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Concepts / Ideas for the Pakistan Navy

JawadKKhan

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IMO, an asset which greatly increase fleet reach, its offense / defense, strike capabilities and power projection. I envision 10K ton destroyer with extended deck to hold 2-3 helicopters.

See below old Japanese destroyer with extended deck, PN's should be newer.
DDH-144-JDS-Kurama-photo-058a.jpg



Why a destroyer and with extended deck:

Reasons:
1) A Destroyer because of its size can hold larger / longer range missiles. It has more space available so more future upgrades possible. Kind of future proof.
2) Extended deck, because helis in upcoming decades can provide massive capabilities + ability to employ future Vtols / UCAVs.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) , Great topic. On the other note, Navy's official website is total crap. I have a suggestion, how about add organized HD picture gallery on Quwa or here for navy's ships and other assets with details.

Thanks!
 

Akh1112

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IMO, an asset which greatly increase fleet reach, its offense / defense, strike capabilities and power projection. I envision 10K ton destroyer with extended deck to hold 2-3 helicopters.

See below old Japanese destroyer with extended deck, PN's should be newer.
View attachment 796913


Why a destroyer and with extended deck:

Reasons:
1) A Destroyer because of its size can hold larger / longer range missiles. It has more space available so more future upgrades possible. Kind of future proof.
2) Extended deck, because helis in upcoming decades can provide massive capabilities + ability to employ future Vtols / UCAVs.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) , Great topic. On the other note, Navy's official website is total crap. I have a suggestion, how about add organized HD picture gallery on Quwa or here for navy's ships and other assets with details.

Thanks!
Who are we projecting power to? We share land borders with our primary adversaries
 

JawadKKhan

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Who are we projecting power to? We share land borders with our primary adversaries
To them primarily! The destroyer which can host multiple ASW helis or other couple of air assets on board can increase Navy's range of engagement. Plus as it could employ longer range missiles, so its basically a moving silo. Secondly, power projection is the key role for Navies. Even if the primary adversary is next door. The capabilities can give many regional political benefits.

Ofcourse, we are not at the position to project power globally, but at regional level, we do have a need for larger ships against massive sized indian navy ships
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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Who are we projecting power to? We share land borders with our primary adversaries
I can see the PN investing in LPD-type ships in the long term. It wouldn't be for power-projection in our region, but to be more involved in multinational initiatives and coalition activities around the world. LPDs can be great HADR assets, for example.

I think something like the Kalaat Beni Abbes (built by Italy's Fincantieri) can be a good fit:

1637959037017.png


It supports 3 helicopters, 2 RHIBs for SOFs, 15 armoured vehicles, 440 soldiers, and 60 hospital beds.

However, just to caveat it, LPDs are a 'nice to have.' The PN wouldn't go there until its A2/AD is at an optimal level. So, before we even get to LPDs, the PN will invest in SSPs, SWATs, LRMPAs, ASW helicopters, and ISR capabilities.

Moreover, I think the bulk of future surface warship procurement would run through the Jinnah-class frigate. That will likely form the mainstay in the long-term (by bringing the major surface vessel fleet to 20-25+ and, in time, replacing the F-22Ps). I don't think the PN would need a larger ship. Yes, buying a few could be a way to introduce a long-range SAM to the fleet, but I think the PN will be able to buy more compact solutions (e.g., SIPER) that can fit in the Jinnah-class.
 

JawadKKhan

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I can see the PN investing in LPD-type ships in the long term. It wouldn't be for power-projection in our region, but to be more involved in multinational initiatives and coalition activities around the world. LPDs can be great HADR assets, for example.

I think something like the Kalaat Beni Abbes (built by Italy's Fincantieri) can be a good fit:

View attachment 796914

It supports 3 helicopters, 2 RHIBs for SOFs, 15 armoured vehicles, 440 soldiers, and 60 hospital beds.

However, just to caveat it, LPDs are a 'nice to have.' The PN wouldn't go there until its A2/AD is at an optimal level. So, before we even get to LPDs, the PN will invest in SSPs, SWATs, LRMPAs, ASW helicopters, and ISR capabilities.
Yep totally agreed, my assumption of extended deck destroyer is also based on assumption when A2/AD is at optimal level. after 4 Tughrils & 4 Baburs, was hoping Jinnah would be a much heavier class, but it doesn't seems to be. However, this LPD is good info you shared. I wasn't aware of such PN plans.
 

JawadKKhan

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BTW, (correct me, if am wrong) IMO, even showing the capability at multinational initiatives and coalition activities or assets to deploy at global humanitarian causes is also sort of power projection. Maybe its more necessary for us, when the rival country is getting ready and is already showing off its influence / ships at IOR / middle east etc. The soft power can influence relationships. Intentions of our next-door are clear in this regard, we might require to counter those in this regard.
 

Super Falcon

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Pn making big blunder buying smaller corvetes 4 from turkey 4 from holland was wastage and now jinnah shoulh have bought destroyers

Jinnah class mock up model shows limited fire pwer
Type 052D should have been invested for superior we and sensors
 

JawadKKhan

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Pn making big blunder buying smaller corvetes 4 from turkey 4 from holland was wastage and now jinnah shoulh have bought destroyers

Jinnah class mock up model shows limited fire pwer
Type 052D should have been invested for superior we and sensors
hmm, I won't say wastage. As PN badly and quickly needed more assets. The babur corvettes are stealthy as well.
However, you are totally right about destroyer. The term bigger is better is true for warships. More firepower, capability for heavier weapon payloads, more kind of weapons, more sensors, powerful radars, more space for future upgrades and these serve long in service. These can host more countermeasure systems as well. Even if it's hit by a missile probably chances of survival of destroyer is higher then lighter ships.

yep, it would have been a delight if instead of 4 Jinnah frigates those be 2 TF2000 destroyers. But, in the end it all depends upon PN's combat doctrine. As mentioned by Bilal, probably once they have enough numbers in small sized vessels, then they eventually will move towards heavier ships.

