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CV-17 Shandong - Type 002 Aircraft Carrier News & Discussions

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China's first homemade carrier Shandong sets out for exercises
By Liu Xuanzun Source: Global Times Published: 2020/9/1 18:38:40

Warship aims to be combat-ready within 2020: experts

Aircraft carrier Shandong. Photo:Xinhua

The Shandong, China's first domestically developed aircraft carrier - the country's second overall - set out from shipyard on Tuesday for military exercises, which will reportedly be held in the Bohai Sea in the next 22 days. Experts expect the carrier to integrate with J-15 fighter jets that were newly produced for it, as it continues to establish actual combat capability, and it will hopefully become combat-ready by the end of 2020.

Two combat-ready aircraft carriers will have strategic significance for China to resist military pressure from countries like the US in the Taiwan Straits and the South China Sea, and potentially from India on China's key maritime transport lanes, experts said.

After a display of fireworks and under the assistance of several tug boats, the Shandong embarked from the Dalian Shipyard in Northeast China's Liaoning Province on Tuesday morning, Hong Kong-based news website wenweipo.com reported on the same day.

The carrier had full-scale models of a J-15 fighter jet and a Z-18 helicopter on its flight deck when it left Dalian, the report said.

The voyage coincided with a notice released by China's Maritime Safety Administration on Monday, which set a navigation restriction in the Bohai Sea from Tuesday to September 22 for an undisclosed military mission.

The restriction zone is in the waters off a Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) Navy Aviation Force base, so putting these factors together, the Shandong's voyage will likely feature integrated training with fighter jets in the sea area, wenweipo.com predicted.

China has been producing new J-15 aircraft carrier-based fighter jets and training new pilots for the Shandong in recent years, and this voyage could see the carrier integrated with those capabilities as a crucial part of its combat preparedness, a Chinese military expert who requested anonymity told the Global Times on Tuesday.

According to photos released by the Shenyang Aircraft Co under the Aviation Industry Corp of China (AVIC), the manufacturer of the J-15, on its website in February, the company was producing new J-15s at that time. A J-15 under assembly was seen getting new, green priming paint instead of the previous yellow one, which indicated that it features a new type of anti-corrosion material for better performance at sea, reports said then.

Beijing-based naval expert Li Jie told the Global Times on Tuesday that after the latest exercise, it will not take the Shandong long to become combat capable, thanks to experience garnered on the country's first carrier, the Liaoning.

Hopefully within this year, the Shandong will conduct another training session, which will eventually give it the basis for initial combat capability, Li predicted.

Graphics: GT

The Shandong was commissioned into the PLA Navy on December 17, 2019 in Sanya, South China's Hainan Province and it returned to the Dalian Shipyard later that month. This is the second time since then that it has embarked on a training voyage. The first time was in the Yellow Sea and Bohai Bay between May 25 and June 17, lasting 23 days, wenweipo.com reported.

"Troops on the aircraft carrier need to achieve independent comprehensive combat capability and integrate into the combat group system as soon as possible," Li Yongxuan, executive officer of the Shandong, told China Central Television during May's training.

Recently, China has been facing military pressure from countries like the US in the Taiwan Straits and the South China Sea, and potentially from India on China's key maritime transport lanes, and Li Jie said that the Shandong, together with the first carrier Liaoning, will become key forces.

Two aircraft carriers can squeeze the island of Taiwan from different angles, and together with the DF-21D and DF-26 anti-ship ballistic missiles of the PLA Rocket Force, they can lock down the island and deny possible US intervention, Li Jie said, noting that they can also play a role in protecting crucial maritime transport lanes like the Strait of Malacca.
 

kungfugymnast

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When Type 003 super carrier with EMALS becomes available and more such carriers being built in full production, all existing J-15A on Type 001 & 002 are likely to transfer to Type 003, 004, 005, etc. Type 001 & 002 by then will only be useful if China managed to come up with STOVL fighters that are suited for ski ramp take off.
 

Deino

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When Type 003 super carrier with EMALS becomes available and more such carriers being built in full production, all existing J-15A on Type 001 & 002 are likely to transfer to Type 003, 004, 005, etc. Type 001 & 002 by then will only be useful if China managed to come up with STOVL fighters that are suited for ski ramp take off.

