• Tuesday, November 19, 2019

Egypt has placed order for Su-35s

Discussion in 'Arab Defence Forum' started by Zarvan, Mar 18, 2019.

  1. The SC

    The SC ELITE MEMBER

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    Who told you Russians spent or didn't, everyone is using Ram to lower RCS.. you seem sure about uncertainties..:frown:
    What about a single missile hitting Dimona? You know you are scared..that is why clinging to the US by all means..
     
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  2. HannibalBarca

    HannibalBarca SENIOR MEMBER

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    Chef exist thanks to that pan and pot...
    Ofc Equipment alone are useless... But to check you need to put him/her in situation aka WARish.
    Till then,we could only assume that they may or may not win. Since the equipment used are recent.
     
  3. Ceylal

    Ceylal ELITE MEMBER

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    Une 2cv ne battra jamais une Alfa Romeo..
    I sincerely doubt that they have a cook..Historical facts don’t lie..
     
  4. Beny Karachun

    Beny Karachun SENIOR MEMBER

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    There's no RAM on F-15s, or non-stealthy planes in general. If there's RAM on Su-35, it's a waste. Because it's not stealthy anyways.
    Dimona installation is 6 stories deep in the ground, so even if you could penetrate our air defenses, and reach the sixth floor, the building is built to contain itself. Nothing would happen if you strike Dimona. However, Egypt would be utterly crippled if Israel targets the Aswan.
     
  5. The SC

    The SC ELITE MEMBER

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    US and Russian experts have said long time ago that to destroy Aswan it will take no less than a few nuclear weapons.. so here goes your argument..and if you use Nukes in the middle east..you''ll be wiped out..everyone there is just waiting for that alibi..:lol:

    You must be living out of this world not to know that the US applies RAM coating to its 4th g fighters..

    "The most important contributors to low observability are the aircraft’s shape and the use of LO coatings, with airframe shape commonly seen as twice as important as the coatings, he said.
    “But just because it’s not a pure LO aircraft doesn’t mean that the designers weren’t concerned with the radar return,” said Laslie, who added that it’s “reasonable” to expect a 10 percent decrease to the aircraft’s signature by augmenting Block III jets with additional RAM coating."
    https://www.defensenews.com/digital.../09/how-stealthy-is-boeings-new-super-hornet/

    So stop quoting me with your dumb and baseless comments.. I don't like interacting with you or your kinds..
     
  6. Beny Karachun

    Beny Karachun SENIOR MEMBER

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    They never said that, one cruise missile is all that's needed.
    [​IMG]
    If striking Dimona is enough to destroy Israel but nuking the Aswan less than a few times won't destroy it, you're officially on the spectrum. A single cruise missile is enough to weaken the dam to such an extent that it will eventually break down.

    The F-18 Advanced Super Hornet is 0.1m^2 RCS, that's small enough to not grab attention by radars from far away. However, if radars see 1m^2-3m^2 objects, they will surely know it's an aircraft, and they can detect it from very far away. So it's not stealthy, but not to say it's defenseless because of that. If they put effort to make an aircraft's RCS lower, make it actually low.
     
  7. The SC

    The SC ELITE MEMBER

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    Your information is from the mid 80's. The Egyptians have built a huge series of locks and two massive diversion channels into the western desert which would mitigate the impact of destroying the Aswan dam. Also using cruise missiles or even J-dams wouldn't destroy the Aswan dam in the sense that all Lake Nasser would come gushing through. For that kind of damage you need to use a nuclear device. Even then, the backup locks down the Nile and the diversion channels will still protect the cities. Janes had a very interesting report on this a few years back. Israel just keeps burning its bridges, falsely believing they will maintain military superiority for ever.

    Now go find the truth before commenting here.. or on the Super Hornet RCS that has been achieved by RAM coating that does not seem to sink in your stubborn mind..
     
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  8. Beny Karachun

    Beny Karachun SENIOR MEMBER

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    Lol, a bunker buster bomb would surely punch a hole through any dam it wants, and the river will do the rest. You don't need nuclear bombs to destroy dams. The destruction of the Aswan would destroy your major cities, and will block all supply lines, reinforcements, etc to the Sinai.
     
