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Does Gen. Kiyani Have To Decide Between Corrupt Politicians or Musharraf?

batmannow

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Army's place should be in barracks or in battlefield they should not be allowed to interfere in Politics or history will keep repeating itself.
Dear, MR,GOODPERSON, sir..
I think, croupt politicians have place in jail.. would u agree with me.;)
 

Contrarian

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And why not? I think we can better understand this bitter but true reality. There is not leadership in Pakistan and Pakistan isn't a piece of cake that can easily be sacrificed between the fight of the politicians.
Therein lies the flaw. You expect your leaders to drop the the heavens and be all powerfull and right all the time.

I am sorry, but it does not work that way. You will have to suffer for years, till another political leader emerges who points out the follies of the other who is in power and his wrongdoings and takes away the votes. Then the next one comes up which does the same. Eventually all the politicians exhibit better leadership skills, as this is necessary for them to get elected. Slowly the people will also see which leader is actually delivering more. Its a two way street.

And Please, dont give the $hit that most Pakistani's are not literate and thus cant understand whom to vote. Even an illiterate in the village knows whether to vote for a man who brings roads and electricity to him or for one who just delivers empty promises. Sure, it may take him 2 elections-10 years that is to get it right, but eventually he will learn and the ones after him as well.

You cant expect your first batch to do everything right. It is a continuous process. Slowly your country will start getting better politicians. The problem is you and i might add from reading PDF that others like you, expect instant results. The new government has just come to power, they are already shaky, since they have come to power the price of oil has gone mindblowingly high and because of that you have a record deficit. Does it mean that the new government has failed you?

Have you even allowed your leaders to mature? No. Your army deposes them at its whims and the sadest part is that many people think that its the Army's prerogative to do so. What you never realise is the immense problems you are facing now are the work of your army, which might be excellent as a defender of the nation, but not as a ruler, And the number of problems you will face as your nation enters the future.

Its a two way street, as the politicians mature, so do the populace become wiser.
Democracy grows and develops slowly as an institution , the problem is that your Army has never allowed it to grow, develop and take root.
 
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Contrarian

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Dear, MR,GOODPERSON, sir..
I think, croupt politicians have place in jail.. would u agree with me.;)
I respectfully request you to please post in normal style minus the bold and italics and underline, it would make your posts FAR more legible. As of now, i cannot even read the bulk of your posts when you post in large paragraphs.
 

fatman17

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Therein lies the flaw. You expect your leaders to drop the the heavens and be all powerfull and right all the time.

I am sorry, but it does not work that way. You will have to suffer for years, till another political leader emerges who points out the follies of the other who is in power and his wrongdoings and takes away the votes. Then the next one comes up which does the same. Eventually all the politicians exhibit better leadership skills, as this is necessary for them to get elected.

You cant expect your first batch to do everything right. It is a continuous process. Slowly your country will start getting better politicians. The problem is you and i might add from reading PDF, is that you expect instant results. The new government has just come to power, they are already shaky, since they have come to power the price of oil has gone mindblowingly high and because of that you have a record deficit. Does it mean that the new government has failed you?

Have you even allowed your leaders to mature? No. Your army deposes them at its whims and the sadest part is that many people think that its the Army's prerogative to do so. What you never realise is the immense problems you are facing now are the work of your army, which might be excellent as a defender of the nation, but not as a ruler, And the number of problems you will face as your nation enters the future.
good read my friend but these politicians have failed us twice before. NS twice and PPP (read BB) twice. i know "three's a charm" but we are talking about the lives of 160m people which is not improving except for the politicians and in some cases the generals. the army is not solely at fault, its the whole trioka (politicians, the establishment and the army). its the fault of our un-educated masses who dont see the flaws in these so called politicians and the educated class who sit in their drawing rooms chalking up conspiracy theories and when the time comes to cast your vote, they dont have the time (this unfortunately includes me).we are to blame. we have to change. the damn politician knows that and therefore keeps doing what he does. the establishment supports whomever comes to power so that they get the piece of the pie and the army plays the waiting game till the politicians and the establishment screws things up so badly, that they (army) has no other choice (in their minds). they have a very deep interest in the industrial and economic affairs of the country and they cannot see this enterprise go under.
 

blain2

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Therein lies the flaw. You expect your leaders to drop the the heavens and be all powerfull and right all the time.

