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Gomig-21

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In brief: an upgrade of 100 F-16s is equal to buying 100 Mig-35, only the latter has no strings attached and comes with the full weapons suites.. or let's say 65 SU-35 fully loaded..thanks god, the alternatives are very potent..
PS: Bro, it is not me who talked about past mistakes..
I wasn't referring to you, ma bro. I was replying to @HannibalBarca who said that. I know you don't buy into that notion as well. We are definitely in agreement on that.

Could a moderator please intervene before the thread gets derailed?
You noticed how I saw that coming in my commentary, right? lol. I even warned against doing it and it still happened LOL! Mesh momken. :lol:
 

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u noticed how I saw that coming in my commentary, right? lol. I even warned against doing it and it still happened LOL! Mesh momken. :lol:
That's why I never engage the sultan's harem. Before you know it, we'll have the entire haramlik defecating on this thread, the mud slinging will go on for pages if we let them. That's why I saw fit to call up the mods to keep things civilized here.
 

Gomig-21

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Interesting article regarding the Gowinds/Meko.

Naval Battle in Egypt: TKMS Near to Dethrone Naval Group
By Michel Cabirol | 03/09/2018, 6:56



Negotiations between Egypt and ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems are close to completion for a purchase of two Meko A200 corvettes. Naval Group is likely to be overtaken by its German rival.


According to concordant sources, ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS), aided by the French billionaire Iskandar Safa and very much supported by the German authorities , is close to blowing a contract for two corvettes in Egypt yet promised to Naval Group. Negotiations would currently focus on the equipment of the two Meko A200 corvettes and make good progress at the banking level. In France, on the other hand, pessimism dominated the chances of a new success for the sale of the last two Gowind 2500 to the Egyptian Navy. Naval Group had sold four in 2014. If 'Egypt adventure turned to Germany, it would indeed be a slap for France, which did not do what was necessary this summer to defend the interests tricolor.

Ironically, Cairo will launch on Thursday the first of three Gowind 2500 corvettes built locally by Alexandria Shipyard, the Egyptian military shipyard in Alexandria.
A ceremony that should not be attended by Egyptian President Abdel Fattah Al-Sissi or his new Minister of Defense, Mohamed Zaki. These absences, moreover, maintain French pessimism.

But why Meko?
The sale of the two Meko A200 (3,400 tons), if it ended, remains very intriguing. They are twice as expensive as the two Gowind 2500 (1 billion euros excluding armament, against 500 million for the two French corvettes). However, far from the two Meko sold in 2012 by TKMS to Algeria (2.1 billion). This purchase project also does not have "operational and logistical rationality since it adds a class of buildings to the Egyptian navy (training, MCO)," says one La Tribune.

In addition, it will not bring any added value at the diplomatic level to Egypt. Because if France supports Abdel Fattah Al-Sissi in a narrow way, Germany appears less reliable because of the fragile position of Angela Merkel in the German coalition and its cautious policy on arms exports that puts Egypt at the mercy of a German embargo similar to those in Turkey and Saudi Arabia. Finally, this project will have no impact for the Egyptian industry. The two German corvettes will be built in Kiel at German Naval Yards (with Israeli Sa'ar 6). Naval Group has built three corvettes in Alexandria.

For its part, France has proposed a homogeneous fleet to Egypt (1 frigate FREMM or another term, 6 Gowind 2500 and, finally, 2 GCP) which allowed the Egyptian Navy to rationalize its fleet made up of naval vessels. various foreign origins (Russian and German submarines, American patrol boats, Russian, French and South Korean corvettes, Russian and French frigates, French BPC ...). And she had proposed a local construction to accompany the country in the modernization of its construction site of Alexandria. Beyond that, France was planning to create a Gowind club in the region. After Egypt (4 copies + 2 in option) and the United Arab Emirates (2 being negotiated), France is targeting Saudi Arabia (5 units). The Gowind corvettes could provide for the security of the communication routes (Red Sea, Gulf,

Aster 15 on the Meko?
Will France agree to sell the Aster 15 system on a German platform? This weapon is reserved for French (Gowind, Fremm) or Italian (Qatari corvettes or FREMM, LPD sold to Algeria and Qatar) platforms. "This is an armament sensitive to the highly sought-after operational performances financed only by France and Italy," recalls La Tribune. In any case, the MBDA missile allegedly filed, according to our information, a request to the Interministerial Commission for the Study of Exports of Military Goods ( CIEEMG ). If this request is accepted, this decision would nullify a significant commercial advantage of Naval Group in favor of TKMS and Germany, whichsurface-to-air solution for the benefit of the Raytheon ESSM.

