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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

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sancho

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Senior IAF officers, who have dealt with the Rafale acquisition process, pointed out that the delays on the life cycle costs negotiations were due to the fact that this was the first-ever Indian defence deal in which these costs were being worked out. It had also been made mandatory to calculate the life cycle costs before the deal is signed.
‘‘Life cycle cost is an important determinant in deciding with whom the contract would be signed. Even at this stage, the tender process provides for going back to the negotiating table with the second lowest bidder,’’ a former officer, who did not wish to be identified, said. But Typhoon’s costs are prohibitively higher than Rafale, he added.
Nothing new actually, but as I said, it depends on what you get in return! If the EF partners can provide more overall advantages, the high costs would still be worth it. Otherwise the Rafale remains the prefered choice, but they played themselfs into trouble with all the delays and unnecessary. When you think about it, Rafale and EF were shortlisted in 2011, in 2012 the L1 was announced, but Dassault were only able to fix all offsets/ToT requirements early 2014.

But someone else already did before me...
Meaning?
 

meena24

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True, but the project is too important for us to let it go, since it will set the base for our aero industry for the future. Even if delayed, we gained a lot of important and useful know how, we now have to learn how to fix the problems. The MK1 is already under production and after FOC should be reasonably good for air policing and CAS roles. The Mig 35 won't come for sure, for numerous reasons of the fighter itself, but MMRCA is meant to be the alternative for LCA and if MK2 would not be inducted, it would only mean more of the MMRCA winner and not to add a different type of fighter.
can you explain why it wont come, here is a news link stating that Russian Air force will induct Mig-35 after 2016

http://defenceradar.com/2014/05/06/russian-air-force-induct-mig-35-fighters-2016/


Why it cant be inducted, Already our squadrons dwindling, I expect Jaguar aircraft will be obsolete by 2020.

Why i bet on Mig-35 is Indian Airforce technicians and professionals are already trained with Mig model aircrafts. Further if you see by 2020.

100 Mig -27 Aircraft

125 Mig-21 ( I don't know the exact number of Mig-21's in service)

100 Jaguar

all the above three aircrafts will end their service life by 2020 barring jaguar due to some dartin up grades.

a) To replace all these aircraft's we need to induct additional fighters apart from MRCA either it should be Mig-35 or it should be additional SU-30MKI apart from 272 already ordered.

b) We have to procure more rafales from Dassault Rafale plant itself rather than making it in HAL, because i believe Rafale plant in France can manufacture at least 10 aircraft minimum. I don't have any idea about their maximum production capabilities. If the order goes beyond 125 units we can procure more aircraft from Dassault Rafale plant itself.

Pakistan might develop the first prototype of JF-17 Thunder Block II before this year. Our qualitative edge via Pakistan will rapidly get blunt if Pakistan inducts 13 F-16 fighter aircraft from Jordan.

your views @ sancho on additional MKI's and the option of directly procuring the aircraft from Dassault Rafale instead of making all the Aircraft here.
 

sancho

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can you explain why it wont come, here is a news link stating that Russian Air force will induct Mig-35 after 2016
It won't come to India, the Russians might take it, mainly to keep Mikoyan alive, but that's up to them.

all the above three aircrafts will end their service life by 2020 barring jaguar due to some dartin up grades.

a) To replace all these aircraft's we need to induct additional fighters apart from MRCA
Many mistakes, Jags will remain in service far beyond 2020, while most of the Mig 21s and 27s will be phased out before 2020. The Mig 27 for the most part will already be replaced by MKIs, the Mig 21s by LCA + MMRCA. FGFA numbers are meant to replace M2Ks, Mig 29s and even the Jags at the end, so there is no need for another fighter, until the MKI needs a replacement.

either it should be Mig-35 or it should be additional SU-30MKI apart from 272 already ordered.
As already explained, IAF don't want to increase the overdependance on Russia, therefore additional MKIs are not wanted. The last order was most likely even a forced one, because of the delays for FGFA development on the one side and the bad shape of Mig 27s on the other.

i believe Rafale plant in France can manufacture at least 10 aircraft minimum. I don't have any idea about their maximum production capabilities.
Currently 11 per year, increase possible to 30 per year.
 

sancho

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Funding windfall for UK defence projects

Royal Air Force operations with the Sentinel R1 and Shadow R1 intelligence aircraft are to be extended until 2018, as part of a £1.1 billion ($1.8 billion) funding boost for the Ministry of Defence announced at the show. Also included is money to acquire an active electronically scanned array radar for some of the service’s Eurofighter Typhoons...

