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Export bids for JF-17 Thunder Multirole Lightweight Fighter Aircraft

Dark1

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Again i agree with respected members PAF know how to fly a plan but commercially they are very poor .Indians on the other hand having unfinished product is already doing prospecting with potential clients .Its not a product its a positioning of the product .What a shame on export related strategy
Tejas has no customers except for IAF. With the limited production capacity, doubtful that India will seriously target a export market for the next 3 to 5 years.
 

GriffinsRule

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Tejas has no customers except for IAF. With the limited production capacity, doubtful that India will seriously target a export market for the next 3 to 5 years.
There is no export market for Tejas. The current jet as we know if wont even be produced past the first 80...that is once their govt actually funds the additional numbers.
There is no Tejas Mk2 for another 5 years at least so what are they going to market exactly? Its dead in the water.
Dont forget, at its price point, ~$60MM a pop, any country would be better off buying F-16s. After all, if the US approves sale of GE 404/414 engine to someone, they might as well sell them their own jets too.
 

volatile

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Tejas has no customers except for IAF. With the limited production capacity, doubtful that India will seriously target a export market for the next 3 to 5 years.
Sir before you run you walk .Its called prospecting .Im refering to no sales or good sales infact im refering to the process .In 2005 we had maiden flight by 2020 15 years down the line how many sales we did ? If your answer is not confident think again where we are wrong .By the way Indians did 350 Billion US$ exports and we do 20 Billion US$ so must be some thing different. If your argument is correct about Engines .Gripen enjoys good sales with same /US engine .In the end it is strategy
 

Dark1

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Sir before you run you walk .Its called prospecting .Im refering to no sales or good sales infact im refering to the process .In 2005 we had maiden flight by 2020 15 years down the line how many sales we did ? If your answer is not confident think again where we are wrong .By the way Indians did 350 Billion US$ exports and we do 20 Billion US$ so must be some thing different. If your argument is correct about Engines .Gripen enjoys good sales with same /US engine .In the end it is strategy
I am a Indian in India but practical. Defence exports were considered unethical by our previous peacenik governments , but the new government has no such qualms. Expertise has to be built up slowly in the private sector and then comes domestic orders and then comes export. The Indian government first has to support the local private sector with confirmed massive orders , then come export customers. Manufacturing is manufacturing, defence items dont require alien technology. Only focus .
 

Marker

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Sir before you run you walk .Its called prospecting .Im refering to no sales or good sales infact im refering to the process .In 2005 we had maiden flight by 2020 15 years down the line how many sales we did ? If your answer is not confident think again where we are wrong .By the way Indians did 350 Billion US$ exports and we do 20 Billion US$ so must be some thing different. If your argument is correct about Engines .Gripen enjoys good sales with same /US engine .In the end it is strategy
It is a general practice that a product you produce should have local demand. JF-17 was primarily produced to satisfy PAF requirement. After meeting the local demand JF-17 Block 2 were sold to 2 countries. Though quantity is not much but still we are selling it in international market.

Though Indians might have exported defense related equipment more than what Pakistan did, but we actually saved money by not buying weapon systems from foreign countries, instead meet the demand by locally producing and inducting 112 JF-17s in PAF.

Usually sale of a weapon system increases once it is successfully used against actual threat. Use of JF-17s during operation Swift Retort was a turning point. Many Air Forces showed interest in this aircraft. May be in near future we may see a bulk sale.
 

volatile

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It is a general practice that a product you produce should have local demand. JF-17 was primarily produced to satisfy PAF requirement. After meeting the local demand JF-17 Block 2 were sold to 2 countries. Though quantity is not much but still we are selling it in international market.

Though Indians might have exported defense related equipment more than what Pakistan did, but we actually saved money by not buying weapon systems from foreign countries, instead meet the demand by locally producing and inducting 112 JF-17s in PAF.

Usually sale of a weapon system increases once it is successfully used against actual threat. Use of JF-17s during operation Swift Retort was a turning point. Many Air Forces showed interest in this aircraft. May be in near future we may see a bulk sale.
My friend Im very old in this regard .JF17 was always designed as alternate to F7/A5/Mirages of PAF as well as other nations .There is a reason cash strapped Pakistan went for this project and Chinese company saw this huge potential .Rest is all talk no evidence to it .JF17 was intended for PLAAF but never got through the trail stage .So PAF was left alone .
 

Marker

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Why Western manufacturing firms are more successful than Eastern firms?

Why they can export more to other countries while Eastern firms struggling?

Because of fair competitive market. Western markets are very competitive but also generally fair. Their business laws are well defined and well implemented.

Whereas, Eastern markets do not practice fair competition, Here, politicians, corrupt bureaucrats and mafia lords rule and they control the market. Business laws do not exist.

Producers and suppliers in Western markets sell high quality products to gain customer satisfaction and loyalty.

Whereas Easter markets generally do not care about quality of product because producers and suppliers have monopoly or control over the market.

Since local consumption is of poor quality product in Eastern markets, these products do not have any demand in the International Market as these suppliers and producers do not control these markets.

International markets are very competitive and demand high customer satisfaction.

Products may be related to defense or civil, International market response is the same.

If Pakistan needs to increase export of its defense products, they should focus on customer satisfaction. Needs of customer should be identified and then exploit it to sell these products.

Timings and approach is very important in business.

Pakistan should also learn from competitors how they market and sell their products in the international market.
 