On the other hand, the Meko A200 would be equipped with the Exocet MM40 BIII missile (MBDA), which is already referenced on the four South African Meko A100s. Egyptians are also interested in the Umkhonto IIR short-range South-African surface-to-air missile manufactured by Denel and 35mm Rheinmetall guns. Moreover, Meko A200 could be equipped with the s ystem management battle ( CMS) Thales Nederland (Tacticos), Kronos Grand Naval Radar (Leonardo), a multi-function 3D active antenna radar (for conduct of Aster), and an Atlas sonar (TKMS). A project that seems well tied for TKMS.

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprise...ms-proche-de-detroner-naval-group-789068.html
 

The SC

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Interesting article regarding the Gowinds/Meko.

Naval Battle in Egypt: TKMS Near to Dethrone Naval Group
By Michel Cabirol | 03/09/2018, 6:56



Negotiations between Egypt and ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems are close to completion for a purchase of two Meko A200 corvettes. Naval Group is likely to be overtaken by its German rival.


According to concordant sources, ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS), aided by the French billionaire Iskandar Safa and very much supported by the German authorities , is close to blowing a contract for two corvettes in Egypt yet promised to Naval Group. Negotiations would currently focus on the equipment of the two Meko A200 corvettes and make good progress at the banking level. In France, on the other hand, pessimism dominated the chances of a new success for the sale of the last two Gowind 2500 to the Egyptian Navy. Naval Group had sold four in 2014. If 'Egypt adventure turned to Germany, it would indeed be a slap for France, which did not do what was necessary this summer to defend the interests tricolor.

Ironically, Cairo will launch on Thursday the first of three Gowind 2500 corvettes built locally by Alexandria Shipyard, the Egyptian military shipyard in Alexandria.
A ceremony that should not be attended by Egyptian President Abdel Fattah Al-Sissi or his new Minister of Defense, Mohamed Zaki. These absences, moreover, maintain French pessimism.

But why Meko?
The sale of the two Meko A200 (3,400 tons), if it ended, remains very intriguing. They are twice as expensive as the two Gowind 2500 (1 billion euros excluding armament, against 500 million for the two French corvettes). However, far from the two Meko sold in 2012 by TKMS to Algeria (2.1 billion). This purchase project also does not have "operational and logistical rationality since it adds a class of buildings to the Egyptian navy (training, MCO)," says one La Tribune.

In addition, it will not bring any added value at the diplomatic level to Egypt. Because if France supports Abdel Fattah Al-Sissi in a narrow way, Germany appears less reliable because of the fragile position of Angela Merkel in the German coalition and its cautious policy on arms exports that puts Egypt at the mercy of a German embargo similar to those in Turkey and Saudi Arabia. Finally, this project will have no impact for the Egyptian industry. The two German corvettes will be built in Kiel at German Naval Yards (with Israeli Sa'ar 6). Naval Group has built three corvettes in Alexandria.

For its part, France has proposed a homogeneous fleet to Egypt (1 frigate FREMM or another term, 6 Gowind 2500 and, finally, 2 GCP) which allowed the Egyptian Navy to rationalize its fleet made up of naval vessels. various foreign origins (Russian and German submarines, American patrol boats, Russian, French and South Korean corvettes, Russian and French frigates, French BPC ...). And she had proposed a local construction to accompany the country in the modernization of its construction site of Alexandria. Beyond that, France was planning to create a Gowind club in the region. After Egypt (4 copies + 2 in option) and the United Arab Emirates (2 being negotiated), France is targeting Saudi Arabia (5 units). The Gowind corvettes could provide for the security of the communication routes (Red Sea, Gulf,