  9. The SC

    The SC ELITE MEMBER

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    :laugh:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
  10. The SC

    The SC ELITE MEMBER

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    [​IMG]

    "The Russians use the ‘4++' label for the Su-35 to be able to claim they are able to achieve 90 percent or more of the capability of the far more expensive U.S.-made F-22 and F-35 platforms, but a lower cost," said a NATO intelligence officer who spoke to the Free Beacon. "This is why the Su-35 is the only Russian aircraft that has been purchased by the Chinese in more than a decade … the Su-35 represents significant combat power that goes far beyond the previous-models of Russian fighters acquired by Beijing in the 1990s and in the last decade."

    https://freebeacon.com/national-security/russia-to-supply-advance-fighter-aircraft-to-egypt/amp/

    -------------------------------------------------------------

    'Su-35 Can See F-35 All Right': Military Expert Says US Jet 'Too Complex'



    The US’ fifth generation F-35 stealth fighter is too expensive and will become less and less invisible as new and more sophisticated radars come along, Russian military expert Dmitry Drozdenko told Sputnik.

    Too Complex

    “The F-35 is a very complex system and, as such, it has lots of holes, bugs and other things, and it is very difficult to debug it. Like other problems, all this is because it is an excessively high-tech aircraft," Drozdenko said.
    He mentioned the problems the F-35 has had with its radar-evading coating and the life support system for its pilots.

    “The Americans tolerate this plane because it’s a very big and expensive business with contracts running into trillions of dollars. While they keep making the F-35as, the Americans are modernizing their 4++ generation F-18s and F-15s trying to bring them up to par with Russia’s Su-35,” he noted.

    The expert stressed that a single-hour flight of an F-35 costs about $40,000 compared to about $18,000 for an F-18.

    [​IMG]
    © REUTERS / Gary Cameron/File Photo
    US 5th-Gen F-35 Jet's Price Reportedly Dips 6 Percent After Trump's Criticism

    “Unlike us, the Americans rely too much on stealth. However, radar technology is developing fast and invisibility is no longer a sure-fire guarantor of air supremacy,” Drozdenko explained.

    He added that Russia, while also using stealth technology, still prioritizes the plane per se.
    “Dogfights haven’t gone anywhere. They will fire from a distance the first day, but a couple of days later, we’ll be flying like we always did before,” he said.

    Too Expensive

    Another big question is whether we really need such expensive planes like F-35s and Su-57s.

    Drozdenko believes that instead of going for the fifth generation, Russia should use the Su-57 prototype to develop a six-generation fighter.

    We should keep in mind that the Su-35S can see the F-35 all right and it has excellent flying characteristics too.

    Dmitry Drozdenko doesn’t think that Turkey would opt to buy Su-57s from Russia instead of the F-35s whose delivery has been put on hold by Washington, simply because Ankara has already paid for their delivery.

    "Another reason is that Turkey is part of the production chain and its exit would cost Lockheed Martin a lot of money,” the expert said, adding that the current spat between Turkey and the US was unlikely to result in a complete break-off because Turkey is too important ally for the US in the region.

    Still another reason for Washington’s decision to suspend the F-35s’ delivery to Turkey is Ankara’s decision to buy two batteries of the S-400 system from Russia.

    [​IMG]
    © Sputnik / Evgeny Biyatov
    Russian Military Inks Contract for First Batch of Su-57 Fifth-Gen Stealth Fighters

    Why don’t the Americans want to hand these planes over to Turkey? I think one reason is that the F-35s’ arrival would create a unique situation where US planes and Russian missile defense systems find themselves as part of a single armed force. Then it could transpire that the stealth fighter is not as stealthy as is touted. The word could leak out for everyone to realize that the F-35 is really not such a big deal after all. This could lead to a financial scandal.

    With India having pulled out of an 11-year joint program to develop a fifth generation fighter jet with Russia, built around the Su-57, Drozdenko said that it remains unclear whether Delhi really needs a fifth generation fighter.

    While admitting that technology-wise the F-35 leaves the Su-35 behind, the expert said that in a combat situation, technology is not always the winner.

    Imagine a BMW and a Russian Niva on a bumpy road somewhere deep in Russia. Which of the two will drive out? Technology is technology, but war is war,” he noted.

    He added that quality management with the F-35 depends directly on the manufacturer supplying spare parts, etc.
    “But what happens if a country buying these planes falls out of Washington’s favor? If it does, the Americans will simply pull the plug and the plane is no longer a plane. Everyone who buys [F-35] immediately becomes dependent on someone who has his finger on the button,” Dmitry Drozdenko emphasized.

