• Friday, October 20, 2017

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

Discussion in 'Indian Defence Forum' started by Oscar, Jan 1, 2015.

  1. Bheemsen

    Bheemsen FULL MEMBER

    Messages:
    202
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Ratings:
    +0 / 153 / -7
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    India

    This whole rafale fiasco is going towards insanity , should be stopped asap and other options to be explored.
    Rafale as it is too much overpriced and will put huge dent to national economics and defense budget.
     
  2. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

    Messages:
    4,873
    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2014
    Ratings:
    +185 / 16,721 / -0
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    India
    ++++
    Some information on Source based news on Gripen Bid...
    ++++
    • Sweden PM Stefan Lofven had a small talk with PM NaMo when both met in Mumbai for MII inauguration program. Both were joined by Saab CEO Hakan Bushke.
    • Saab has offered to partner with an Indian company in a JV with Saab investing 49% to develop on the product line Gripen NG further and finish the product with Indian side inputs and requirements.
    • This finished product will commence the final production in India and also plan for a naval variant after that.
    • This product will require a full so called 100% Technology transfer from Sweden to India for which Sweden government will allow Saab as well as provide them with taxation relief as they have done for Gripen project
    • The technology transfer will be for the product line Gripen NG or Gripen E not for earlier models in any manner.
    • PM Lofven and Saab CEO Hakan Bushke has appraised PM NaMo that Indian light fighter requirements is almost 400 and Gripen new product with Indian inputs can parallely supply and meet 50% of this requirement or 200 light fighter jets easily
    • Further to this, PM Lofven has said in front of Saab chief Bushke to PM NaMo that Saab will use G2G route to sell of other products in the field of Surveillance, Electronic Warfare systems, and battle management systems for IAF as well as IN plus an added impetus for ICG for coastal security systems.
    • Also it was said that Saab already has multiple partnership in India as part of making a pyramid supply chain of ensuring component manufacturing in India to sub assembly level and will expand it further once Saab project of Gripen in India starts to ensure Indian MIC makes everything from component to sub assembly to assembly level things
    • These partnership includes renowned names like Pipavav Defence, Bharat Electronics, HAL , Kalyani Strategic Systems and Ashok Leyland. The other smaller players are also there
    ++
    Comments
    Clearly if you see Saab is using the magic trick of this figure of ADA
    [​IMG]

    And rehashing it as their idea for MII.

    What is interesting is first few lines and this supply chain indicates they essentially want LCA MK2 to be replaced completely with Gripen NG with "sweet words" of designing the product further and finish it with Indian inputs before final production.

    it also aims to look at almost 200 units or whatever is 50% of Indian Light fighter jet requirements. It aslo talks with the word "parallel" and trying to say they bring no harm to LCA product line.

    Saab also plans for other product sales but via G2G route

    A question i am wondering is for meeting fleet strength if Saab offer is really considered then essentially MK2 is game over..

    +++

    @Abingdonboy @Vauban @Taygibay @anant_s @Dash @raktaka @randomradio @Picdelamirand-oil @cerberus @Ankit Kumar @MilSpec @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 6
  3. Ankit Kumar

    Ankit Kumar BANNED

    Messages:
    1,539
    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2015
    Ratings:
    +0 / 2,131 / -0
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    India
    Here we need to make tough decisions
    1. Are we serious for an Indian Fighter Jet? If yes then simply tell SAAB , thanks but no thanks.
    2.And are we serious about providing fighter jets to our airforce without any foreign control ?
    3. And last, do we really want foreign technology infusion through the same company whom we buy jets from or we make separate deals and JVs, like JVs with Israel for AESA, Partnering Russia or European nations for engine , etc.

    If we are able to answer these 3 questions.... everything is all right.