Aster 15 on the Meko?
Will France agree to sell the Aster 15 system on a German platform? This weapon is reserved for French (Gowind, Fremm) or Italian (Qatari corvettes or FREMM, LPD sold to Algeria and Qatar) platforms. "This is an armament sensitive to the highly sought-after operational performances financed only by France and Italy," recalls La Tribune. In any case, the MBDA missile allegedly filed, according to our information, a request to the Interministerial Commission for the Study of Exports of Military Goods ( CIEEMG ). If this request is accepted, this decision would nullify a significant commercial advantage of Naval Group in favor of TKMS and Germany, whichsurface-to-air solution for the benefit of the Raytheon ESSM.

On the other hand, the Meko A200 would be equipped with the Exocet MM40 BIII missile (MBDA), which is already referenced on the four South African Meko A100s. Egyptians are also interested in the Umkhonto IIR short-range South-African surface-to-air missile manufactured by Denel and 35mm Rheinmetall guns. Moreover, Meko A200 could be equipped with the s ystem management battle ( CMS) Thales Nederland (Tacticos), Kronos Grand Naval Radar (Leonardo), a multi-function 3D active antenna radar (for conduct of Aster), and an Atlas sonar (TKMS). A project that seems well tied for TKMS.

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprise...ms-proche-de-detroner-naval-group-789068.html
Meko A200 is a frigate not a corvette! it is the equivalent of the FREMM..I think the additional Gowind 2000 corvettes procurement is just postponed..








 

Gomig-21

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Meko A200 is a frigate not a corvette! it is the equivalent of the FREMM..I think the additional Gowind 2000 corvettes procurement is just postponed..
The problem as I see it is the strange mechanics of the dealing. Something isn't right because of not only what you mentioned; the fact that they are different ships; corvettes vs much larger frigates in the Mekos, so what is the strategy? If they're trying to modernize both lines in the navy, that's understandable. But this is tied into the deal with the corvettes which is strange that they suddenly jump from those (apparently because of the financing deal wasn't good enough?) to the Mekos, which incidentally, each one of those is almost 4x the cost of a Gowind! If they had plans to add to the existing FREMM with Mekos, that's fine. Or finish one contract and then start another. At least that shows a concrete strategy because at the same time as working on increasing the corvette fleet, they're thinking of adding to the frigates which this doesn't seem to be the case. What this sounds like is they're unhappy with the deal by Naval Group and the Gowinds and then going to buy $2 billion worth of 2 Meko's instead?! We're not getting the full story besides the partial financing from Naval Group that the EN didn't like or didn't agree with the financing. I have a feeling there's more to it.
 

The SC

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The problem as I see it is the strange mechanics of the dealing. Something isn't right because of not only what you mentioned; the fact that they are different ships; corvettes vs much larger frigates in the Mekos, so what is the strategy? If they're trying to modernize both lines in the navy, that's understandable. But this is tied into the deal with the corvettes which is strange that they suddenly jump from those (apparently because of the financing deal wasn't good enough?) to the Mekos, which incidentally, each one of those is almost 4x the cost of a Gowind! If they had plans to add to the existing FREMM with Mekos, that's fine. Or finish one contract and then start another. At least that shows a concrete strategy because at the same time as working on increasing the corvette fleet, they're thinking of adding to the frigates which this doesn't seem to be the case. What this sounds like is they're unhappy with the deal by Naval Group and the Gowinds and then going to buy $2 billion worth of 2 Meko's instead?! We're not getting the full story besides the partial financing from Naval Group that the EN didn't like or didn't agree with the financing. I have a feeling there's more to it.
The deal for the two frigates is around $1 billion, plus some billionaire French guy from Arab origin got involved with the Germans to facilitate the deal.. Egypt was asking France for 100% financing for the two additiona corvettes.. the financing for the first deal was 60%.. and anyway we've heard the postponement of the additional Gowings deal, when the latest Rafale negotiations were taking place in France!..I think this has to do with the bid for 4 air defence Frigates..we've heard recently that Germany was very scared of loosing that deal to France!..another fact is that the new German frigates in the bid are not really operational, they are a concept, not throughly tested..So they might have come up with this "impossible to refuse" deal, with almost a 100% financing.. because I remember Algeria paying a bit more than $2 billion for its 2 Frigates..but they are really very well equipped and armed..And there is something else to second your opinion..in a few days there will be a ceremony to lunch the first Egyptian made Gowind, but neither Sissi nor the defence minister will be present.. this means that something has definitely angered Egypt in the additional Gowinds (and maybe the Rafale deal).. In any case this is good news, the Meko 200A is awesome.. We might even expect an additional two option..
 