    S-400

    Washington earlier warned Turkey that its planned purchase of the S-400 air defense system from Russia could reflect negatively on the supply of F-35s to its NATO ally.

    Washington is trying to persuade Turkey to buy the US-made MIM-104 Patriot surface-to-air-missiles, citing the S-400’s incompatibility with NATO Standards

    Moscow and Ankara inked a loan agreement for the acquisition of four S-400 air defense missile battery systems in December 2017. The initial delivery of the Russian-made advanced missile system to Turkey is planned for the first quarter of 2020.


    The views and opinions expressed by the speaker do not necessarily reflect those of Sputnik.


    https://sputniknews.com/analysis/201808151067215661-f35-su35-expert-opinion/

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    vs

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    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
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  11. The SC

    The SC ELITE MEMBER

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    Thales too was able to do this with the Indian Mig-29 when it was supplied with the "TSB 2500" and was able to provide interoperability with western military aircraft..

    https://defense-update.com/20100326_modernize-iff-mig-29.html
     
  12. Signalian

    Signalian PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

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    Interesting discussion, let compare the Capabilities of F-35 and SU-35 and then further on with legacy aircrafts (F-16, F-15, Mig-35 etc) as well as Rafale and see where the dog fight stands in middle east.

    Starting with F-35 and SU-35.

    The stealth Factor
    F-35 is a stealth aircraft while SU-35 is not, although its RCS has been reduced considerably yet not as small as F-35, which straightaway gives edge to F-35 in detecting SU-35 before the SU-35 can detect F-35, although due to steps taken in reducing RCS of SU-35, it might get detected at a later stage than earlier calculated.

    The basic stealth give-away for SU-35 is firstly its design, which is aerodynamic but not stealthy. Its engine nozzles are not as well protected to contain exhausts, and there are two of them, not even one like F-35. This gives an edge to F-35 RCS again, since the heat signature for SU-35 will be greater than F-35 during WVR combat when IR missiles come into play.

    The missiles for SU-35 will be carried externally which gives no advantage in reducing RCS, where as missiles of F-35 will be carried internally, which gives an RCS advantage to F-35.

    Role Playing
    Lets have a look at the roles of both aircrafts. F-35 was designed as multirole fighter, not as an air superiority fighter, yet it will be tasked to carry out the role of air to air combat. SU-35 on the other hand was designed from SU-27, an air superiority fighter, which further incarnated into SU-30 Strike fighter, attaining multirole capability.

    The role of F-35I could be strike missions using its stealth capability to enter EAF air space, wile SU-35's main role would probably be air dominance, while the likes of Rafale, F-16's and Mirage-2000 would fulfill the strike role. This is not necessarily true in every case since both aircrafts carry all type of weaponry. However in a scenario where IAF F-35I are encountered, EAF could launch SU-35's in response and a dog fight may ensue. IAF field a dedicated air superiority fighter, the famous F-15 in all versions, A/B/C and D, there is also E version (F-15I) used for strike role. It could be expected that F-35I will be escorted by F-15's while SU-35 will be complimented by Rafale. To maintain its stealthy profile, F-35 could also work best alone. On the other hand, IAF could use F-16 and F-15 to create a diversion and allow F-35 to strike from a different vector from a less defended air space and location.

    Payload - Carrying the bite
    F-35 carries Aim-120 and Aim-9x, apart from other AAM's. Two of each or a any other configuration. The best bet could be however to carry 4 long range AAM's and avoid to get close to SU-35 for WVR fights. Any load carried externally will enhance its RCS, giving away its stealthy profile by some margin. It can also carry different bombs in internal payload configuration which makes it a excellent strike fighter to penetrate enemy air defense, although it could give away its location if it starts to jam enemy radars and communications. Its external payload allows it to carry from missiles for different mission profiles.

    SU-35 on the other hand has 12 (or 14) hard points for a variety of AAM's to be carried: all ranges. A variant of R-73 (R-73 MII or R-74) is almost similar to Aim-9X. The Longest range missile is R-37 which is aimed at destroying slow moving aircrafts (AWACS/Refueler etc) operating deep down inside enemy air space, up to 350+ km. The R-27 and R-77 are medium to long range, depending upon their variants (including RVV-AE). For strike role, its capable to carry different types of missiles and bombs. The purpose of this post is Air to air combat between SU-35 and F-35 so i won't go into details of strike payload.