Beast

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Why Western manufacturing firms are more successful than Eastern firms?

Why they can export more to other countries while Eastern firms struggling?

Because of fair competitive market. Western markets are very competitive but also generally fair. Their business laws are well defined and well implemented.

Whereas, Eastern markets do not practice fair competition, Here, politicians, corrupt bureaucrats and mafia lords rule and they control the market. Business laws do not exist.

Producers and suppliers in Western markets sell high quality products to gain customer satisfaction and loyalty.

Whereas Easter markets generally do not care about quality of product because producers and suppliers have monopoly or control over the market.

Since local consumption is of poor quality product in Eastern markets, these products do not have any demand in the International Market as these suppliers and producers do not control these markets.

International markets are very competitive and demand high customer satisfaction.

Products may be related to defense or civil, International market response is the same.

If Pakistan needs to increase export of its defense products, they should focus on customer satisfaction. Needs of customer should be identified and then exploit it to sell these products.

Timings and approach is very important in business.

Pakistan should also learn from competitors how they market and sell their products in the international market.
That is pack of nonsense. China AVIC, Norinco, Polygon are some of the military defense contractor in top 10 ranking.


China is the only Asian country capable of offer full package system without much relies on other countries firm for critical sub system. SK has made great progress but still heavily rely General Dynamic for propulsion system and US mk 41 VLS for their export warship.
 

Marker

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That is pack of nonsense. China AVIC, Norinco, Polygon are some of the military defense contractor in top 10 ranking.


China is the only Asian country capable of offer full package system without much relies on other countries firm for critical sub system. SK has made great progress but still heavily rely General Dynamic for propulsion system and US mk 41 VLS for their export warship.
With due respect, I will again repeat that Chinese, Russian, Pakistani and Indian markets are either controlled by government - politicians and bureaucrats or mafia lords. Chinese market is not a free market, it is semi autonomous. More than 50% share almost in all market sectors belong to Chinese Government.

Therefore, element of serious and fair competition do not exist.

Take the example of defense and aviation sector. Various firms are dedicated to a particular kind of aviation system product. Redundancy is very rare. In short it suits China, But if China wants to compete in the International market, it should introduce fair competition in its defense and aviation sector.

Offering a product and actually selling it are two different things.
 

Beast

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With due respect, I will again repeat that Chinese, Russian, Pakistani and Indian markets are either controlled by government - politicians and bureaucrats or mafia lords. Chinese market is not a free market, it is semi autonomous. More than 50% share almost in all market sectors belong to Chinese Government.

Therefore, element of serious and fair competition do not exist.

Take the example of defense and aviation sector. Various firms are dedicated to a particular kind of aviation system product. Redundancy is very rare. In short it suits China, But if China wants to compete in the International market, it should introduce fair competition in its defense and aviation sector.

Offering a product and actually selling it are two different things.
That is not true! Take for example UCAV. There is the famous CH-5 series CASTIC competing with Wingloong II from chengdu. Price and spec are very transparent and may the best win the deal.

Even US, there is only one contractor left in fighter jet series which is Lockheed Martin and no other rival.
 

GriffinsRule

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Sir before you run you walk .Its called prospecting .Im refering to no sales or good sales infact im refering to the process .In 2005 we had maiden flight by 2020 15 years down the line how many sales we did ? If your answer is not confident think again where we are wrong .By the way Indians did 350 Billion US$ exports and we do 20 Billion US$ so must be some thing different. If your argument is correct about Engines .Gripen enjoys good sales with same /US engine .In the end it is strategy
Well a couple of points here. First, you can't expect JF-17 to have huge export success when it's the first fighter produced by Pakistan/Chinese collaboration. Most buyers would be vary and wait for it to be inducted, flown for a decade and see how it performed to feel comfortable enough to think about procurement. So sales could only happen once it proved it's worth with the PAF first. Add to that, can you see how many years did it take before established design houses like Saab and Dassault finally got export orders for the Gripen and Rafales?
Second, your figures for India and Pakistan are incorrect for this discussion. Can you compare their defense/military exports to Pakistans for a fair comparison.
And by all measures, Gripen is not an export success story.
 

Danish Moazzam

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No, a fact. Israeli jets fly and take pictures over KSA, without detection and interception.
If i have high resolution satellites that can take detailed pictures with impunity why will i even bother with sending the jets just to take photos?? So I disagree
 

volatile

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Well a couple of points here. First, you can't expect JF-17 to have huge export success when it's the first fighter produced by Pakistan/Chinese collaboration. Most buyers would be vary and wait for it to be inducted, flown for a decade and see how it performed to feel comfortable enough to think about procurement. So sales could only happen once it proved it's worth with the PAF first. Add to that, can you see how many years did it take before established design houses like Saab and Dassault finally got export orders for the Gripen and Rafales?
Second, your figures for India and Pakistan are incorrect for this discussion. Can you compare their defense/military exports to Pakistans for a fair comparison.
And by all measures, Gripen is not an export success story.
Again you are at fault of saying that it is not a export success or failure .It is determined by product offering and potential customer needs .e.g JF17 was designed to replace ageing F7/A5/Mirages not only for PAF but many nations . DId we replace our Mirages with JF1`7 ,Answer lies here we are offering Egypt the JF17 and buying second hand mirages from them .Irony Businesses are complex matter ,fighting is simpler
 

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