What's new

Dassault Aviation, MBDA yet to fulfil offset obligation under Rafale deal

mike2000 is back

SENIOR MEMBER
Apr 12, 2015
7,708
17
8,495
Country
United Kingdom
Location
United Kingdom
Not clear, but the CAG has asked the Indian MoD to figure it out.

I guess the MoD will ask Dassault and MBDA. Of course, the latter two can stick the finger but India will then cut them out of their next fighter purchase.

In any case, the CAG put some butts on the hot seat.
The french del was the best for India. Else France wouldn't have won it. Moreover, i don't see any power that will sell its core engine tech to another country NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU PAY FOR IT. Since that's a sector every country with a reliable fighter jet engine technology( there a very select few of them anyway which can be counted with one hand)) guards this like their life depended on it. So it's not a French thing. India won't get this from any other power either. Else the Russians would have sold their jet engine tech to India and China long ago. The US wont help them either in this aspect.
So India should forget about buying this one and move ahead with their own homegrown effort. It will take decades but that's the only choice they have,.
AT most there can be some cooperation in some sectors in helping in this endeavour but in no instances will there be a transfer of core engine technology. Same thing will happen between our help for Turkey in Building their engine needed for their TF-X 5th generation fighter jet. They will have to do the core parts themselves and this requires massive investment and time. So they should be prepare to be in it for the long haul since it will easily take decades to mature(that's assuming they will stick to it to the end).
 

Irfan Baloch

SENIOR MODERATOR
Apr 12, 2009
20,035
199
47,083
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
So, in a nutshell - they got shafted...
offset ted actually. French are either corrupt or dishonest failing to fulfill the obligations due to either of the two possibilities.

It’s India’s fault for believing that they would get the keys to the candy shop. Nobody would be that generous with engine technology. At most, anybody would give to the Indians is monkey work. Indians are too easy to fool
I am surprised how they even pretended to handover their (high end) technology secrets over the sale of 36 jets? I mean this technology is their bread and butter. do they plan to dissolve their company after these 36 jets and didnt care if Indian aviation became next aviation giant?
 

MilSpec

ELITE MEMBER
Feb 19, 2011
12,567
36
22,825
Country
India
Location
United States
Reading the comments of veteran members here is and their lack of ability to comprehend the Idea of the term Offset is quite amusing. For the benefit of rest here Offsets does not mean Transfer of Tech or building Rafales in India.

International defence entities are mandated to spend a minimum of 30 per cent of the full contract worth in India by means of procurement of elements or organizing of analysis and improvement amenities. The offset obligations will be made by means of :
>Foreign Direct Investment,
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...enture-with-reliance/articleshow/61276008.cms

>free switch of know-how to Indian companies
[URL unfurl="true"]https://www.indiadefencedialogue.com/2019/10/11/france-offers-to-end-indias-hunt-for-jet-engines/[/URL]

>buy of merchandise manufactured by Indian companies.
 

dbc

PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST
Feb 1, 2009
5,097
13
5,540
Country
France
Location
United States
Reading the comments of veteran members here is and their lack of ability to comprehend the Idea of the term Offset is quite amusing. For the benefit of rest here Offsets does not mean Transfer of Tech or building Rafales in India.

International defence entities are mandated to spend a minimum of 30 per cent of the full contract worth in India by means of procurement of elements or organizing of analysis and improvement amenities. The offset obligations will be made by means of :
>Foreign Direct Investment,
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...enture-with-reliance/articleshow/61276008.cms

>free switch of know-how to Indian companies
[URL unfurl="true"]https://www.indiadefencedialogue.com/2019/10/11/france-offers-to-end-indias-hunt-for-jet-engines/[/URL]

>buy of merchandise manufactured by Indian companies.
Yes the French will diligently transfer the technology for the 110kn jet engines, right after they transfer the tech for making indigenous flying elephants. A highly sophisticated gene splice of the Asiatic elephant and the French Ortolan - the resulting abomination can't be covered by a napkin nor eaten feet first.



From your source:

French engine manufacturer Safran has offered a compete technology transfer to develop the engine and use the offset credits from the Rafale deal and is also tying up with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited NSE 2.67 % (HAL) for transferring manufacturing technology for high end engines.
 
Last edited:

Marker

FULL MEMBER
Dec 31, 2019
983
6
1,248
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Reading the comments of veteran members here is and their lack of ability to comprehend the Idea of the term Offset is quite amusing. For the benefit of rest here Offsets does not mean Transfer of Tech or building Rafales in India.

International defence entities are mandated to spend a minimum of 30 per cent of the full contract worth in India by means of procurement of elements or organizing of analysis and improvement amenities. The offset obligations will be made by means of :
>Foreign Direct Investment,
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...enture-with-reliance/articleshow/61276008.cms

>free switch of know-how to Indian companies
[URL unfurl="true"]https://www.indiadefencedialogue.com/2019/10/11/france-offers-to-end-indias-hunt-for-jet-engines/[/URL]

>buy of merchandise manufactured by Indian companies.
By the way what is free switch of know-how to Indian companies?

“Within the offset contract referring to 36 Medium Multi Position Fight Plane (MMRCA), the distributors M/s Dassault Aviation and M/s MBDA initially proposed to discharge 30 per cent of their offset obligation by providing excessive know-how to DRDO,” the CAG stated.
DRDO wished to acquire technical help for the indigenous improvement of engine (Kaveri) for the Mild Fight Plane. Until date the seller has not confirmed the switch of this know-how,” in response to a press launch issued by CAG.

