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Disgraced heroes of nuclear Pakistan

Discussion in 'Pakistan Strategic Forces' started by EagleEyes, May 29, 2007.

  1. Ababeel

    Ababeel FULL MEMBER

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    Where were the Jews for last almost 2000 years before 19th century. Where were jews when muslim army captured Jerusalem in the reign of Caliph Omar (R.A.). Christian army and population was there to fight the muslim army and no Jews. Even in the surrender agreement or Jerusalem hand over pact Christian leaders were hell bent, that the new muslim administrators must not allow the jews for pilgrimage and settlement in Palestine and specially the Jerusalem for which the pact was being agreed.
    Which jewish population you are talking ?
    The Jewish population brought and illegally settled by Terrorist US and UK by using all means of terrorising the Palestinian population?
     
  2. zraver

    zraver PROFESSIONAL

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    There has never been a time when Jews did not live in Palestine, kicked out of Jeruslem from time to time does not mean kicked out of the entire region.

    [/quote]1486 "a distinguished pilgrim" to the Holy Land, the Dean of Mainz Cathedral, Bernhard von Breidenbach, advised that both Hebron's and Jerusalem's Jews "will treat you in full fidelity -- more so than anyone else in those countries of the unbelievers."22[/quote]

    http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~peters/presence.html

    All the claims are properly work cited and source in the biblio at the bottom of the links page.

    Only the ignorant masses and those who use racism over logic persist in the beleif that the was ever a time from thje Hyskion expulsion forward that the area did not have a Jewish population. The jews are ther eand have been there non-stop for thousands of years. The palestinians have much younger claims but are jsut as attached to the land. the result is war. There is also a continious Christian presence from the Death of Christ forward.
     
  3. Neo

    Neo RETIRED

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    IIRC UK at one point suggested a jewish state in Africa, somewhere near Uganda but the proposal was rejected by the jewish leaders.
     
  4. Neo

    Neo RETIRED

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    Or give them Florida, Boca is as sacred to Jews is Jesusalem nowadays. ;)
     
  5. Neo

    Neo RETIRED

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    Sir,

    Undenialble is also the fact that Abraham (called Abram at that time), the father of Jewish nation, himself came from the ancient city of Ur in Chaldea...a place near Basra in Southern Iraq. According to The Pentateuch (The Thora) God chose and commanded him to follow His lead to the land where He would bless Abram with offspring and create God's nation called Israel.
    The claim is based on religion and the land is known as Israel today.
    If religion is a legitimate source of claim then Muslims should have the same rights.

    Abrams route to kana'an, The Promised Land
    b2990623fde11fdaa99064ee12a3afe5.png
     
  6. zraver

    zraver PROFESSIONAL

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    Neo, I am not denying Muslim claims although religously form the western perspective they are not the hiers of Abraham in this region-Ishmael went a seperate direction. Palestinians actually trace their oldest claims through Palestinian Christians. What I am try to do is level the palyign feild here, so that a rational discussion can take place.If we accpet all claims as valid then the only solution is one that is equitable. This means israel has to stop certain practices and guarentee the integrity of the lands deemed Palestinian. However the same burden is palce don the Palestinians.

    The chief stumbling block is the right of return, and quite frankly the Palestinians lost that right when they made war- to the victor go the spoils, not to the loser go the spoils. Plus any talk about the right of return would also involve compensation for thye mass expulsions of the Jews in Islamic lands.

    The best solution is for those wealthy nations with a vested interes tin the region to buy the Palestinian claims to israel outright with the palestinian authority using immenint domain where needed to get such claims. And then use that cash to build a Modern Palestinian state. But as history has shown again and again the Palestinians and those profitting off thier plight (glares at Syria and Iran) don't want a two state solution.

    BTW the modern day Chaldeans are Christian not Muslim, a fac tthat has them being force dout of Iraq in droves.
     
  7. EagleEyes

    EagleEyes PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    Makes a lot of sense.
     
  8. joey

    joey SENIOR MEMBER

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    If you think Israel needs to be wiped off, I can question and can debate your thoughts and its direct interestes with India, add to that I can question the reason you feel that Pakistans partition was legitimate, or even Bangladeshs one was legitimate or not based on your quid=pro=pro thoughts.

    Get over it, Every partition in this world happened as a follow up to series of political movement, USSR got broken into pieces, Pakistan lost its one part, India ceased to exist from "akhand bharat", The solution lies in peace and only peace.

