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Crotale

Gryphon

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The Key problem is :"Do you need S-300?"

If you needed it, the S-300 is not expensive. Take turkey for example four S-400 units at a cost of $2.5 billion.

2.5 billion USD may be an affordable price for countries like Turkey, but not for Pakistan. Pakistan is poor and the rulers make it poorer.

Of course we need it but we have political issues at the moment .

While Army paid for LY-80 LOMADS (acquisition cost < 1 billion USD) from its service budget and development funds, PA or PAF may not afford off-the-shelf purchase of long range air defence systems without signing up for loans.
The roadmap should be development of an indigenous long range air defence system, comprising the vertical launch unit mounted on TEL vehicle, canisters and missiles equipped with active radar homing seeker, command and control, data links, power supply, etc. Long range AESA radars could be purchased off-the-shelf from OEM's like Leonardo.

This approach will save Pakistani tax-payer money from being wasted on funding ridiculously expensive weapons development programs of other countries and develop the local industry. It must be Pakistan first and then the rest.
 

Tps43

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2.5 billion USD may be an affordable price for countries like Turkey, but not for Pakistan. Pakistan is poor and the rulers make it poorer.



While Army paid for LY-80 LOMADS (acquisition cost < 1 billion USD) from its service budget and development funds, PA or PAF may not afford off-the-shelf purchase of long range air defence systems without signing up for loans.
The roadmap should be development of an indigenous long range air defence system, comprising the vertical launch unit mounted on TEL vehicle, canisters and missiles equipped with active radar homing seeker, command and control, data links, power supply, etc. Long range AESA radars could be purchased off-the-shelf from OEM's like Leonardo.

This approach will save Pakistani tax-payer money from being wasted on funding ridiculously expensive weapons development programs of other countries and develop the local industry. It must be Pakistan first and then the rest.
Correct And For that Ideal Platform are crotales/FM 90 as they are already in every service , This can give Pakistan good experience just like what mushak gave to PAF .
P.S= I like ur writing style.
 

farooqbhai007

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Dear 10 sqn's are fixed and spada wont replace crotales as they were newly raised units or Sam converted units . Chaklala and masroor dont have them but Interesting thing is that where ever we have our nuclear facilities anywhere in pakistan Crotales are giving them cover .
Libiyan ones were packed and unused I personally know a sqn which uses them and they are on 5 min standby position.
Another thing which I would like to tell is that the major communication setup was upgraded in 2011 - 2012 and now we have MCP setup for crotales .
Crotales are here for 1 more decade atleast but if paf and thales agree for NG subsystems we can see them till 2 more decades.
dont think so PAF tried to upgrade the sub systems to NG standard , but the Saudis did this approach and it seems to work ,
Saudis took their 6 cell Shaheen Systems ( Tracked version of Crotale ) and took the turret of the chassis and then put the Shaheen turret onto a Crotale NG towed chassis
1639328291306.png
 

farooqbhai007

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Had some chat with PAF dudes at IDEAS EXPO, here's what is ongoing with Crotale while keeping in mind the current funding status that PAF has. (If economy improves situation will likely be different).
The Crotale battery are undergoing a very comprehensive upgrade. After the upgrade the only thing that will be same as un-upgraded version will be the radar antenna itself and the launch vehicle's rotating launcher module itself. So basically PAF is upgrading Radar unit (Acquisition Unit) by replacing all components except the radar antenna and putting that radar antenna combined with new electronics and operator console onto a new 4x4 hino truck chassis. And the radar antenna is fitted onto a mast so it can be retracted when needed. Neat piece of equipment they built. For firing unit they are doing the same, the missile launch module will be placed onto a new chassis and will likely be getting new missiles. For now the Radar unit upgrade has been rolled out but firing unit upgrade is still underway and prototype yet to be made.
In my opinion what i think can change if they get more funding is that PAF can basically get a newer AESA radar integrated plus ofcourse build more units of those locally given the level of expertise they are already at.
 

Bilal.