In contrast, we are seeing lot of 6K ton + ships being added in navies around the world. IMO, PN's interest in quantity but lighter assets is because for aggressive roles they intend to use submarine force and surface combatants being stick to EEZ.
 

Abid123

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Pakistan Navy should replace all 4 Zulfiqar class frigates by the end of this decade.
 

JawadKKhan

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Pakistan Navy should replace all 4 Zulfiqar class frigates by the end of this decade.
Unlikely, as PN doing upgrades on these. No idea what type of upgrades are those. IMO, if possible to replace FM90 with even 16 cell VLS can be a great boost to these ship. Plus maybe its possible to create more space for weapons / sensors in the middle section near engine exhaust / SSM launchers.

Notice below Algerian El-Fateh frigate, almost similar to F-22P but with much more clean design. There are no exposed pathways from Hangar to bridge area. Those pathways are covered creating more room at the roof for multiple ASW rockets or defensive equipment etc. The side pathways or side galleries whatever you call it in F-22Ps looks like as its for sight seeing lol, it 's not only look cluttered, but it can also create an unwanted entry point (it happened once, they tried before)

Algerian El-Fateh frigate:
C28A-El-Fateh921.jpg

adhafer2.jpg

adhafer22.jpg



PN Zulfiqar class

ad91f254-0e4f-4ec5-bf0c-09fe21407c81.jpeg
 
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Akh1112

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Unlikely, as PN doing upgrades on these. No idea what type of upgrades are those. IMO, if possible to replace FM90 with even 16 cell VLS can be a great boost to these ship. Plus maybe its possible to create more space for weapons / sensors in the middle section near engine exhaust / SSM launchers.

Notice below Algerian El-Fateh frigate, almost similar to F-22P but with much more clean design. There are no exposed pathways from Hangar to bridge area. Those pathways are covered creating more room at the roof for multiple ASW rockets or defensive equipment etc. The side pathways or side galleries whatever you call it in F-22Ps looks like as its for sight seeing lol, it 's not only look cluttered, but it can also create an unwanted entry point (it happened once, they tried before)

Algerian El-Fateh frigate:
View attachment 797094
View attachment 797100
View attachment 797108


PN Zulfiqar class

View attachment 797095
it’s based off of the 056 thats why
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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it’s based off of the 056 thats why
The F-22P and el-Fateh-class are both based on Type-053H3. It was a dated design taken to its max from a capability standpoint. Interestingly, the F-22P was going to be similar to the el-Fateh, but the PN opted to scale it back. It was probably a cost-saving measure, but I think the PN saw F-22P's ceiling and didn't want to invest too much into it.

F-22P in 2002.
1638043974715.png


Fun fact: The PN got the F-22P at the tail-end of the PLAN's Type 053H3 production. Ironically, the PN is doing the same thing with the Type 054A/P.
 

JawadKKhan

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F-22P in 2002.
1638043974715.png
Damn, this 2002 model looks more modern then what we got eventually. Perhaps getting frigates at tail-end of production line can be because PLAN would wanted to fill its required numbers first before allowing for export.

Is there any official report for weapons upgrade on F22Ps yet ?
 

sparten

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The F-22P and el-Fateh-class are both based on Type-053H3. It was a dated design taken to its max from a capability standpoint. Interestingly, the F-22P was going to be similar to the el-Fateh, but the PN opted to scale it back. It was probably a cost-saving measure, but I think the PN saw F-22P's ceiling and didn't want to invest too much into it.
F22P frigate (Zulifqar class) was made in the 1990's when we had a financial cruch and the Navy was low on our priority.
The new Tughrail and the Babars and Jinnah's are being made at a time when the PN is the centerpeice of our defence strategy.
Now my personal concept is a Carrier. Based off either the PNS Mowain hull or a commercial KSEW hull.
STOBAR, meaning ski jump and arresting cables.
JF17B based carrier fighter. 2 squardrons, meaning 20-24 A/C.
K8 based tankers/ASW craft 6-10
6-8 helos
32-44 aircraft total.
Two vessels.
 

JawadKKhan

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Now my personal concept is a Carrier. Based off either the PNS Mowain hull or a commercial KSEW hull.
STOBAR, meaning ski jump and arresting cables.
JF17B based carrier fighter. 2 squardrons, meaning 20-24 A/C.
K8 based tankers/ASW craft 6-10
6-8 helos
32-44 aircraft total.
Two vessels.
That's all sounds very nice but with current state of economy its not going to happen. Its too expensive venture even if much of it is locally produced. Our choices are extremely limited when we have a low budget.

We are throwing massive funds every month down the drain to PIA, railways, and several govt owned enterprises which are going on loss since bhutto nationalized them and Jiyalas were inducted in those. State needs to show some will. Privatize those institutions by force. We can do wonders if we effectively govern the country but no direction is there.
 

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