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Gomig-21

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The deal for the two frigates is around $1 billion,
You're right. The way they phrased it sounded like it was around $1 billion per which BTW, might end up being somewhere around there anyway once all the equipment and armament is considered which as you say is essentially what the Algerians payed for theirs. Either way, I think if they think it's the right way to go since they don't seem interested in anymore FREMMs which seem like the slightly better option, so be it.

I think this has to do with the bid for 4 air defence Frigates..we've heard recently that Germany was very scared of loosing that deal to France!..another fact is that the new German frigates in the bid are not really operational, they are a concept, not throughly tested..So they might have come up with this "impossible to refuse" deal, with almost a 100% financing..
I think there's testiness going on with the French. I bet you that the declining of the financing for the Rafales at first was a slap in the face. I'm positive that they didn't appreciate that and felt embarrassed about the way they were treated with regards to that considering all the equipment they had already bought. I think that had a lot to do with the way the negotiations went and they couldn't come to an agreement because the Egyptian brass felt they should've given them a better deal after all that happened.

Nice F-16 selfie. This is also the first time I've seen any F-16 pilot cut the tips of a few of the gloves' fingers to push buttons and turn knobs a bit easier.

 

The SC

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You're right. The way they phrased it sounded like it was around $1 billion per which BTW, might end up being somewhere around there anyway once all the equipment and armament is considered which as you say is essentially what the Algerians payed for theirs. Either way, I think if they think it's the right way to go since they don't seem interested in anymore FREMMs which seem like the slightly better option, so be it.



I think there's testiness going on with the French. I bet you that the declining of the financing for the Rafales at first was a slap in the face. I'm positive that they didn't appreciate that and felt embarrassed about the way they were treated with regards to that considering all the equipment they had already bought. I think that had a lot to do with the way the negotiations went and they couldn't come to an agreement because the Egyptian brass felt they should've given them a better deal after all that happened.

Nice F-16 selfie. This is also the first time I've seen any F-16 pilot cut the tips of a few of the gloves' fingers to push buttons and turn knobs a bit easier.

Plus Egypt didn't ever defaulted on its payments! That was quite an insult by the French Finance minister that required the intervention of the French president himself.. add to it the Scallp complications..and the fact that France won't even try to match its competitors financing schemes and Voila..the picture is clear..
These Mekos will be 1 for each Mistral to provide a robust medium range air defence for them because their own is most likely going to be a short range one.. but massive..
 
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Gomig-21

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Plus Egypt didn't ever defaulted on its payments! That was quite an insult by the French Finance minister that required the intervention of the French president himself..
Yep, and give Macron a lot of credit for that. That was aces by him and he deserves a thumbs up. It's also important to keep the entire picture in perspective; they did, after all, provide two massive helicopter LHDs (granted they were somewhat stuck with them after Russia was forced to abandon that purchase due to sanctions imposed on it, but I'm sure there would've been plenty of takers out there for them, no two ways about it. Then of course the original contract for the 24 Rafales including the BVR missiles and Hammers and SCAPLs but at the same time, those birds wouldn't be worth half their weight had the MICAs been denied, so that's another twist to that whole saga. It's really quite something and then you have the FREMM and Gowinds. So the French have been pretty good with us so we certainly need to acknowledge that as well. But yes, to your point, there had to be some degree of insult when that purchase was temporarily denied that most certainly derailed the negotiations on the future Gowinds and left Sisi and company a little perturbed.

And speaking of Rafales, we should be seeing a new delivery of more of them soon. EAF Rafale DM09 being tested in Bordeaux.




 

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