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Had some chat with PAF dudes at IDEAS EXPO, here's what is ongoing with Crotale while keeping in mind the current funding status that PAF has. (If economy improves situation will likely be different).
The Crotale battery are undergoing a very comprehensive upgrade. After the upgrade the only thing that will be same as un-upgraded version will be the radar antenna itself and the launch vehicle's rotating launcher module itself. So basically PAF is upgrading Radar unit (Acquisition Unit) by replacing all components except the radar antenna and putting that radar antenna combined with new electronics and operator console onto a new 4x4 hino truck chassis. And the radar antenna is fitted onto a mast so it can be retracted when needed. Neat piece of equipment they built. For firing unit they are doing the same, the missile launch module will be placed onto a new chassis and will likely be getting new missiles. For now the Radar unit upgrade has been rolled out but firing unit upgrade is still underway and prototype yet to be made.
In my opinion what i think can change if they get more funding is that PAF can basically get a newer AESA radar integrated plus ofcourse build more units of those locally given the level of expertise they are already at.
All these subsystems are indigenous?
 

Super Falcon

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NG version is my love , Crotales are one of few battle proven sam's and As far as my knowledge goes Paf had plans to upgrade it's crotales to 5000 or NG generation.
ome are still ex libiyans 2000 and others are 4000 .
There are 10 SAM sqn's in PAF out of them 5 are still crotales with every sqn having ops Flight in different VP's.
There is a misconception that Spada came and crotale got out of active services this was not the case basically there were many MOU's sqn which were converted to SCU's and sqn's were re organized.
Crotale NG Short Range Air Defence System
FREQUENCY
S-band pulse Doppler radar
MODES
Sectored surveillance, search on the move
IFF
Built-in IFF antenna
RANGE
20km

ALTITUDE COVERAGE
0 to 5,000m
ECCM FEATURES
Low side lobes<br />Frequency agility<br />Pulse compression<br />CFAR<br />Strobe on jam
FREQUENCY
Ku-band TWT single-pulse Doppler radar tracking radar
BEAM WIDTH
1.20&#176;
RANGE
Up to 30km
ECCM FEATURES
Low side lobes<br />Frequency agility<br />Pulse compression<br />CFAR<br />Jammer tracking
TURRET WEIGHT
Approximately 4t
TURRET DRIVE
Electrical
DRIVE SPEED AZIMUTH
5 radians a second
DRIVE SPEED ELEVATION
1 radian per second
RANGE
Up to 19km
WIDE FOV
8.1&#176; in azimuth and 5.4&#176; in elevation
NARROW FOV
2.7&#176; in azimuth and 1.8&#176; in elevation
RANGE
Up to 15km
FIELD OF VIEW
2.4&#176; azimuth and 18&#176; elevation
INFRARED (IR) LOCALISER
Mounted below the CCD camera for missile gathering
SPEED
Mach 3.5+
MANOEUVRABILITY, LOAD FACTORS
Up to 35g
TARGET RANGE
11km
TARGET CEILING
Over 6,000m
GUIDANCE
Command to Line of Sight (CLOS) guidance
WARHEAD
Focused blast and fragmentation warhead
FUSE
RF proximity fuse
LETHAL BLAST RADIUS
8m
INTERCEPTION TIME
10.3 seconds for target distance of 8km
The missions of the system are in front-line armoured brigade defence, permanent or semi-permanent site defence and area defence against air threats, such as fixed-wing aircraft, attack helicopters, cruise missiles, tactical missiles and saturation attacks with stand-off weapons released from aircraft and helicopters.
The Crotale NG system provides air situation and threat assessment, extended detection range, identification friend or foe (IFF), multi-target detection plus automated acquisition, tracking and engagement and all weather operation.
"Crotale NG is an all-weather short-range air defence missile system."
Crotale NG entered production in 1990 and is in service with the Finnish Army (20 systems), and the French Air Force (12 shelter-mounted systems) and Navy.
Thales signed a contract with Greece in June 1999 for 11 Crotale NG systems, nine for the air force and two for the navy. The system has also been sold to Saudi Arabia and Oman.
In February 2000, Thales and Samsung were jointly awarded the contract for the Republic of Korea Pegasus (Chun Ma) K-SAM (Korean Surface-to-Air Missile) programme. The contract called for the production of 48 Crotale NG surveillance and fire control systems. Samsung Thales was awarded a follow-on contract in December 2003.
Thales is developing the Crotale mk3 system. With the new Shikra 3D multibeam surveillance radar (derived from the Thales Netherlands SMART-S mk2 search radar), Crotale mk3 forms Thales’s multishield system designed to protect sensitive sites and theatres of operation. Crotale mk3 began flight testing in January 2008.
A data exchange capability provides integration of the Crotale NG into a global air defence scheme. A platoon of four Crotale NG units can be operated in coordinated mode using the automated computer-to-computer data exchange. According to the threat assessment and the relative positions of the four units, the target is engaged by the unit in the best position.
FM 90 already replaced them for point blank defence
 

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