    And for one saying Rafale is very costly, so the fact is so is Eurofighter and so is SH.
    Heck even the fly away cost of C/D variant of Gripen is more than 110 million dollars per aircraft without any weapons, training or ToT.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  4. Bheemsen

    Bheemsen FULL MEMBER

    Messages:
    202
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Ratings:
    +0 / 153 / -7
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    India
    Gripen will never be inducted in IAF with LCA program maturing this is strict no go , F18SH or rafale only fit the bill
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  5. GURU DUTT

    GURU DUTT ELITE MEMBER

    Messages:
    14,013
    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2011
    Ratings:
    +7 / 19,814 / -60
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    India
    apart from what paid media traders and there presstitutes got to say on rafale facts are :

    1.Rafale is the best 4.5+ gen fighter out there

    2.Rafale is way too costly and india just might not buy it

    3.SAAB has gone all out to make grippen deal

    4.Sensing a kill both LM (F16) and Boeing (SuperHornet) have also made a very good offer

    5.meaning niether SAAB or Dassult & LM gonna make it cause IAF wants a twin engined medium weight and range fighter for MRCA with SEAD & DEAD in mind and nothing comes close to FA-18 EF/Grolwer for this job


    Meaning clear winner is Boeing with super hornets and growlers ... baaki lagge raho :coffee:
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 4
  6. raktaka

    raktaka BANNED

    Messages:
    910
    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2015
    Ratings:
    +0 / 889 / -1
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    India
    It is not necessary that LCA Mk2 will be replaced entirely by Grippen. Grippen can be part of LCA Mk2 if the deal is structure properly. Given HAL will have no interest in evolving LCA and ADA will be stuck with it, Grippen and its Ecosystem will bring fresh blood into the program.

    However I am not convinced that SAAB can develop an ecosystem in India. I am not sure they themselves have an ecosystem. They depend on US and Europe for their supply chain.

    Finally LCA has minimal export potential. However Grippen Made in India has TREMENDOUS export potential.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  7. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

    Messages:
    4,873
    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2014
    Ratings:
    +185 / 16,721 / -0
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    India
    That's what Even I thought after hearing what source said.. But I also doubt the ecosystem talks and parallel wordings...

    I don't know even know If light fighter potential estimate of 400 and Gripen meeting 50% of it is how far making sense..

    Essentially Boeing or Saab all want minimum 200 orders..

    I don think such big numbers cut through unless of course MK2 program is delayed by a huge margin and Rafale MII also falls apart..

    Sadly everybody is just jumping on one bluff of DM MP
     
  8. GURU DUTT

    GURU DUTT ELITE MEMBER

    Messages:
    14,013
    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2011
    Ratings:
    +7 / 19,814 / -60
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    India
    there is no use left of MK2 if it arrives post 2020 better go with AMCA & PAKFA and for the time bieng go for super hornets and MK1A as they share same enigens and radar
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  9. Perpendicular

    Perpendicular FULL MEMBER

    Messages:
    871
    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2015
    Ratings:
    +1 / 1,541 / -4
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    Australia
    Then we will loose not one but two of our programs i.e LCA MKII followed by AMCA. If we replaced the light fighter requirement from outside.
    Two possibilities that i can think of
    1. Either we have decided that IAF and IN will eventually go for Rafales with big numbers, while using Boeing, saab and others as pressure tactics.
    2. Or we have made up our mind for 36 Rafales only and looking for an alternate twin engine "Make in India" plane that can fit into IN requirements also.

    Or F35 comes into picture somehow.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  10. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

    Messages:
    4,873
    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2014
    Ratings:
    +185 / 16,721 / -0
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    India
    What you are saying is what is in my mind too especially the first point.. A bluff and a pressure tactic

    The second point I had pasted here in Jan 29th 2016 here

    Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 110


    The very next post had few very good lines from my good friend @Abingdonboy
    The F35 coming into picture is way too forward as the platform as of today is not fully matured.. I dont think IAF or IN would be interested atm but perhaps a decade or 15 years later based on some feedback and assessment when they take them on in bilateral exercises, the opinions may change.. For F35 to come to party, its way way too early..

    +++
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  11. raktaka

    raktaka BANNED

    Messages:
    910
    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2015
    Ratings:
    +0 / 889 / -1
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    India
    With India backing SAAB, Grippen can touch the 200 aircraft target by international sales. IAF will not be its sole customer. Much will depend on how the Indian economy grows in the next 5 years.