...“There will be further investment in unmanned future combat air systems, and in an upgraded E-scan radar for our Typhoons,” Cameron says, with further details on both projects expected to emerge here on Tuesday. “This is a huge programme of investment to give our armed forces the tools they need to the job,” he adds.

Meanwhile, Cameron says that “there are other potential orders” for the Typhoon, beyond the UK’s success to date in brokering sales with Oman and Saudi Arabia. “We have got to keep working hard with partners to get this aircraft into as many markets as possible,” he says. “But I’m confident about what we have to sell.”...
FARNBOROUGH: Funding windfall for UK defence projects - 7/14/2014 - Flight Global

Seems like the EF finally will get it's AESA, the question is only when and how?
 

atlssa

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India closes in on $20 billion Rafale deal - The Times of India
India is quietly continuing its final negotiations
for acquiring 126 French Rafale fighters in
the almost $20 billion MMRCA
(medium multi-role combat aircraft) project.


NEW DELHI: Unruffled by the last-ditch bids being made by countries like the US, UK, Germany and Sweden to wade into the "mother of all defence deals", India is quietly continuing its final negotiations for acquiring 126 French Rafale fighters in the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project.

Defence ministry sources on Monday said another meeting of a sub-committee of the ongoing CNC (contract negotiation committee), which includes representatives from MoD, IAF, DRDO and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), is slated to take place on July 17-19 in Bangalore with the French companies led by Dassault Aviation.

As reported by TOI last month, the complex negotiations have now finally reached a stage from where they can be wrapped up in the next three months, with over 50% of the final contract as well as the inter-governmental agreement already finalized. "After that, it will be a political call. The approval process will go right up to the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) before the contract can be inked," said a source.

Once the project is finalized, the first 18 jets are to be delivered to IAF within 36-48 months, while the rest 108 will be manufactured by HAL with transfer of technology over the next seven years.

With the final lap is sight, a lot of heat and dust is now being generated by the rivals earlier eliminated from the race after exhaustive technical and commercial evaluations since the MMRCA selection process began way back in August 2007.

Last week, for instance, visiting British foreign secretary William Hague lobbied hard for the Eurofighter Typhoon, which is backed by UK, Germany, Spain and Italy, during his meetings with the Modi government. Germany, too, is learnt to have renewed the push for the Typhoons.

Similarly, the US lobby still harbors the hope that either the F/A-18 `Super Hornet' or the F-16 `Super Viper' can fly back into the MMRCA competition, and it will set the "right tone" for PM Narendra Modi's meeting with President Barack Obama in Washington in September.

But the Indian defence establishment is quite clear there can be "no comebacks" in the ongoing MMRCA project. "There are only two possibilities. One, the deal is inked for the Rafale jets. Conversely, the entire MMRCA process is scrapped, after being in the works for a decade, with a fresh global tender or RFP (request for proposal) being issued," said the source.

The Rafale deal is being attacked on the ground that it will prove to be exorbitant. But the Typhoon, the only other fighter to pass muster during the extensive field trials, had proved to be "much more expensive" than the Rafale on both "direct cost of acquisitions" and "life-cycle costs" in January 2012.