So please do not act as learned professor. We all know we are talking about Rafale deal 2016-19. According to your CAG. M/s Dassault Aviation and M/s MBDA proposed to discharge 30% of their offset obligation by providing excessive know-how to DRDO.

And it is DRDO's wish to acquire technical help for the indigenous improvement of engine (Kaveri).

Members of PDF whether veteran, elite, senior, professional or full (like myself) are stating that ToT or transfer of know-how for engine is very remote possibility.

Sale deal for 36 Rafale was made with M/s Dassault Aviation and sale deal for its weapons (missiles etc) was made with M/s MBDA. Why any of these companies would provide know-how of jet engine?

Furthermore, Snecma, which provide engine to M/s Dassault Aviation for Rafale, is subsidiary of Safran. Snecma has no direct dealing with India, therefore no such obligations exist.
 

Trailer23

SENIOR MEMBER
Jun 2, 2012
4,144
117
12,669
Country
Pakistan
Location
United Arab Emirates
French are either corrupt or dishonest failing to fulfill the obligations due to either of the two possibilities.
Your assessment could be true, but I see it from a slightly different angle.

The French are Dishonest - while the Indians are Corrupt (let there not be a shadow of doubt).

Perfect match made for one another.

Atleast when India dealt with the Russians, they gave it their all with no loopholes.
 

MilSpec

ELITE MEMBER
Feb 19, 2011
12,567
36
22,825
Country
India
Location
United States
Furthermore, Snecma, which provide engine to M/s Dassault Aviation for Rafale, is subsidiary of Safran. Snecma has no direct dealing with India, therefore no such obligations exist.
By the way what is free switch of know-how to Indian companies?

“Within the offset contract referring to 36 Medium Multi Position Fight Plane (MMRCA), the distributors M/s Dassault Aviation and M/s MBDA initially proposed to discharge 30 per cent of their offset obligation by providing excessive know-how to DRDO,” the CAG stated.
DRDO wished to acquire technical help for the indigenous improvement of engine (Kaveri) for the Mild Fight Plane. Until date the seller has not confirmed the switch of this know-how,” in response to a press launch issued by CAG.

So please do not act as learned professor. We all know we are talking about Rafale deal 2016-19. According to your CAG. M/s Dassault Aviation and M/s MBDA proposed to discharge 30% of their offset obligation by providing excessive know-how to DRDO.

And it is DRDO's wish to acquire technical help for the indigenous improvement of engine (Kaveri).

Members of PDF whether veteran, elite, senior, professional or full (like myself) are stating that ToT or transfer of know-how for engine is very remote possibility.

Sale deal for 36 Rafale was made with M/s Dassault Aviation and sale deal for its weapons (missiles etc) was made with M/s MBDA. Why any of these companies would provide know-how of jet engine?

Furthermore, Snecma, which provide engine to M/s Dassault Aviation for Rafale, is subsidiary of Safran. Snecma has no direct dealing with India, therefore no such obligations exist.
Here is the link, feel free to read, if you have any questions reach out to Safran, it's thier own claim.
 

MilSpec

ELITE MEMBER
Feb 19, 2011
12,567
36
22,825
Country
India
Location
United States
Yes the French will diligently transfer the technology for the 110kn jet engines, right after they transfer the tech for making indigenous flying elephants. A highly sophisticated gene splice of the Asiatic elephant and the French Ortolan - the resulting abomination can't be covered by a napkin nor eaten feet first.



From your source:
Sure the same Safran which runs two JV's with HAL, for Joint Engine development is highly unlikely... Similar Safran subsidiary turbomecca (renamed Safran Helicopter Engines) now actually develops engines with HAL that powers three of its Helicopters.
 

dbc

PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST
Feb 1, 2009
5,097
13
5,540
Country
France
Location
United States
Sure the same Safran which runs two JV's with HAL, for Joint Engine development is highly unlikely... Similar Safran subsidiary turbomecca (renamed Safran Helicopter Engines) now actually develops engines with HAL that powers three of its Helicopters.

..Or, the Saturn AL-31's that are being 'Made in India' ..wink...wink
The French will part with the secret formula for the elixir of eternal youth before they part with the design of a non-existent 110 Kn engine.
 

MilSpec

ELITE MEMBER
Feb 19, 2011
12,567
36
22,825
Country
India
Location
United States
..Or, the Saturn AL-31's that are being 'Made in India' ..wink...wink
The French will part with the secret formula for the elixir of eternal youth before they part with the design of a non-existent 110 Kn engine.
You have the links above, read it, and use your own logic to deduce your conclusions.
 

Marker

FULL MEMBER
Dec 31, 2019
983
6
1,248
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Here is the link, feel free to read, if you have any questions reach out to Safran, it's thier own claim.
But still no deal was finalized.

"As reported by ET, plans to revive the indigenous Kaveri project with the help of French technology stalled over differences in the pricing mechanism for the deal."
 

nahtanbob

ELITE MEMBER
Sep 24, 2018
8,590
-41
2,804
Country
United States
Location
United States
Your assessment could be true, but I see it from a slightly different angle.

The French are Dishonest - while the Indians are Corrupt (let there not be a shadow of doubt).

Perfect match made for one another.

Atleast when India dealt with the Russians, they gave it their all with no loopholes.
the old USSR was not "corrupt". But modern day Russia is like a mafia fiefdom
 

MilSpec

ELITE MEMBER
Feb 19, 2011
12,567
36
22,825
Country
India
Location
United States
But still no deal was finalized.

"As reported by ET, plans to revive the indigenous Kaveri project with the help of French technology stalled over differences in the pricing mechanism for the deal."
Accurate as reported.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 1, Members: 0, Guests: 1)


Top Bottom