    DM MP has kept an open mind. One can hardly call that a "bluff".
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  12. Taygibay

    Taygibay PROFESSIONAL

    Messages:
    2,901
    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2010
    Ratings:
    +26 / 5,306 / -0
    Country:
    France
    Location:
    Pakistan
    So fine, as per news, SAAB will halve the numbers of lighter jets with LCA
    and many if not most Indians seem to be OK with that from judging this thread!

    That from the article posted by Parik #2420 :
    • Saab has offered to partner with an Indian company in a JV with Saab investing 49% to develop on the product line Gripen NG further and finish the product with Indian side inputs and requirements.
    • This finished product will commence the final production in India and also plan for a naval variant after that.
    doesn't say a production line in so many words but let's suppose it does since
    the rest of the piece details a supply chain.

    Do you guys realize that the Gripen NG will already have a prod line in Brazil?
    That it had a prod line in Sweden last I checked. That it could loose that one ...
    and end up with 2 production lines outsourced is beyond me but they're Swedes
    known for funky ideas so let's say so, why don't they just sell the company as we
    heard suggested even for Dassault bought by India by the most exalted fanboys?

    But you do get it that what you just bought is a fancy foreign car dealership.
    You will learn to make and fix some stuff on that line but not all and not soon.
    You will have to import precious parts for years as would have happened anyhow.
    Well! Guess what, on Gripen as on F-16, many are US sourced... as on Tejas.

    And a dealership implies dealers, it says so in the name. Meet MIC, he sells everything ...
    Wouldn't it be simpler to forget strategy altogether & just rub up to your master?
    Take the jump and become America's friend to get direct access to the goodies?

    Or, you can keep at what you were doing : try your best in-house and buy precisely
    what you need to import, from various sources, gaining links and not ties?


    Just sayin' Tay.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2016
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  13. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

    Messages:
    4,873
    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2014
    Ratings:
    +185 / 16,721 / -0
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    India
    TBH i always thought like this

    LCA MK1 --- > LCA Mark 1A ---- > LCA Mark 2 ----- > AMCA

    I thought thats the evolutionary mechanism from moving from 4 gen to 4.5th gen to finally 5 th Gen

    A step by step process of developing the ecosystems and our MIC.

    @Taygibay You remember when i said it will take at least a decade based on present LCA program for our MIC to efficiently reach a level of sufficient skill, knowledge and capability based on which we can start utilising such things on our next program

    Thus the above is what i have always felt in my mind.. Not saying i am 100% correct of course..

    To me Saab or LM/Boeing is one and the same.. and you are correct why would Saab want both Brazil and India to have multiple lines of the same product.. Perhaps they know the capability of either brazil is limited or they are just trying to fish more with enticing Indian line or both lines are just plain assembled lines from kits and the main plant from Sweden and US MIC keeps their end rolling by sending these 2 places "Kits" for localised so called assembly or production..

    Edit: I meant based on that ADA diagram of pyramid of pvt sector handling of component manufacturing and semi assembly and assembly level stuff
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2016
    • Thanks Thanks x 2
  14. Perpendicular

    Perpendicular FULL MEMBER

    Messages:
    871
    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2015
    Ratings:
    +1 / 1,541 / -4
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    Australia
    I think that's the general idea among most.
    But at this point in time we are still quite far, even from reaching that level of precision imports. Hence the situation we find ourselves in.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 2
  15. halupridol

    halupridol SENIOR MEMBER

    Messages:
    5,049
    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2013
    Ratings:
    +2 / 6,199 / -29
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    India
    @PARIKRAMA
    more confusion here.
    according to my source,,negotiations r only for 36(+18optional),,all French made,,no TOT rafale or related tech knowhow for lca/amca,,,,issue is price n configuration.
    ,further fighter(licence production aka "make in India") acquisitions will be based on some new behind the door GtG deal ,,might not be rafale.
    also thr is little to no chance of rafale-m,,,if we want emals,nuclear propulsion thn we will have to go wid American fighters.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1