I am sorry, but it does not work that way. You will have to suffer for years, till another political leader emerges who points out the follies of the other who is in power and his wrongdoings and takes away the votes. Then the next one comes up which does the same. Eventually all the politicians exhibit better leadership skills, as this is necessary for them to get elected. Slowly the people will also see which leader is actually delivering more. Its a two way street.

And Please, dont give the that most Pakistani's are not literate and thus cant understand whom to vote. Even an illiterate in the village knows whether to vote for a man who brings roads and electricity to him or for one who just delivers empty promises. Sure, it may take him 2 elections-10 years that is to get it right, but eventually he will learn and the ones after him as well.

Democracy grows and develops slowly as an institution and takes root slowly, the problem is that your Army has never allowed it to grow and develop.

You cant expect your first batch to do everything right. It is a continuous process. Slowly your country will start getting better politicians. The problem is you and i might add from reading PDF, is that you expect instant results. The new government has just come to power, they are already shaky, since they have come to power the price of oil has gone mindblowingly high and because of that you have a record deficit. Does it mean that the new government has failed you?

Have you even allowed your leaders to mature? No. Your army deposes them at its whims and the sadest part is that many people think that its the Army's prerogative to do so. What you never realise is the immense problems you are facing now are the work of your army, which might be excellent as a defender of the nation, but not as a ruler, And the number of problems you will face as your nation enters the future.
However there have been times in the history of Pakistan when the politicians have left a void which has resulted in instability, thus giving space to the Army to move in. The problem in Pakistan is that the Army needs to be assured that things are moving in a certain direction (not saying good or bad) and the country is not rudderless. During the decades of the 90s, the political infighting was at such a scale that the country's economy was severely impacted resulting in increased challenges to national security (due to the economic mismanagement of the 90s, key programs related to the security of the country were being impacted).

The ideal situation for Pakistan is to have an uninterrupted democracy, but the democratic leaders have to make sure that they do not fall prey to petty politics of victimization and lose focus on governance. When this happens then by default, the public opinion becomes conducive to military takeovers.
 

batmannow

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Although I do not ant to see another Army intervention, what you say above (that a nation deserves the leaders it gets) hold true even when Army won't intervene. Its a bloody joke that we have convicts (NS and team) and thugs (Asif Zardari, has probably stolen even more than NS) as the alternate. Talk about being stuck in between a rock and a hard place.

In any case, Pakistan has suffered through the 90s, and if the nation is asking for more of the same then by all means let them have it...I guess the only consolation is that after getting whacked around for another decade, maybe the Pakistani nation will learn to chose a little more carefully.
My, dear BLAIN 2 , sir..
I agree , to some extent , but is that good tht a uneducated & emotional nation like PAKISTANIS shouldbe left alone! because they cant select not good people to govrn them?
I guss, even if GEN. KIYANI doesnt interfere in this mess & even if PRESIDENT MUSHARAF had to go ! can GEN. KIYANI bow to these thugs for thier another demand, which can be ISI should be banned or what if ZARDARI wants to kick him out from the job?
;)
 

Goodperson

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Dear, MR,GOODPERSON, sir..
I think, croupt politicians have place in jail.. would u agree with me.;)
Agreed corrupt politicians should face trial and if convicted should go to Jail, , Democracy has means to take care of such politicians however some do manage to survive.
Democracy should be given chance and time to sustain itself and get matured. Military is not a solution for general masses.
 

Marshal

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good read my friend but these politicians have failed us twice before. NS twice and PPP (read BB) twice. i know "three's a charm" but we are talking about the lives of 160m people which is not improving except for the politicians and in some cases the generals. the army is not solely at fault, its the whole trioka (politicians, the establishment and the army). its the fault of our un-educated masses who dont see the flaws in these so called politicians and the educated class who sit in their drawing rooms chalking up conspiracy theories and when the time comes to cast your vote, they dont have the time (this unfortunately includes me).we are to blame. we have to change. the damn politician knows that and therefore keeps doing what he does. the establishment supports whomever comes to power so that they get the piece of the pie and the army plays the waiting game till the politicians and the establishment screws things up so badly, that they (army) has no other choice (in their minds). they have a very deep interest in the industrial and economic affairs of the country and they cannot see this enterprise go under.
Only Gen. Musharaf and your Army to blame for their re-election. If your army had not intervene in 1999, evantually the people of pakistan themself would have thrown them out of power in upcoming election and probably a new leader would have emerged from that election ..... cuz NS and his govt were already very unpopular at that time....perhaps this coup has given them the time to regroup and now they are re-elected in to the perlament....even it has given them a chance to claim themself innocent form all the curruption charges by claiming that they were accused wrongly by the general for the sake of power only.
 
