. JF-17 will get AESA radars before EFT.

Again, look at what's in production rather than what's promoted in air shows. Huge difference. Don't fall for capabilities that sales teams are promising to be ready in a couple of years
I think the J-10CE and JF-17 Block-3 are now the de-facto, go-to options for ITAR-free modern fighters. In fact, not only are the fighters themselves filled to the rim with current tech (e.g., AESA radars, ECM, HMD, etc), but China also invested in the munitions stack. So, the end-user has a huge variety of munitions to choose from without worrying about special integration or qualification needs (e.g. PL-15E, PL-10E, SD-10, PL-5EII, YJ-9E, C-802A, HD-1A, GB500, LD-10, etc, etc). There'll be exceptions, like Pakistan's need to integrate Ra'ad II ALCM, but that's a one-off strategic asset; but in general, there's probably an analogous Chinese option for most Western munition solutions.

IMO we'll probably see an upswell of J-10CE and JF-17B3 purchases, especially from Algeria, Egypt, a couple of Central Asian countries, etc.

One problem I find with how people assess Chinese tech is that they look at it from the "East vs West" lenses. They basically use what they know about the Soviets and Russia, and then superimpose that on China. This is a totally incorrect way to look at China. In reality, China's industrial engine is more patterned along Western lines (due to the heavy cross-trade), but with a better handle on supply-chain management, cost control, and horizontal integration. Ironically, the more apt comparison of China could be WW2-era USA in the sense that both used their expertise in non-defense areas (especially consumer) to undertake defense R&D and production at a more efficient level.

The Pakistani way is more like the Soviet way -- @JamD gets it.
 
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Beast

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I think the J-10CE and JF-17 Block-3 are now the de-facto, go-to options for ITAR-free modern fighters. In fact, not only are the fighters themselves filled to the rim with current tech (e.g., AESA radars, ECM, HMD, etc), but China also invested in the munitions stack. So, the end-user has a huge variety of munitions to choose from without worrying about special integration or qualification needs (e.g. PL-15E, PL-10E, SD-10, PL-5EII, YJ-9E, C-802A, HD-1A, GB500, LD-10, etc, etc). There'll be exceptions, like Pakistan's need to integrate Ra'ad II ALCM, but that's a one-off strategic asset; but in general, there's probably an analogous Chinese option for most Western munition solutions.

IMO we'll probably see an upswell of J-10CE and JF-17B3 purchases, especially from Algeria, Egypt, a couple of Central Asian countries, etc.

One problem I find with how people assess Chinese tech is that they look at it from the "East vs West" lenses. They basically use what they know about the Soviets and Russia, and then superimpose that on China. This is a totally incorrect way to look at China. In reality, China's industrial engine is more patterned along Western lines (due to the heavy cross-trade), but with a better handle on supply-chain management, cost control, and horizontal integration. Ironically, the more apt comparison of China could be WW2-era USA in the sense that both used their expertise in non-defense areas (especially consumer) to undertake defense R&D and production at a more efficient level.

The Pakistani way is more like the Soviet way -- @JamD gets it.
Many former still think China is a poor country that uses bull lock cart to pull goods. When I told one China managed to put a working rover on Mars, he even laugh at me and even willing bet with his life if I can prove him wrong.

Luckily , I didnt want to take his life after him losing his bet but instead of a free drink. That is the ignorant level of some people. I do know the evil of western media keep badmouth China technology but the world is keep ever changing. Western countries can never always be on top. Some one will definitely take over them from some point.
 

Bleek

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Many former still think China is a poor country that uses bull lock cart to pull goods. When I told one China managed to put a working rover on Mars, he even laugh at me and even willing bet with his life if I can prove him wrong.

Luckily , I didnt want to take his life after him losing his bet but instead of a free drink. That is the ignorant level of some people. I do know the evil of western media keep badmouth China technology but the world is keep ever changing. Western countries can never always be on top. Some one will definitely take over them from some point.
Western technology and equipment has a very good track record and representation in battle, hence it's preferred. With J-10C and JF-17 in the PAF, it only takes one or two more 2019 incidents to destroy the "China technology bad" narrative. After that there'll be no grounds to jump on the bandwagon.
 

MastanKhan

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Western technology and equipment has a very good track record and representation in battle, hence it's preferred. With J-10C and JF-17 in the PAF, it only takes one or two more 2019 incidents to destroy the "China technology bad" narrative. After that there'll be no grounds to jump on the bandwagon.

Hi,

Could you please expand on that. Thank you.
 