    While SU-35 may get a buddy refueling pod since SU-30 is buddy refuel capable, its not clear if F-35 will get buddy refuel capability.

    Electronics/Sensors - Smelling the coffee

    The avionics and sensors of F-35I can be debated since Israel is intent on using own electronic systems, but lets go with current ones. F-35 houses APG-81 AESA Radar, with E/O sensor (EOTS) on nose, used as a targeting system. The radar can track 23 targets and engage 19 of them. It can detect SU-35 at more than 150 km away. For RWR, self defense counter measures, situational awareness, surveillance and IR tracking, the F-35 carries ASQ-239 EW system, which has sensors spread throughout the body up to wing tips and tail. This supplemented by AAQ-37, DAS, which gives additional 6 sensors and counter measure system for alertness and protection. The AESA radar is inter-connected with all these systems, becoming a apart of EW system of F-35. Another capability is progress is controlling UCAV's through F-35 radar and sensory systems. HMDS is connected to everything; sensors and missiles (especially Aim-9X).

    SU-35 may become capable of carrying AESA Radar in future, although it currently carries IRBIS-E PESA Radar in RuAF service. The Radar can track 30 targets and attack 8 aerial targets simultaneously. It can detect F-35 around 80-90 km away. The L-175 Khibiny electronic warfare suite is employed, with new wingtip DRFM technology jamming pods. SU-35 has OLS-35 E/O device (IRST) and its capable of carrying KNIRTI SAP-14 and SAP-518 jamming pods for EW.

    Air Combat- The Real Deal


    There is a huge probability that F-35 will be guiding F-16's and F-15's in combat against SU-35, Mig-35, Rafale, F-16's etc. F-35 could fire off its long range AAM's to take out as many enemy fighters as it can and either turn away or stay in the arena to give back up to F-16's and F-15's through situational awareness, especially if an AWACS is not present due to the threat of being shot down by SU-35/Rafale. Unless F-35 is carrying a HOBS Aim-9x, it would be risky to get close to SU-35. F-35 will have to trade-off between stealth or range and payload. . F-35's fuel capacity is lesser than that of SU-35. In order to stay longer in the dog fight, it will need refueling or external tanks, a problem from which SU-35 is independent. SU-35 can carry, external fuel tanks while its internal fuel capacity is decent. SU-35 could have a higher climb rate than F-35 (cant find F-35 climb rate anywhere) as well as speed and agility, its ECM suite is quite good, but none of these factors guarantee that it will be evade AMRAAM or other BVR missiles fired by F-35. Rafale could compliment SU-35 in taking on F-35, although Rafale is non-stealthy too, but it houses an AESA and a good EW suite but that doesn't give edge over F-35. Through usage of lower frequency bands or when the bays of F-35 open for a missile launch, then chances to capitalize on these opportunities could help SU-35 to detect F-35 and if it could respond by firing at same time, then SU-35 could have a chance to take down F-35. Emission of low frequencies could detect F-35 since it begins to act like an antenna, re-radiating the electromagnetic field as current it induces flows from one end (or one side) to the other, due to change of wavelength. The RAM applied to attenuate higher frequency radars isn't thick enough to effectively eliminate the current flowing in the aircraft's body and airfoils at low frequencies, so it can reflect when wave length of RF signal varies from high to low. Otherwise using method of triangulation with the help of other aircrafts and radars deployed on ground could help in tracking F-35.

    F-35's stealth is the major factor which could ensure it survives the onslaught of SU-35 and Rafale, where as SU-35's maneuverability and large payload, along with use of EW sensors could help it take down F-35's.

    @Khafee @Tps43

    @Zarvan @FuturePAF @OCguy @gambit @GriffinsRule @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @F-22Raptor @dexter @LKJ86 @Super Falcon @Beast @SABRE @vostok
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
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  13. Beny Karachun

    Beny Karachun SENIOR MEMBER

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    That's bullshit.
     
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  14. Khafee

    Khafee PROFESSIONAL

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    Link to OP?
     
  15. Mithridates

    Mithridates FULL MEMBER

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    75 km