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blain2

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My, dear BLAIN 2 , sir..
I agree , to some extent , but is that good tht a uneducated & emotional nation like PAKISTANIS shouldbe left alone! because they cant select not good people to govrn them?
I guss, even if GEN. KIYANI doesnt interfere in this mess & even if PRESIDENT MUSHARAF had to go ! can GEN. KIYANI bow to these thugs for thier another demand, which can be ISI should be banned or what if ZARDARI wants to kick him out from the job?
;)
Batman,

If the Army intervenes again, then you have to start this process all over again. I am just saying that let it take its due course. I hope something amicable can be worked out between Musharraf and Pakistan's democrats (NS and Zardari are not included, the way they run their own parties runs contrary to all norms of democracy so I have no hope from these two useless bums).

The NSC is the one hope for the near future which can keep some pressure on these idiots running the show right now..but aside from that we would have to consider all the bs that they garner for Pakistan as growing pains.
 

IceCold

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Therein lies the flaw. You expect your leaders to drop the the heavens and be all powerfull and right all the time.

I am sorry, but it does not work that way. You will have to suffer for years, till another political leader emerges who points out the follies of the other who is in power and his wrongdoings and takes away the votes. Then the next one comes up which does the same. Eventually all the politicians exhibit better leadership skills, as this is necessary for them to get elected. Slowly the people will also see which leader is actually delivering more. Its a two way street.

And Please, dont give the that most Pakistani's are not literate and thus cant understand whom to vote. Even an illiterate in the village knows whether to vote for a man who brings roads and electricity to him or for one who just delivers empty promises. Sure, it may take him 2 elections-10 years that is to get it right, but eventually he will learn and the ones after him as well.

You cant expect your first batch to do everything right. It is a continuous process. Slowly your country will start getting better politicians. The problem is you and i might add from reading PDF that others like you, expect instant results. The new government has just come to power, they are already shaky, since they have come to power the price of oil has gone mindblowingly high and because of that you have a record deficit. Does it mean that the new government has failed you?

Have you even allowed your leaders to mature? No. Your army deposes them at its whims and the sadest part is that many people think that its the Army's prerogative to do so. What you never realise is the immense problems you are facing now are the work of your army, which might be excellent as a defender of the nation, but not as a ruler, And the number of problems you will face as your nation enters the future.

Its a two way street, as the politicians mature, so do the populace become wiser.
Democracy grows and develops slowly as an institution , the problem is that your Army has never allowed it to grow, develop and take root.
Dude you are wrong in your analysis. These people are not new that one can say they need more time to set things in order, in fact the already things that have been set in order have started to deteriorate the foreign reserves are an all time down, the value of ruppee is an all time down, just see the inflation rate which is going an all time high in the history of Pakistan. If you wanna argue with me do it with logic's not your personal views about this or that. The problem does not lie with me or people who have a little bit of sense to understand that this roti kapra is all BS and nothing more but with the uneducated masses who give vote on Baradari system and not on leadership skills or by judging the caliber of the party leadership and that is what is the most worst for Pakistan. I gave an example to salim too when he was arguing over the same, over how people have voted this time. Also I'm sure you have witnessed NS era, for god sake country was almost nearer to be declared a failed state. If this is the democracy that you are talking about, thanks we are better of without it. Also just review Pakistan's history most of the development that we saw was in the army rule and nothing but chaos in civilian rule. The new government has failed miserably in delivering their promises and even now instead of working for the betterment of the state and its people all they care about is how to impeach the president as if there is nothing else to deal with. This shows their lack of commitment to their country, their nation, all they care about is personal revenge. Sorry but we are far better off without these democratic thugs. If army can set thing right and put Pakistan back on track then so be it.
 

batmannow

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Batman,

If the Army intervenes again, then you have to start this process all over again. I am just saying that let it take its due course. I hope something amicable can be worked out between Musharraf and Pakistan's democrats (NS and Zardari are not included, the way they run their own parties runs contrary to all norms of democracy so I have no hope from these two useless bums).

