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Could Italy’s Selex ES Equip the JF-17 Block-III?

satishkumarcsc

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Well There were talks for Selex long time back even in 2006 if I could remember right. But will the Americans allow integration of their missiles to this radar? Will PAF buy the Meteor and the ASRAAM to be fitted to it?

The Vixen is a very good radar according to me. This will increase the price of the JF 17 atleast by 30%.
 

My-Analogous

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Well Block 3 is a bit far away , so we have chance to evaluate an ideal match.
Ideally having options for both is a great feature

We still have not even inducted 50 Block 2 planes so talking about Block 3 is far away
Not far way and only two to three years from now one. It is good time to plan
 

MastanKhan

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After all these efforts we will see JF-17 export news I think.
Hi,

I think that paf jumped the gun ( in a good way and a bad way ) when they offered the JF17 for sale to other countries.

The good thing happened was they found out that a 2 seater is a necessity---and the buyer wants to see the top notch package available for the aircraft to make a decision---so they are in the process of rectifying the concerns.

The bad thing that came out was the negative publicity---.

Now remember---this is the first time pakistan has found itself to be at the producing end of a manufacturing process---and that too of a fighter aircraft that could face aircraft like the M2k's SU30s Mig29 Rafales etc etc etc----.

So---by default---there would have been certain shortcomings and that is the nature of the game---.

Certain compromises may have been made on the size of the aircraft thinking that things might work out---and many other issues that I have discussed over the years came and effected the program.

Like deal making and bargaining and marketing----which to paf's utter dismay they found out that it was not their cup of tea---they floundered badly.

They had to go back to the planning board and re-assess the situation.

The most important failure to address was the pricing----that is where the paf and its defense ministry totally destroyed the legitimacy of this aircraft. They offered it for too little.

The JF17 market was for those countries who could not get the F16 or Gripen---or even if they could---they could get only a very limited number of options in weaponry and EW suite.

So---paf had the total market to itself in the single engine aircraft industry for those nations---but for a lack of planning and understanding of how to market---they fell on their faces.

Paf did not know that they have to sell the SIZZLE----but they kept selling the steak.

The JF17 was not a small endeavor taken by paf---. This project needed a massive amount of courage and ballz to move forward and paf showed that they had the ability and capability to do the task---.

And that courage brought in bravado and bravado made them make bad decisions---that I have talked about---visavis---marketing---( if I can do this---I can do that as well----which is---if I can defy death and be a fighter pilot---then sales jobs is nothing---I can do that too ).

At a car dealership---salesmen sell cars----the service dept does not---the technicians do not---and there is a reason for that.

A salesman sells a car that a customer desires at your dealership---offers the vehicle with the payment package and then let the customer decide if they can afford it or if they need to come down to something less expensive.

But---a technician or a service advisor would sell something that they think is right for the customer---and the customer may balk---.

A professional air force like the Paf already knows what the Nigerian air force needs---or the Algerian or the Morroccan or the Myanmar or the Sri Lankan or the Saudi or the Emirati or the Egyptian air forces need---.

But it is not the need that sells the machine all the time---it is the toys and gizmos and extras that come along with it.

Last but not the least----the paf is having a hard time fulfilling its own orders at this time---and to market this aircraft for sale is a tough hill to climb.
 
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MastanKhan

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I agree with you a more capable JF-17 will not only be more useful for PAF but will increase its export potential many times despite the higher price tag. It will be in different league altogether and would still be a cheaper option.
Hi,

For me---it is simple math---. You have the right combination---now build on it. That is the best way forward.

Chinese EW warfare suite is not going to stay stagnant---Italians are willing and the upcoming Turks as well.

So---if paf goes for EFT for let us say----36 aircraft then they can seek a contract for equipping the JF17 as well. It is basically a give and take----make a bundle---make a package deal.

Paf already missed out on a Rafale / Thales / JF17 package deal.

If I have a say in things---that is what I would do---package it up---. That is what works the best---to get some---you have to give some.

@Bilal Khan 777 If paf goes for the SU35---then what is in it for the JF17---from the russians

As compared to if the paf goes for the EFT and what is in it for the JF17---from the Italians / partners.

If it was my decision the EFT and a EW warfare suite package for the JF17 would be a prefered deal---even if it was a billion dollars more---because the end result would be to the liking of the paf and pakistan.
 

war&peace

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Hi,

For me---it is simple math---. You have the right combination---now build on it. That is the best way forward.