Beast

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Western technology and equipment has a very good track record and representation in battle, hence it's preferred. With J-10C and JF-17 in the PAF, it only takes one or two more 2019 incidents to destroy the "China technology bad" narrative. After that there'll be no grounds to jump on the bandwagon.
I dont think so, the Mig-15, Mig-19 and Mig-21 in fact has good record against western aircrafts. In many cases, they gain the upper hand. It is only the last 20-30 years, with rise of electronic and heavy emphasize on network, western aircraft started to edge over the Russia one. Not to mention combat aircraft selling has a big factor of political and kickbacks.
 

Bleek

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Hi,

Could you please expand on that. Thank you.
Well, the general narrative in the west about Chinese equipment is low quality, copy and underperforming, almost like a paper tiger. And that goes the same for military equipment.

So one or two more 2019-like incidents in which Chinese aircraft can successfully outperform western aircraft can destroy this narrative. J10C taking out a Rafale would be like icing on the cake if it is achieved, and there wouldn't be any grounds to shit on Chinese tech.
 

siegecrossbow

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Well, the general narrative in the west about Chinese equipment is low quality, copy and underperforming, almost like a paper tiger. And that goes the same for military equipment.

So one or two more 2019-like incidents in which Chinese aircraft can successfully outperform western aircraft can destroy this narrative. J10C taking out a Rafale would be like icing on the cake if it is achieved, and there wouldn't be any grounds to shit on Chinese tech.

They'll blame Indian pilots.
 

Bleek

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I dont think so, the Mig-15, Mig-19 and Mig-21 in fact has good record against western aircrafts. In many cases, they gain the upper hand. It is only the last 20-30 years, with rise of electronic and heavy emphasize on network, western aircraft started to edge over the Russia one. Not to mention combat aircraft selling has a big factor of political and kickbacks.
I meant in comparison to indigenous Chinese tech

They'll blame Indian pilots.
Well at least this time you'll have the Indians ruthlessly defending you so their pilot's image isn't ruined, but you're probably correct
 

Beast

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I meant in comparison to indigenous Chinese tech


Well at least this time you'll have the Indians ruthlessly defending you so their pilot's image isn't ruined, but you're probably correct
Actually, the only time Chinese made aircraft send to battle ended with good record. Indo-Pakistan war 1971, J-6 take out even Mig-21. Vietnam war of Chinese made J-6 vs F-4 phantom.
 

MastanKhan

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Well, the general narrative in the west about Chinese equipment is low quality, copy and underperforming, almost like a paper tiger. And that goes the same for military equipment.

So one or two more 2019-like incidents in which Chinese aircraft can successfully outperform western aircraft can destroy this narrative. J10C taking out a Rafale would be like icing on the cake if it is achieved, and there wouldn't be any grounds to shit on Chinese tech.

Hi,

Thank you young man for a wishful thinking.

My innocent child---weapons capabilities are not determined just by a minor skirmish.

They are determined by constant usage during a 10-20-30--60-90 day continuous combat---day and night---.
 

Bleek

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Hi,

Thank you young man for a wishful thinking.

My innocent child---weapons capabilities are not determined just by a minor skirmish.

They are determined by constant usage during a 10-20-30--60-90 day continuous combat---day and night---.
A couple skirmishes will be enough to destroy the narrative of them being cheap underperforming copies, not to assert them as the best thing to grace the Earth

Just enough so they are not easily written off as useless
 

MastanKhan

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A couple skirmishes will be enough to destroy the narrative of them being cheap underperforming copies, not to assert them as the best thing to grace the Earth

Just enough so they are not easily written off as useless

Hi,

As I guessed---atypical pakistani kid---with no sense at all.
 

mili

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Well, the general narrative in the west about Chinese equipment is low quality, copy and underperforming, almost like a paper tiger. And that goes the same for military equipment.

So one or two more 2019-like incidents in which Chinese aircraft can successfully outperform western aircraft can destroy this narrative. J10C taking out a Rafale would be like icing on the cake if it is achieved, and there wouldn't be any grounds to shit on Chinese tech.
Real air wars are best but fortunately rare, however there are already many open avenues to gauge Chinese vs western jets namely the East & South China Seas where intense air contests have been ongoing for years.
I always get a good laugh when I now see reports of usaf sending their f22 to GUam or jp as if it's some trump card.
They already started going to Okinawa years ago, even before time of J20, & China's advantage in the air over ECS has only grown since then.
So for those who are willing to wake up, there are already many indications of China vs western jet performance.
 

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