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Export bids for JF-17 Thunder Multirole Lightweight Fighter Aircraft

TNT

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Actually, we got the price issue from Pakistani sources. The Italian AESA apparently had better range and reliability than the KLJ-7A, but price made a huge impact, as at that time of procurement Pakistan was going through a number of difficult financial situations.

While there is always the issue of getting a watered down version, what Italy was offering Pakistan was clearly superior to the Chinese offer in practically every way, except price.

Sometimes, the simplest answer is the easiest; Pakistan simply couldn't afford the Italian offer.

Around that time, Pakistan was also going through a rifle replacement competition (one of the rifles offered was Italian), which has also since been shelved, as Pakistan's economic situation is still quite poor.

This is correct. It gives militaries experience against hardware that they're likely to face in the real world. The US buys second hand Russian equipment for a reason.
Can u provide a rough comparison of prices between the two? I doubt a country would dump a good option for few million. Also weapons integration is another issue, would chinese pl10 and pl15 be allowed to integrate with italian AESA? Furthermore there is always that hanging sword of deal being cancelled at the very last moment. In any case PAF professionals are in best position to take decisions and I'm sure they took the best decision in given circumstances. My point in general, we should not get our hopes high for western equipment, as the geopolitical situation evolves, its going to get even more difficult.
 

That Guy

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Can u provide a rough comparison of prices between the two? I doubt a country would dump a good option for few million. Also weapons integration is another issue, would chinese pl10 and pl15 be allowed to integrate with italian AESA? Furthermore there is always that hanging sword of deal being cancelled at the very last moment. In any case PAF professionals are in best position to take decisions and I'm sure they took the best decision in given circumstances. My point in general, we should not get our hopes high for western equipment, as the geopolitical situation evolves, its going to get even more difficult.
You'd have to ask @Bilal Khan (Quwa) for the details. I'm pretty much just repeating what little knowledge I have on the subject.

I should note however, a few million multiplied by a few hundred fighters, which were meant to be cost effective, the price can add up quite quickly. This is especially a problem for a nation like Pakistan which has struggled to keep its economy afloat for the last 13 years.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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For the PAF the issue wasn't the price of the Vixen 1000E or Grifo-E, but the fact that we didn't have a compatible LRAAM. Neither the Chinese or the Italians/British were going to open up their radar and AAM stacks to make our existing SD-10s (or next longer ranged AAMs) work from that radar. Likewise, our ties with France and the US aren't at a point where we could get the Meteor or the AMRAAM for the JF-17.

The story may have been different if we had developed our LRAAM. Heck, I even wrote about the option of actually making one with the South Africans in 2016 (i.e., 5 years ago).


The bigger issue isn't even that we didn't make our own AAM, but that we never invested enough in domestic R&D to actually build the inputs we'd need to readily make an AAM (or SAM). However, if we invest in these areas properly, then I don't think we'd even need to worry about Leonardo radars; we'd potentially have our own instead.

Unfortunately, even if we start now, we'll still need to wait 15-20 years before we get serviceable solutions. Like India, we will probably go through failure and reworks, but it's a necessary grind in order to get to the right end outcome. We should start now, but just remember, we'll still rely on China or whoever else in the interim.
 

Hakikat ve Hikmet

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For the PAF the issue wasn't the price of the Vixen 1000E or Grifo-E, but the fact that we didn't have a compatible LRAAM. Neither the Chinese or the Italians/British were going to open up their radar and AAM stacks to make our existing SD-10s (or next longer ranged AAMs) work from that radar. Likewise, our ties with France and the US aren't at a point where we could get the Meteor or the AMRAAM for the JF-17.

The story may have been different if we had developed our LRAAM. Heck, I even wrote about the option of actually making one with the South Africans in 2016 (i.e., 5 years ago).


The bigger issue isn't even that we didn't make our own AAM, but that we never invested enough in domestic R&D to actually build the inputs we'd need to readily make an AAM (or SAM). However, if we invest in these areas properly, then I don't think we'd even need to worry about Leonardo radars; we'd potentially have our own instead.

Unfortunately, even if we start now, we'll still need to wait 15-20 years before we get serviceable solutions. Like India, we will probably go through failure and reworks, but it's a necessary grind in order to get to the right end outcome. We should start now, but just remember, we'll still rely on China or whoever else in the interim.
Pak can tie up with Turkey for the AESA radars and Goktu' (classical) and Gokhan (ramjet-based) AAM projects...
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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Pak can tie up with Turkey for the AESA radars and Goktu' (classical) and Gokhan (ramjet-based) AAM projects...
Perhaps, but it doesn't change the actual problem. We (in Pakistan) don't know much about this stuff at an engineering or design level. We never built the capacity or undertook R&D. Even now, we could potentially commission the South Africans to make something, but it won't stand in for indigenous R&D.
 

Hakikat ve Hikmet

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Perhaps, but it doesn't change the actual problem. We (in Pakistan) don't know much about this stuff at an engineering or design level. We never built the capacity or undertook R&D. Even now, we could potentially commission the South Africans to make something, but it won't stand in for indigenous R&D.
Pak can always start at some point. Since Turkey has almost an indigenous ecosystem for EW systems used in land, air and sea, Pak can ask for a reference system to develop her own at least at the application level by modifications. In the meantime, dedicated R&D teams can be formed with the Turkish counterparts to study relevant topics like III-V devices, optoelectronics, microwaves, antennas, hardware, software, systems etc...
 

Akh1112

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