Chinese EW warfare suite is not going to stay stagnant---Italians are willing and the upcoming Turks as well.

So---if paf goes for EFT for let us say----36 aircraft then they can seek a contract for equipping the JF17 as well. It is basically a give and take----make a bundle---make a package deal.

Paf already missed out on a Rafale / Thales / JF17 package deal.

If I have a say in things---that is what I would do---package it up---. That is what works the best---to get some---you have to give some.

@Bilal Khan 777 If paf goes for the SU35---then what is in it for the JF17---from the russians

As compared to if the paf goes for the EFT and what is in it for the JF17---from the Italians / partners.

If it was my decision the EFT and a EW warfare suite package for the JF17 would be a prefered deal---even if it was a billion dollars more---because the end result would be to the liking of the paf and pakistan.
Isn't the right time that PAF gets out the fixation with IAF over the acquisition of the next gen platform since imho it is causing unnecessary delays. EFT deal will be much better than Su-35 for the development prospects of JF-17 as we can negotiate the whole package and of course the western avionics are considered worldwide better than what Russian can offer us currently or even in near future, thus the sales potential goes up and it will offset the extra costs incurred in the longer run. However it may also happen that we get both EFT (2-3 sdrns) and Su-35s (1-2 sqdrns) since prospects of getting a good deal with Russians are getting better especially with recent development. And PAF can offer two different configurations of JF-17s one with western avionics and the other with Russian avionics at two different price points and address a wider audience by providing a single platform that offers a totally unique opportunity to the airforces that they can select either one of them or a mix with depending on their budget and still have to deal with the same airframe for maintenance but with different capabilities. I may sound crazy and but I think it is doable.
 
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MastanKhan

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Isn't the right time that PAF gets out the fixation with IAF over the acquisition of the next gen platform since imho it is causing unnecessary delays. EFT deal will be much better than Su-35 for the development prospects of JF-17 as we can negotiate the whole package and of course the western avionics are considered worldwide better than what Russian can offer us currently or even in near future, thus the sales potential goes up and it will offset the extra costs incurred in the longer run. However it may also happen that we get both EFT (2-3 sdrns) and Su-35s (1-2 sqdrns) since prospects of getting a good deal with Russians are getting better especially with recent development. And PAF can offer two different configurations of JF-17s one with western avionics and the other with Russian avionics at two different price points and address a wider audience by providing a single platform that offers a totally unique opportunity to the airforces that they can select either one of them or a mix with depending on their budget and still have to deal with the same airframe for maintenance but with different capabilities. I may sound crazy and but I think it is doable.
Hi,

It is true that the paf has wasted enough time waiting for what the iaf would get---. That was not a very brilliant planning.

If the paf goes for EFT---then rather going for the SU35---I would rather look for the J16 or the JH7B----as a support aircraft.

The JF17 would always have the bone of contention for a chinese EW suite or a european EW suite---.

The chinese would fight for it---and so would the Italians---.

Now---once the russians see the available funds---it would be tough to stop them as well.
 

war&peace

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Hi,

It is true that the paf has wasted enough time waiting for what the iaf would get---. That was not a very brilliant planning.

If the paf goes for EFT---then rather going for the SU35---I would rather look for the J16 or the JH7B----as a support aircraft.

The JF17 would always have the bone of contention for a chinese EW suite or a european EW suite---.

The chinese would fight for it---and so would the Italians---.

Now---once the russians see the available funds---it would be tough to stop them as well.
Because what I see a better economy with completion all this CPEC projects and especially after the ouster of the corrupt govt which is imminent and if we have sufficient funds, I don't any other significant hurdle other than our own unwillingness to acquire multiple platforms. I consider EFT more reliable in terms of engine and flight hours between the overhauls than Su-35. However Su-35 can be good option for air wing of Navy.
 

CHI RULES

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Hi,

I think that paf jumped the gun ( in a good way and a bad way ) when they offered the JF17 for sale to other countries.

The good thing happened was they found out that a 2 seater is a necessity---and the buyer wants to see the top notch package available for the aircraft to make a decision---so they are in the process of rectifying the concerns.

The bad thing that came out was the negative publicity---.

Now remember---this is the first time pakistan has found itself to be at the producing end of a manufacturing process---and that too of a fighter aircraft that could face aircraft like the M2k's SU30s Mig29 Rafales etc etc etc----.

So---by default---there would have been certain shortcomings and that is the nature of the game---.