The NSC is the one hope for the near future which can keep some pressure on these idiots running the show right now..but aside from that we would have to consider all the bs that they garner for Pakistan as growing pains.
Dear, BLAIN2, sir,
SIR, i dont like to agree with you sir, actully even MINUS ZARDARI +NAWAZ would not be allowed to be in the power zone ,again the most of our socalled DEMOCRATS would be doing smilr things to harm the nation just because of their own likes or dislikes, or thier vested intrsts... and then many of them would be thinking to blackmail the armd forces.

HOUNRABLE sir, we can look many examples today in the world, where smallar countries like BANGLADESH has put its fromer PRIME MINSTERS behind the bars & BANGLADESH ARMY is leading the nation, they didnt introduce any so called NRO, they were under preasure from EU and USA, BUT THEY DIDNT BOW TO ALL THAT CRAP?

I guss, pakistan needs to have different system of DEMOCRACY & updated CONSTITUTION, our constitution is out dated and can be ussed by any croupt politician and it doesnt give any safty to a common man, this constitution only protects the croupt politicians
which it had produced in 60 years. we need stop this folish and un balanced system.
I guss, its oky if PAKARMY bootout all this crap now belive me, champions of DEMOCRACY(USA+EU & ALLIES) arent in the position to do anything at all , it would be best for pakistani nation to stop this DANGEROUS and harm full DEMOCRACY, IT SHOULD ONLY BE ALLOWED on the level of local level & DEMOCRACY should be taught for at least 5 years till thn... a prime minster should be chosen from from the local level :tup::agree:
 

IceCold

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Only Gen. Musharaf and your Army to blame for their re-election. If your army had not intervene in 1999, evantually the people of pakistan themself would have thrown them out of power in upcoming election and probably a new leader would have emerged from that election ..... cuz NS and his govt were already very unpopular at that time....perhaps this coup has given them the time to regroup and now they are re-elected in to the perlament....even it has given them a chance to claim themself innocent form all the curruption charges by claiming that they were accused wrongly by the general for the sake of power only.
Stop acting as if you know better. What did you expect from the army to do when the PM tells their army chief "go land in India". Are you kidding me if army would have not reacted then god knows how many lives would have been lost or for that matter the army chief of the PA getting arrested in India completely destroying the moral of the armed forces of Pakistan. Army rightly acted then and by the way it was largely supported by the masses then as well. Musharraf only recently lost his popularity among the masses due to his stance on WOT, the CJ issue and electricity and atta crises, otherwise he was highly popular among the masses. But the things that caused Musharraf to loose his popularity, the government even could not deliver its promises in providing relief to the nation in 100 days. All we have seen is more chaos.
 

Marshal

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Stop acting as if you know better. What did you expect from the army to do when the PM tells their army chief "go land in India". Are you kidding me if army would have not reacted then god knows how many lives would have been lost or for that matter the army chief of the PA getting arrested in India completely destroying the moral of the armed forces of Pakistan. Army rightly acted then and by the way it was largely supported by the masses then as well. Musharraf only recently lost his popularity among the masses due to his stance on WOT, the CJ issue and electricity and atta crises, otherwise he was highly popular among the masses. But the things that caused Musharraf to loose his popularity, the government even could not deliver its promises in providing relief to the nation in 100 days. All we have seen is more chaos.

No need to get personal....anyway...... but Why would your PM do something like that to the Army chief??? there has to be some reason.....!!!!! May be the PM smelled that something was cooking in the army camp...???
 
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fatman17

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Only Gen. Musharaf and your Army to blame for their re-election. If your army had not intervene in 1999, evantually the people of pakistan themself would have thrown them out of power in upcoming election and probably a new leader would have emerged from that election ..... cuz NS and his govt were already very unpopular at that time....perhaps this coup has given them the time to regroup and now they are re-elected in to the perlament....even it has given them a chance to claim themself innocent form all the curruption charges by claiming that they were accused wrongly by the general for the sake of power only.
on hindsight u could be right but alas the real world works differently!
 

Spring Onion

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At this moment Army i dont think so will anything but in case if Musharraf was removed and Zardari forced himself as President and then he tried to rip Army and ISI tear down as he is mulling for the same in collaboration with CIA and US through Unelected agent of CIA/RAW Rehman Malik, then i believe and wish that Kiyani should come into action.


Plus the second posibility is if somehow President dosnt resign and agree to face impeachment and somehow if impeachment fails, the country will be in a crises too so at that time if Army can play any role it should come forward.
 

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