You don't get it ... the will be no STOVL fighter, at leat not for the foreseeable future
 

Figaro

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When Type 003 super carrier with EMALS becomes available and more such carriers being built in full production, all existing J-15A on Type 001 & 002 are likely to transfer to Type 003, 004, 005, etc. Type 001 & 002 by then will only be useful if China managed to come up with STOVL fighters that are suited for ski ramp take off.
So then what will the 001 and 002 carriers have on them? Nothing? That means the PLAN wasted billions of dollars and years of time on what amounts to be two floating flat tops without any purpose. Besides, the J-15A was designed for STOBAR versus the J-15B/T which is designed for CATOBAR operations. I'm not sure why you think the Chinese have a shortage of J-15s to need to transfer them to other carriers.
 

kungfugymnast

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So then what will the 001 and 002 carriers have on them? Nothing? That means the PLAN wasted billions of dollars and years of time on what amounts to be two floating flat tops without any purpose. Besides, the J-15A was designed for STOBAR versus the J-15B/T which is designed for CATOBAR operations. I'm not sure why you think the Chinese have a shortage of J-15s to need to transfer them to other carriers.
Consider type 001 & 002 are practice for China to perfect carrier building skills & technology. Transferring J-15A to Type 003 or newer carrier in future is not shortage but as part of MLU and not to put to waste.

Imagine when you already have 8 super carriers and STOVL fighters became available. Wouldn't it be practical to assign the Type 001 & 002 to SCS attached to Spratlys division where most of the STOVL fighters will be based at. If China came up with STOVL fighters, it will be larger than F-35B specifically designed for this role. F-35 made big mistake trying to design a plane for USAF, USN, USMC that reduced its efficiency.

Besides, launching J-15A from Type 001 & 002 aren't practical, better convert these 2 carriers into STOVL fighters platform.
 

Figaro

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Consider type 001 & 002 are practice for China to perfect carrier building skills & technology. Transferring J-15A to Type 003 or newer carrier in future is not shortage but as part of MLU and not to put to waste.

Imagine when you already have 8 super carriers and STOVL fighters became available. Wouldn't it be practical to assign the Type 001 & 002 to SCS attached to Spratlys division where most of the STOVL fighters will be based at. If China came up with STOVL fighters, it will be larger than F-35B specifically designed for this role. F-35 made big mistake trying to design a plane for USAF, USN, USMC that reduced its efficiency.

Besides, launching J-15A from Type 001 & 002 aren't practical, better convert these 2 carriers into STOVL fighters platform.
Of course they would be ideal platforms if the PLA had STOVLs. The problem of the matter is they don't and probably will not in the foreseeable future. The move against STOVL was spurred by its very high developmental costs/time (even though it is within the Chinese aviation and engine industry) and the progress of the EM catapults, which offer a way to somewhat bypass the STOVL problem. So in short, unless the PLANAF wants the two carriers to serve no purpose at all, they will continue basing J-15s from there.
Consider type 001 & 002 are practice for China to perfect carrier building skills & technology.
You do not spend a total of a couple billion dollars and a decade just for "practice"; these carriers, including the 001, were meant form the get go as operational carriers. They can and will serve as training carriers but their foremost duty is still to use in operation.
 

kungfugymnast

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Of course they would be ideal platforms if the PLA had STOVLs. The problem of the matter is they don't and probably will not in the foreseeable future. The move against STOVL was spurred by its very high developmental costs/time (even though it is within the Chinese aviation and engine industry) and the progress of the EM catapults, which offer a way to somewhat bypass the STOVL problem. So in short, unless the PLANAF wants the two carriers to serve no purpose at all, they will continue basing J-15s from there.

You do not spend a total of a couple billion dollars and a decade just for "practice"; these carriers, including the 001, were meant form the get go as operational carriers. They can and will serve as training carriers but their foremost duty is still to use in operation.
China placed nuclear powered carriers, air force and nevy fighters on top priorities first to counter dangerous US threat at the moment. STOVL fighter programme will start after stealth bomber (heavy fighter bomber) consecutively or concurrently.

It won't be hard for China because the same Yakovlev engineers that made F-35B STOVL could do the same for China. Single engine STOVL fighter most likely unless China wanted to try world's first twin engine STOVL large fighters. China would invest more into STOVL fighters because it could land on simple piece of flatlands should China decided to engage US in Pacific Ocean war. Heavy Tiltrotor is in China's mind too.