Certain compromises may have been made on the size of the aircraft thinking that things might work out---and many other issues that I have discussed over the years came and effected the program.

Like deal making and bargaining and marketing----which to paf's utter dismay they found out that it was not their cup of tea---they floundered badly.

They had to go back to the planning board and re-assess the situation.

The most important failure to address was the pricing----that is where the paf and its defense ministry totally destroyed the legitimacy of this aircraft. They offered it for too little.

The JF17 market was for those countries who could not get the F16 or Gripen---or even if they could---they could get only a very limited number of options in weaponry and EW suite.

So---paf had the total market to itself in the single engine aircraft industry for those nations---but for a lack of planning and understanding of how to market---they fell on their faces.

Paf did not know that they have to sell the SIZZLE----but they kept selling the steak.

The JF17 was not a small endeavor taken by paf---. This project needed a massive amount of courage and ballz to move forward and paf showed that they had the ability and capability to do the task---.

And that courage brought in bravado and bravado made them make bad decisions---that I have talked about---visavis---marketing---( if I can do this---I can do that as well----which is---if I can defy death and be a fighter pilot---then sales jobs is nothing---I can do that too ).

At a car dealership---salesmen sell cars----the service dept does not---the technicians do not---and there is a reason for that.

A salesman sells a car that a customer desires at your dealership---offers the vehicle with the payment package and then let the customer decide if they can afford it or if they need to come down to something less expensive.

But---a technician or a service advisor would sell something that they think is right for the customer---and the customer may balk---.

A professional air force like the Paf already knows what the Nigerian air force needs---or the Algerian or the Morroccan or the Myanmar or the Sri Lankan or the Saudi or the Emirati or the Egyptian air forces need---.

But it is not the need that sells the machine all the time---it is the toys and gizmos and extras that come along with it.

Last but not the least----the paf is having a hard time fulfilling its own orders at this time---and to market this aircraft for sale is a tough hill to climb.
Sir it is marketing era and sales ended decades back so PAF should learn that on the other hand Marketing can be done by Marketing Pros not by PAF engineers/officals.
 

MastanKhan

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Sir it is marketing era and sales ended decades back so PAF should learn that on the other hand Marketing can be done by Marketing Pros not by PAF engineers/officals.
Hi,

Marketing and sales go hand in hand---marketing get the interest of the client up and gets him to your door step---from there you sales and technical take over.
 
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princefaisal

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Problem of the JF--17 engine will solve after the induction of any fighter, either Su35 or Ef2000. However quality of western avionics and engine would be better for future JF-17 blocks. Similarly Middle East countries have already switched to Ef2000 and Rafale.
 

MastanKhan

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Problem of the JF--17 engine will solve after the induction of any fighter, either Su35 or Ef2000. However quality of western avionics and engine would be better for future JF-17 blocks. Similarly Middle East countries have already switched to Ef2000 and Rafale.

Hi,

The Rafale and the EFT are top tier aircraft---there is a tremendous market for the second tier right now---.

A type of aircraft that can come as close to the rafale and EFT and that can be flown at a very low operating cost throughout the year so the the pilots get the flying hours and the cost of owning the Rafales and EFT is reduced.

I don't think that paf anticipated that it---but that is the market for the JF 17 in the middle east---.
 

Khafee

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Hi,

The Rafale and the EFT are top tier aircraft---there is a tremendous market for the second tier right now---.

A type of aircraft that can come as close to the rafale and EFT and that can be flown at a very low operating cost throughout the year so the the pilots get the flying hours and the cost of owning the Rafales and EFT is reduced.

I don't think that paf anticipated that it---but that is the market for the JF 17 in the middle east---.
Try explaining that to self-haters with inferiority complexes
 

SherDil

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Selex ES had already worked with PAF on F-7s. Good to see tham back if PAF go for it.
 

Stephen Cohen

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Hi,

The Rafale and the EFT are top tier aircraft---there is a tremendous market for the second tier right now---.

A type of aircraft that can come as close to the rafale and EFT and that can be flown at a very low operating cost throughout the year so the the pilots get the flying hours and the cost of owning the Rafales and EFT is reduced.

I don't think that paf anticipated that it---but that is the market for the JF 17 in the middle east---.
The Best Second Tier Aircraft Right Now is MIG 29 SMT
Which Egypt and Myanmar Bought

It is still in production -- Good range -- speed -- TWR -- New Generation Radar
and now has become Multi role too
 

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