With IAF down to 34 fighter squadrons, when at least 44 are required, IAF has identified the MMRCA project as its "topmost priority" for the Modi government. The indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft, which is yet to receive its final operational clearance despite being in the making for 30 years, cannot fulfill the MMRCA's role. A MMRCA, for instance, will have three times the range and weapon-load carrying capacity as compared to the Tejas, which will be critical to take on China if required.
 

sancho

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Crossposting from the MP forum (credits for Olybrius)

Talios LDP / PDL NG for Mirage 2000 and Rafale F3R:

Talios
Designed entirely around operational feedback from users, TALIOS is the latest addition to the Thales family. TALIOS is the first optronic pod to cover the entire critical decision chain from intelligence gathering to weapon delivery...
Talios | Thales Group




Wonder where the RCS reduction features that early reports talked about should be?
 

sancho

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More from Farnborough

BAE To Flight-Trial New Radar for RAF Aboard Typhoon

prototype active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar developed to meet specific British Royal Air Force requirements is to be flight-trialed on a Eurofighter Typhoon jet as part of a £72 million (US $123 million) deal awarded to BAE Systems by the Ministry of Defence here.
The three-year contract, called the E-Scan Extended Assessment Phase, is being undertaken by the British separately from a parallel development program called Radar 1+ that the four Typhoon partner nations of Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain committed to on July 15.

The deal with the British involves a number of work packages including a Typhoon flight test of a prototype radar as well as ground testing at BAE’s electronic warfare test facility at Warton in northwest England...
BAE To Flight-Trial New Radar for RAF Aboard Typhoon | Defense News | defensenews.com


RAF Tornados to get Brimstone 2 missiles in 2015

...The RAF’s Eurofighter Typhoons are also scheduled to receive the munition, but not until much later in the decade. This prompted the National Audit Office in February to issue a report warning that the UK will face a capability gap between 2019, when the Tornado is scheduled for retirement, and 2021, when Brimstone 2 is scheduled be integrated on Typhoon.
FARNBOROUGH: RAF Tornados to get Brimstone 2 missiles in 2015 - 7/17/2014 - Flight Global
 

sancho

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IAF inches closer to the mega fighter jet deal

In a move that is being viewed with much anticipation, starting tomorrow, officials from French firm Dassault Aviation, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Indian Air Force (IAF) will engage in 48 hours of negotiations in Bangalore over the deal to acquire 126 Rafale fighter jets under the long-standing Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contract. The conclusion of this round is likely to land the IAF just one step away from concluding the entire set of negotiations and thereby, signing the deal.
A senior Ministry of Defence (MoD) official said, "We expect total closure of negotiations over Transfer of Technology (ToT) from this round. With that done, we will have completed negotiations by sub committees on ToT, offsets and maintenance." He added, "What will remain will be the overall cost and there too, 75 per cent of the work has been completed."

Sources indicated the IAF believes that Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC) could complete its entire gamut of work before December this year, following which the matter will be placed before the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), after consultations with the Finance Ministry. "We are not being ambitious if we say we expect the deal to be signed before the end of this financial year," said a source...
IAF inches closer to the mega fighter jet deal : India, News - India Today
 

rockstarIN

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I think brits refused to sell us their tornados and we were forced to buy gaugars. Had they sold tornados that time, it would have been helpful for them to get mmrca.
 

he-man

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People mmrca is way more vital for us than the french,,,the more time we waste the less squadron strength becomes........................deliveries will start only after 3 years of signing the deal so lets hope it gets done fast
 

Dillinger

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People mmrca is way more vital for us than the french,,,the more time we waste the less squadron strength becomes........................deliveries will start only after 3 years of signing the deal so lets hope it gets done fast
10-15000 crores INR is what we need as down payment, first installment, which is not accounted for in the capital acquisition component of IAF's current budget. Time to lagega, negotiations, wrangling etc.
 

he-man

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10-15000 crores INR is what we need as down payment, first installment, which is not accounted for in the capital acquisition component of IAF's current budget. Time to lagega, negotiations, wrangling etc.
remember i said this last year that economy will prove as a hurdle eventually,,,its exactly whats happening.

we are paying for wasting time on the deal in the garb of fictitious negotiations when the only concern that ever was was



cost

We don't admit it even now,,dosen't change the reality that its stupid to fund both pakfa and rafale at the same time(well almost).
Rafale deal should have been signed 2 years,maybe 3 years back and all would have made sense with step wise budget allocation for rafale and then pakfa in 2020 or something.

Now we shot ourselves in the foot,,not the first time though
 
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