R&D involves trial and error involving billions to trillions. US made lots of fighters, choppers, ships in 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's that were short-lived spending much to contribute to technology perfection. You can see the same on J-10 development from A to B to C. J-10B built in small numbers and perfected further to J-10C that will go mass production. Even J-20B today is not finalized and subject to further modifications later in J-20C depending on how soon they could perfect the technology.
 

Figaro

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China placed nuclear powered carriers, air force and nevy fighters on top priorities first to counter dangerous US threat at the moment. STOVL fighter programme will start after stealth bomber (heavy fighter bomber) consecutively or concurrently.

It won't be hard for China because the same Yakovlev engineers that made F-35B STOVL could do the same for China. Single engine STOVL fighter most likely unless China wanted to try world's first twin engine STOVL large fighters. China would invest more into STOVL fighters because it could land on simple piece of flatlands should China decided to engage US in Pacific Ocean war. Heavy Tiltrotor is in China's mind too.

R&D involves trial and error involving billions to trillions. US made lots of fighters, choppers, ships in 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's that were short-lived spending much to contribute to technology perfection. You can see the same on J-10 development from A to B to C. J-10B built in small numbers and perfected further to J-10C that will go mass production. Even J-20B today is not finalized and subject to further modifications later in J-20C depending on how soon they could perfect the technology.
Simply put it the Chinese have decided to not go to the STOVL route. Plain and simple. That is why the 076 tender included EM catapults, which would obviously not be necessary should a STOVL be in the pipeline. The fact of the matter is beyond several research papers around 2010, there has been no additional signs that the Chinese are pursuing STOVL; otherwise we would have heard about such efforts a long time ago. Regarding the F-35, the design to make the STOVL variant ultimately limited the capabilities of the F-35A and F-35C versions because all three wanted to share the common design, which proved to be a very large obstacle thanks to STOVL.
 

UKBengali

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China placed nuclear powered carriers, air force and nevy fighters on top priorities first to counter dangerous US threat at the moment. STOVL fighter programme will start after stealth bomber (heavy fighter bomber) consecutively or concurrently.

It won't be hard for China because the same Yakovlev engineers that made F-35B STOVL could do the same for China. Single engine STOVL fighter most likely unless China wanted to try world's first twin engine STOVL large fighters. China would invest more into STOVL fighters because it could land on simple piece of flatlands should China decided to engage US in Pacific Ocean war. Heavy Tiltrotor is in China's mind too.

R&D involves trial and error involving billions to trillions. US made lots of fighters, choppers, ships in 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's that were short-lived spending much to contribute to technology perfection. You can see the same on J-10 development from A to B to C. J-10B built in small numbers and perfected further to J-10C that will go mass production. Even J-20B today is not finalized and subject to further modifications later in J-20C depending on how soon they could perfect the technology.
One correction - it was UK engineers from Rolls Royce that made the F-35B STOVL with tech from the Harrier Jump Jet.
 

Deino

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One correction - it was UK engineers from Rolls Royce that made the F-35B STOVL with tech from the Harrier Jump Jet.

Nope ... RR assisted development of the STOVL engine/nozzle, but it was NOT "UK engineers from Rolls Royce that made the F-35B STOVL" and surely not "with tech from the Harrier Jump Jet."



But can we come back to the topic? Neither the F-35B nor development of a Chinese STOVL type is relevant to the current Shandong and to think the CV-17 will become a STOVL-carrier after introduction of the 003 and/or 004 is plain ridiculous. :hitwall: :crazy:
 
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zhxy

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China can develop two forces at the same time, the blue and the red army.

Blue with aircraft carrier (STOVL)

Red with aircraft Carrier (without STOVL)

Next, the two forces will battle each other in drills, analyze results, then improve technology, develop new combat theories.

The cost for training green troops and developing - building two aircraft carriers with STOVL technology is about 10-12 billion USD. This is the amount equivalent to only 1 US aircraft carrier, due to cheaper labor costs in China and higher labor productivity.
 

Deino

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So being involved means for you they did it alone and without RR, GE would have failed?

But please stop this off topic stuff here.
 

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