    For once surely there are some serious human rights issues when Israel is concerned then again you have always the other side of the story as well.

    Make no mistake I'm no zionist singer, but a avid nationalist and i hate communism and anything relating communists borderless brotherhood idea.

    As much as I feel for re-settlement for Palestanians for better life, I'm happy that the money from Arab is being diverted in two source one to kashmir and another to palestain, (forgot the money in mango box issue?) imagine what would have happened if all finances came here eh? Or you dont care for the jawans fighting at -40 degrees?

    PS : regarding Iran and Israel issue, I fully and fuly support Irans civilian nuclear programme, Iran is Indias long lasting friend and not some double faced hypocrits like Saudi Arabia.

    and oh do you know if Israel attacks Iran it has to do that through Arabs airspace only?



    The entire Israeli flight plan between Israel and Iraq is done via Saudi Arabia and so will be against Iran.
     
  9. niaz

    niaz PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    What I find paradoxical in all this debate is that,the world that mattered ( Britain, France and US) agreed to grant the land of Palestine to Jews. Mainly because that they were rulers of that land ( Judea and Israel being two ancient Jewish states) about the time Romans arrived.
    But they conveniently ignore sons of the soil before and after !!. What about the rights of the Palestinians??. According to Bible Canaanites and Moabs were living there before the Israelites thew them out and captured these lands. How far back you want to go, dont the descendents of those people have a prior claim??.

    Fact of the matter is Israel is a state born out of forced eviction of the Palestinians. True, there was no country called Palestine but the land was called Palestine from God knows when. The whole area was a the Turkish Province called 'Bilad us Sham'. This included modern day Syria, Lebenon, Jordan and Israel. The divison was artificial based upon an agreement between the Allies ( UK and France) who were fighting against the Axis powers ( Germany and Turkey). UK had promised Syria to Amir Faisal. However instead they made him King of Iraq ( another Turkish province) , His younger brother Amir Abdullah of Trans Jordania ( Across Jordan river). Lebenon and Syria were handed over to France and Palestince was governed by UK under a League of Nations mandate.

    The above are historical facts. Pray tell me on what grounds one justify evicting Palestinians and settling Jews in their places. Irony is that most of the Jewish settlers weren't really the Jews by "race". Story is that a country called Khazaar around Caspian Sea ( Also known as Sea of Khazaars) decided that they wanted to be neither the Christians nor Muslims, so they converted en mass to Judaism. Most European Jews are these Kazaars and they speak 'Yiddish'. Just think, any one "native' of Palestine/ Egypt as the Israelites originally were, would be expected to look like Arabs who are literally their cousins and even Hebrew is quite similar to Semitic languages. Euoropean or Ashknazi Jews are truly Europeans.

    One has to face the facts; The known world has been ruled by the European Powers since the start of Industrial Revolution ( late 18th Century). These powers have divided, created and evicted local population as they saw fit. In case of the Americas ( US in particular) most of the native population was killed off.

    One Hon member had mentioned that Iraq attack was "Coallition". What a joke, only two countries really sent any siginificant forces; US and Britain, other contingents are numbered in only tens and hunderds ( Spain, South Korea, Italy and Japan). This is a deception carried thru the might of the US and its media.

    No matter what Arabs and rest the world desires; power still lies with the US and its allies and they rule the roost. Prudence therefore demands that we accept it. What I despise however is that US through its propaganda insults my intelligence.
     
  10. Adux

    Adux SENIOR MEMBER

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    Sir,

    Isnt that circle of life, the spoils are for the victors, Palestine was a british province and they gave it to the jews. They have the right....Such is life.
    What would you say if Sikh's start demanding eastern punjab.
    Jews were also thrown out of palestine during different times?
     
  11. zraver

    zraver PROFESSIONAL

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    1- The kazaari might be a part of the Jewish population, but not the bulk by anymeans. Of the others while ethnically European via ages of interbreeding they are the direct decendants of the Jews exiled by Rome. They were recognized as kindsmen by the Jews who had never left Judea.

    2- If you want to talk insulting some ones intelligenge- why do so many Muslims refuse to admit that the land was never jew free, and complain about a Palestinian expulsion while ignoring Islam's own expulsion of Jews?

    3- Most Israelies today were born in Palestine, can you get any more native than that. There ar eeven now third generation Israelies. Seeing as most palestinoians were only thrid generation in 1948....... what exactly makes some one native?